After my private, worth spending a little time in the 300?

[johnnyb]

I've only flown the R22 up to this point.

Once I've completed my private, would it be beneficial to fly the 300 - a few lessons maybe?

I guess the question really is, will spending some time flying the 300 and manually managing the throttle make me a better pilot?

And/or if the answer is yes, is it better to do it at a later stage, say after I finish my commercial?

 

I love flying the R22 and will continue all the way up to CFII flying Robbies, but my focus is on safety and becoming good at the basics, giving myself the best foundation I can.

Especially after some EP's, e.g. autos, hover-autos, governor off, where manual throttle control is part of the procedure, I was wondering if this would be a good idea.

The one thing I'd love to believe is that one day when I get low-rpm that I would be able to instinctively lower the collective and roll the throttle on, simultaneously, and immediately.

 

Does the governor make you less sensitive to the throttle?

[Carpenter]

Here's my 2 cents. If you are heavier than 175 lbs, then do all remaining training in S300, R44, or other. Don't due all training in R22 because the likelyhood of getting that teaching job is virtually zero if you way much more than that. Fly safe and enjoy!

Edited July 17, 2012 by Carpenter

[akscott60]

When I did manual throttle training in the Army in my Kiowa, it opened my eyes quite a bit. I developed a greater understanding of control, power, rotor rpm, etc and how they all work together.

Edited July 17, 2012 by akscott60

[johnnyb]

If you are heavier than 175 lbs, then do all remaining training in S300, R44, or other.

 

I'm around 190, which is a healthy weight for being 6ft3, I wouldn't want to lose more weight!

I'd love to train in the 44 (who wouldn't), but it's a simple case of cost, no way I could afford that, sadly.

 

I developed a greater understanding of control, power, rotor rpm, etc and how they all work together.

 

Understanding is a great thing. I have a pretty decent understanding of the inter-relationships of those subsystems though. It's not the cognitive aspects so much that I'm after, more the feeling of flying managing the throttle and how to get good at it early on. I'm sure it takes years and years of flying

Theoretically in a 22 you have less than 2 seconds to recover your RPM when the sheet hits the proverbial fan, that aspect scares me more than anything else.

[nightsta1ker]

 

Theoretically in a 22 you have less than 2 seconds to recover your RPM when the sheet hits the proverbial fan, that aspect scares me more than anything else.

 

That's true in about any helicopter. Chop the throttle on a 300 with two people aboard and those RPMS drop very quickly. Regardless of type, you HAVE to recognize and immediately react to a loss of power or you will quickly become a very helpless passenger.

 

Now, regarding the OP, I would say yes, some 300 time will do you good. As will turning the governor off on your R22 and managing the RPM without it. 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.

Both aircraft have many other features that make them different from each other. The 300 also has motorized cyclic trim, a traditional cyclic, a more complex start procedure (not to mention a fuel injected engine, which has it's advantages as well as disadvantages) and more robust handling characteristics. You could learn a lot of new things with some 300 time. What do you really hope to get out of it though other than an experience in a different make? If you plan on being a career pilot, save your money for the next rating.

[superstallion6113]

Yep. And it happens that fast in an R44 R2 as well. I had my first throttle chop by my instructor yesterday and in a half a second the rotor rpm was at about 95%, at which point it climb back up since I had entered my auto.

Edited July 17, 2012 by superstallion6113

[johnnyb]

What do you really hope to get out of it though other than an experience in a different make?

 

I don't have my R22 POH with me, but it states something in the line of flying with the governor turned off is prohibited unless it's for the purpose of emergency training or malfunction. I could be wrong on the exact wording. Also the practicing EP's are prohibited where I train when soloing or when a CFI is absent. Other than EP training (which just isn't enough exposure to manual throttle techniques) I was wondering whether I would benefit from the 300. I was just wondering whether the governor breeds complacency and whether some manual control would help in teaching me throttle awareness...

Just trying to become a really confident and safe pilot

[pilot#476398]

I've only flown the R22 up to this point.

Once I've completed my private, would it be beneficial to fly the 300 - a few lessons maybe?

I guess the question really is, will spending some time flying the 300 and manually managing the throttle make me a better pilot?

And/or if the answer is yes, is it better to do it at a later stage, say after I finish my commercial?

 

I love flying the R22 and will continue all the way up to CFII flying Robbies, but my focus is on safety and becoming good at the basics, giving myself the best foundation I can.

Especially after some EP's, e.g. autos, hover-autos, governor off, where manual throttle control is part of the procedure, I was wondering if this would be a good idea.

The one thing I'd love to believe is that one day when I get low-rpm that I would be able to instinctively lower the collective and roll the throttle on, simultaneously, and immediately.

 

Does the governor make you less sensitive to the throttle?

 

In my experience flying the 300, manually adjusting the throttle didn't make me feel like I was any better a pilot. As far as governor off, the throttle in the 300 is too different from the 22 to really improve your skills in the 22. You can adjust the throttle in the 300 with just your thumb and index finger, but the 22 is just to sticky for that! I personnaly don't think manually adjusting the throttle is that big a deal.

 

Getting your IR in the 300 might be a good idea. It can help you save some money (unless they have, and you're light enough for an R22 IR trainer?) and it MAY make you more marketable as a cfii?

 

Keep in mind though, while doing autos in the 300 the rpm needle moves in the opposite direction of the one in the 22, therefore it takes the opposite response (i.e. don't follow the needle with the collective in the 300)!

[JBX11B]

As part of your SFAR 73 endorsement, you should be very comfortable flying with the gov off, really not a big deal as our local examiner put it, also added that the R22's did not have governers 'till the mid 90's or so. You will be more aware of engine and rotor sound, anticipate correlator action. You'll actually reduce throttle as you pull pitch to a hover to counter the correlator and keep NR at top of the green, and just squeeze the throttle in or out to adjust to different flt regimes.

You may have to demonstrate this on your checkride.

[nightsta1ker]

I don't have my R22 POH with me, but it states something in the line of flying with the governor turned off is prohibited unless it's for the purpose of emergency training or malfunction. I could be wrong on the exact wording. Also the practicing EP's are prohibited where I train when soloing or when a CFI is absent. Other than EP training (which just isn't enough exposure to manual throttle techniques) I was wondering whether I would benefit from the 300. I was just wondering whether the governor breeds complacency and whether some manual control would help in teaching me throttle awareness...

Just trying to become a really confident and safe pilot

 

Yes, Frankie threw that in there because he basically got peeved that pilots were not using his governor. That got thrown in there before they updated it though. From what I understand the old governor was really laggy and operators were pulling the circuit breaker and zip-tying it and just controlling the throttle manually. Frank just about had a conniption when he found out (at least that's the story one old crusty CFI at one of my schools told me).

 

The throttle thing WILL give you a greater awareness of the relationship between the rotor and the engine, but considering just about every modern helicopter out there has a governor, I wouldn't say it's going to be an edge you really need.

 

I'm not trying to talk you out of flying the 300. It's a great aircraft. I prefer teaching in them over the R22, and if you want the experience go for it. But I'm not going to BS you either. A helicopter is a helicopter. And if you are just going to get back into an R22 for more training later, you might bring some bad habits back with you.

[Helipilot PTK]

I had the opportunity to fly a Bell 47 G2 helicopter. If you want to intimately learn how every thing works in connection with another, I suggest you try flying one of those. Throttle inward... NOW lower the collective. Awesome helicopter with lots of history behind it.

[johnnyb]

the 22 is just to sticky for that

 

So true!

 

Getting your IR in the 300 might be a good idea. It can help you save some money (unless they have, and you're light enough for an R22 IR trainer?) and it MAY make you more marketable as a cfii?

 

None of the 22's are instrument equipped where I train, IR in a 300, haven't considered that. Sounds like a solid plan to me.

 

Keep in mind though, while doing autos in the 300 the rpm needle moves in the opposite direction of the one in the 22, therefore it takes the opposite response (i.e. don't follow the needle with the collective in the 300)!

 

Good grief, didn't know that!

Looking forward already!

Thanks for the info, very informative!

 

 

As part of your SFAR 73 endorsement, you should be very comfortable flying with the gov off, really not a big deal as our local examiner put it, also added that the R22's did not have governers 'till the mid 90's or so. You will be more aware of engine and rotor sound, anticipate correlator action. You'll actually reduce throttle as you pull pitch to a hover to counter the correlator and keep NR at top of the green, and just squeeze the throttle in or out to adjust to different flt regimes.

You may have to demonstrate this on your checkride.

 

Thanks for making me more nervous with my checkride coming up than I already am!

Just kidding

I was reasonably comfortable with manual throttle control, in the 22 it's pretty much a case of very gentle adjustments. Whether it's enough exposure and experience to rely on for when the day comes that I really need it is another story which is why I was considering the benefits of flying the 300.

 

And if you are just going to get back into an R22 for more training later, you might bring some bad habits back with you.

 

That's a really good point, thank you!

[rotormandan]

Yes fly the 300 but get at least 50 hours in it at least some vfr if you go the insrtument route with it. Flying different aircraft is definately a good thing. Also I say 50 hours so it could actually be helpful for getting that 1st job. If your school has one, get time in it so your more valuable to them. You should fly all types of helicopters your school has. If you're unlucky and your school doesn't hire you then you have more options for the hard to find 1st job.

[Pohi]

I agree that it can't hurt to get time in a variety of different airframes.

 

As far as gov off in a 22, I found it really helped people pay more attention to the sounds that the helicopter makes while the rotor speeds up or slows down. I'd have them go from on the ground, through a pattern, hover and set down without getting the horn or rpm too high. After a lap or two, there was rarely an issue in doing that.

 

After the gov off training, low rpm recognition and recovery was a non issue, as well as a major improvement in rpm control during autos. After learning to listen to the helicopter during gov off, they could pick up those changes during autos much quicker and this reduced the chasing the rpm so much in autos.

 

 

[nightsta1ker]

I agree that it can't hurt to get time in a variety of different airframes.

 

As far as gov off in a 22, I found it really helped people pay more attention to the sounds that the helicopter makes while the rotor speeds up or slows down. I'd have them go from on the ground, through a pattern, hover and set down without getting the horn or rpm too high. After a lap or two, there was rarely an issue in doing that.

 

After the gov off training, low rpm recognition and recovery was a non issue, as well as a major improvement in rpm control during autos. After learning to listen to the helicopter during gov off, they could pick up those changes during autos much quicker and this reduced the chasing the rpm so much in autos.

 

On that topic, flying the 300 is basically the same, except no horn to let you know when you are too low. You have to listen to the sound of the RPMs. If pitch goes up, you're too high, if it goes down, you're too low. It becomes second nature pretty quickly, and that skill by itself is not worth forking out the dough for time in the aircraft.

 

If you want to get some 300 time, do it for another reason, even if that reason is purely curiosity.

[pilot#476398]

On that topic, flying the 300 is basically the same, except no horn to let you know when you are too low. You have to listen to the sound of the RPMs.

 

Actually there is a low-rpm horn in the CBi, which is very,very, very helpful to a Robbie guy while he first tries to fly one! As I mentioned, in the auto the rpm needle moves in the opposite direction as the 22. I kept instnctively raising the collective as the needle went up, then the horn would come on, and I would instinctively lower it,...it was actually rather amusing in retrospect!

 

Training my ear to hear high rpm (in the auto) was easy, low rpm would take much more practice. If you're a 300 cfi, be mindful of the transitioning 22 guys in the autos!

[nightsta1ker]

Actually there is a low-rpm horn in the CBi, which is very,very, very helpful to a Robbie guy while he first tries to fly one! As I mentioned, in the auto the rpm needle moves in the opposite direction as the 22. I kept instnctively raising the collective as the needle went up, then the horn would come on, and I would instinctively lower it,...it was actually rather amusing in retrospect!

 

Training my ear to hear high rpm (in the auto) was easy, low rpm would take much more practice. If you're a 300 cfi, be mindful of the transitioning 22 guys in the autos!

 

Never flown a CBi, So I wouldn't know. Also never had the problem distinguishing the rotor RPM needles. But then again, I did my primary training in the 300C, then transitioned to the 22. Seemed to be a much easier transition than it is for guys doing the opposite.