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Job postings for lower then what the company will accept


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So I've been "Hire-able" (More then 1000 PIC) for a bigger and better job now since about March. and I've turned in my resume for quite a few places. I've got 2 major frustrations/questions. (btw.... I'm pretty sure I know the answers to these questions already, I'm just seeing what you guys all think).

 

#1 I've turned in a couple resumes to places that have job postings for 500, 1000, 1500 hours PIC. After turning in a resume I usually give the place a call a little bit later just to make sure they got it, and to talk to the people for a little bit. After talking with the people for a little bit I usually get into the discussion of what are they really looking for and it's almost always about 500 hours more then what was in the job posting. Example.... I turned a resume into a place with 500 PIC minimums. After talking with them I found out they will not hire anyone with less then 1200 PIC and that's "FIRM!" according to the HR person. I've even had one tell me they wouldn't hire with less then 2000 and they listed it at 1000. So why is there the gap? Why would you post a job with a minimum you never intended to hire at? Doesn't it seem like you'd be getting a crapton more resume's that you just have to sift through?

 

#2 How hard is it to send out an email that just says "I'm sorry, you suck, we will not hire you!" Out of the 12 places I've sent resumes to, so far I've only EVER got 1 reply that said "While your resume does have desirable qualifications for our company. We are sorry, but right now we don't have any openings with your experience range." That was awesome! Thank you! At least now I know that it was my lack of hours that didn't get the job... Not that my resume was screwed up, our you didn't like what was said in my cover letter. But of course the problem is now, I want to work for that company even more because of that response.

 

Ok, I'll step down from my soapbox now. I understand that companies receive 1000's of resumes and sending a response back just isn't always fees-able to everyone. I also understand that it is all about who you know and networking. I've had friends turn stuff in for me directly to the persons making the decisions at 4 different places and still not gotten anything. I'm just frustrated and needed to vent. Thanks for listening everyone (Even if you didn't want to).

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I think I get where u r coming from...years ago I heard similar arguements and sometimes heard the response from operators "we want more hours if all they have is Robbie time"...or something to that effect and I'm sure many here have heard similar...so is their "1000" minimum or whatever number a true minimum...that just depends on who you are or what kind of flying you have done....good question.

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I think one of the issues is that although you may have the minimums but a large number of people applying will have much more than that, and depending on the job of course, will apply. I'm sure there are tons of people with 1500+ trying to get out of teaching, etc. Usually the minimums are insurance minimums and not necessarily realistic requirements. I don't know why they would put down 500hrs for a 1200hr postion. It's like Fort Rucker, they say 500hrs but realistically you need at least 2000 or so.

 

All I can say is keep trying. Meet people and go to the heli-success, etc. You will land something eventually (no pun intended!)

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I also feel your pain. When I was looking for jobs I would apply to tons where I met their listed minumums and only got 1 or 2 responses back that they even got my resume. It is sad but I was greatful to even get a negative response back.

 

As far as low listed minimums and wanting more, that situation I have never understood. The company I work for currently had minimums that I spent almost a year of my time and money to meet, only to find out that when I got hired, that specific type of time didnt matter to them. None of the people that I got hired with had not met those listed minimums.

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It is a tough industry to understand, and make work for you, and not just on the helo side. A lot of the same issues apply to the fixed wing side. I don't know if it helps, but it's the employer's market. Depending on the estimated amount of replies they get for any job listing, they can have any number of applicants to choose from, and be picky about which one is the perfect fit. They adjust the desired number of responses by hours that they list in a posting. If there was a mythical pilot shortage, that everyone talks about, it would be an employees market, and they would have their choice of any number of flying jobs to find the perfect fit. Either way, it's a numbers game depending who has the upper hand on the numbers.

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It is sad but I was greatful to even get a negative response back.

I couldn't agree with you more on this Pohi! and as a follow up to Apiaguy, I totally understand that if all you have is R22 time or 300 time then they would of course want a little more from you, I have a large portion of my time in 206's and I've been applying to "No turbine time required" jobs, and this situation still applies. Anyway...

 

Thanks for the responses and support guys. I'm glad this didn't turn into another "Network network network" conversation, that wasn't my intentions. I've been to Heli-success in the past, and will be going again this year, and I know something will happen eventually, I just needed to vent for a little. Thanks!

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I think one of the issues is that although you may have the minimums but a large number of people applying will have much more than that, and depending on the job of course, will apply. I'm sure there are tons of people with 1500+ trying to get out of teaching, etc. Usually the minimums are insurance minimums and not necessarily realistic requirements. I don't know why they would put down 500hrs for a 1200hr postion. It's like Fort Rucker, they say 500hrs but realistically you need at least 2000 or so.

 

All I can say is keep trying. Meet people and go to the heli-success, etc. You will land something eventually (no pun intended!)

 

? Do you mean working for URS?

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I know a guy working for URS at Ft Rucker who got hired with 900hrs TT helicopter.....actually, 900hrs TOTAL. No military experience at all and only about 300hrs dual given. It was all 500E time, but still.........

 

I too know of 3 guys that went to Rucker. All three were sitting right at 1000 to 1200 hours with about 800 - 900 Dual given and slightly under 500 hrs B206 time. 2 of them worked there for a year and are now out flying for Bristow. The other is still at Rucker as far as I know.

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Do you mean working for URS?

 

Yeah thats what I meant. I was talking about that job from an aspect of CFI with no turbine. I'm sure the 500+ turbine hours help a lot.

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#1 I've turned in a couple resumes to places that have job postings for 500, 1000, 1500 hours PIC. After turning in a resume I usually give the place a call a little bit later just to make sure they got it, and to talk to the people for a little bit. After talking with the people for a little bit I usually get into the discussion of what are they really looking for and it's almost always about 500 hours more then what was in the job posting. Example.... I turned a resume into a place with 500 PIC minimums. After talking with them I found out they will not hire anyone with less then 1200 PIC and that's "FIRM!" according to the HR person. I've even had one tell me they wouldn't hire with less then 2000 and they listed it at 1000. So why is there the gap? Why would you post a job with a minimum you never intended to hire at? Doesn't it seem like you'd be getting a crapton more resume's that you just have to sift through?

 

#2 How hard is it to send out an email that just says "I'm sorry, you suck, we will not hire you!" Out of the 12 places I've sent resumes to, so far I've only EVER got 1 reply that said "While your resume does have desirable qualifications for our company. We are sorry, but right now we don't have any openings with your experience range." That was awesome! Thank you! At least now I know that it was my lack of hours that didn't get the job... Not that my resume was screwed up, our you didn't like what was said in my cover letter. But of course the problem is now, I want to work for that company even more because of that response.

 

#1. Sometimes a gap is presented because they simply don't want to talk to you, -at that moment. Don't take it personally. It's kind of like being an actor. You'll be rejected 1000 times until you get that one big break and, when that happens, the doors will open up. Know this; IF at the moment when you called, they had an immediate need for a pilot, your stock increased 10 fold. That's why you should keep calling. Grow skin and get used to rejection. It's a part of this business.

 

#2. Understand, helicopter companies are in the business of operating helicopters. Not as an interpersonal relationship firm. Their busy and have little time to send a "thanks but, no thanks" note to the bazillion resumes they've received. Again, don't take it personally by a non-reply. Shoot, someday, you may be in the position to respond to resumes. If that happens, you can choose to spend the (nonproductive) time replying, -or not.

Edited by Spike
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To the original post- it could be that positions are posted with minimal acceptable qualifications while they're hoping and intending to hire more experience, and are getting it. Had that not happened, they might have hired at the minimums.

 

But Spike's right on at least three counts:

Rejection is a big part of the business. How you deal with it and keep doors open for further contact is the trick;

The pilot's the very, very last piece in the puzzle getting and keeping an operation up;

And finally- the HR/CP at some companies are busy, BUSY, B-U-S-Y! Nothing personal or inconsiderate. When you're bailing as fast as you can to keep the boat afloat, "please and thank you" other social niceties might slip.

Edited by Wally
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You also have to understand that some companies require that all positions be posted publicly. The person doing the hiring may already have someone they intend to hire, or someone in the company they intend to promote, but the job has to be posted regardless. These jobs will never be given to an outside applicant, it's just eyewash. There is lots of eyewash in this and every other industry, and you may as well get used to it. These are mostly other than entry-level jobs, but not always. Often the hirer already has someone (s)he intends to hire, but has to advertise regardless. Getting to be the one already on the inside is the trick.

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You also have to understand that some companies require that all positions be posted publicly. The person doing the hiring may already have someone they intend to hire, or someone in the company they intend to promote, but the job has to be posted regardless. These jobs will never be given to an outside applicant, it's just eyewash. There is lots of eyewash in this and every other industry, and you may as well get used to it. These are mostly other than entry-level jobs, but not always. Often the hirer already has someone (s)he intends to hire, but has to advertise regardless. Getting to be the one already on the inside is the trick.

 

I reiterate!

 

#1 Like hot chicks, some employers get off on teasing hopefuls!

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You also have to understand that some companies require that all positions be posted publicly. The person doing the hiring may already have someone they intend to hire, or someone in the company they intend to promote, but the job has to be posted regardless. .... Often the hirer already has someone (s)he intends to hire, but has to advertise regardless. Getting to be the one already on the inside is the trick.

 

Those job postings can be quite silly and obvious to spot....

 

Requirements;

 

4000 hours total helicopter time

3000 hours turbine

1500 hours in OH-58

1000 hours 407

500 hours MD500E

500 hours 206L3

600 hours night

2500 hours mountain time

First name starts with a "B", married to someone whose wife has a name of Susan

Weight between 200-210

Height 6'3"

Must like long walks on the beach

 

Only qualified pilots will be considered

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I called about a job a few years back in LE. I flat out asked the Chief Pilot if this was seriously an open position or was it a posting to satisfy legal requirements. I explained, I am going to spend a lot of money to come out there and look around and interview, cop to cop, whats the deal.

 

He said, "Honestly, one of the applicants has already been flying in the position for about a year. We are just making it official so we have to advertise it. But you can still apply if you want to." When the requirements look like someones resume was cut and pasted...... in police work we call that a clue :D

 

"I appreciate your time" I said

Edited by Flying Pig
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So I've been "Hire-able" (More then 1000 PIC) for a bigger and better job now since about March. and I've turned in my resume for quite a few places. I've got 2 major frustrations/questions. (btw.... I'm pretty sure I know the answers to these questions already, I'm just seeing what you guys all think).

 

Ok, I'll step down from my soapbox now. I understand that companies receive 1000's of resumes and sending a response back just isn't always fees-able to everyone. I also understand that it is all about who you know and networking. I've had friends turn stuff in for me directly to the persons making the decisions at 4 different places and still not gotten anything. I'm just frustrated and needed to vent. Thanks for listening everyone (Even if you didn't want to).

 

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. -Albert Einstein

 

Insanity may be a strong word for this instance but the overall meaning of Albert's quote is clear. That is, if you don't get the results you like, then change what you are doing.

 

Believing one can obtain a helicopter job by simply submitting a resume is like believing you can fly a space shuttle with a private airplane license. Furthermore, believing you can get lucky by calling that hot chick once is like believing you're actually getting lucky in a brothel.

 

Turn your frustration into action. If you want to work for a specific company, then call them and ask what you need to do be considered. After that, keep calling periodically and keep them abreast of what you are doing to gain the experience which *they* suggested. When you talk with them, be yourself and get to know them. If possible visit in person. Maybe someday soon thereafter, they'll think of you when the need arises, OR, when they hear of a need by another operator.

 

For the most part, helicopter folks are good people who fully understand your plight and will genuinely want to help but, they'll need to see the desire above and beyond the minimum.

Edited by Spike
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I "knew somebody", but that was only to check their happiness with the company when I heard that they were hiring. Then I got to "know somebody" by introducing myself to the people involved. It's worked every time since 1982- not counting the dozen or so dead ends.

 

I did a door-to-door gig (for a short while- very hard work) back when I wanted to be "normal", a non-aviator. "No" isn't an answer, it's a signal.

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Why would you post a job with a minimum you never intended to hire at?

 

Hiring minimums are just that: minimums.

 

Whether you qualify for the minimums or not is irrelevant, if other applicants are more qualified than you. Your frustration seems to stem from learning that you were never actually qualified to compete for the job.

 

Published minimums are not the same as competitive minimums. When a job vacancy is put together, a company may set out the minimum insurance requirements, or the minimum contractual requirements. They may do this knowing that pilots with far greater qualifications are available, and will apply for the job.

 

The experience level of other applicants competing for the job set the real standard. If you have a thousand hours and everyone else has ten thousand, guess what? The competitive minimums just became ten thousand hours, because without at least being as qualified as everyone else, you don't stack up. Unless you have some overriding skill, ability, or trait to offer the employer, why should you be considered over better-suited applicants?

 

How hard is it to send out an email that just says "I'm sorry, you suck, we will not hire you!"

 

Who's doing the hiring? You, or the company? Who is the beggar and who is the chooser? You've not been chosen. Does that obligate the company to you in some way? The company is busy choosing. The company has not chosen you. Get over it.

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A lot of guys would love to be professional golfers. The nice thing about being a professional golfer is you never have to go through a traditional employee's interview and hiring process. There are no traditional minimums, and it's all up to the individual to perform at the level it takes to make the cut.

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