building turbine time in experimental??

[Spike]

In addition to Pohi’s comments; the people you speak of who mention the turbine as a “course” are more-than-likely involved with training and thus, selling the course. Furthermore, lots of these individuals are CFI’s who have yet gone beyond entry-level training and therefore have limited experience out in what we call “the real world” of the helicopter business. We, who speak of a turbine as a “job”, have been down the path I spoke of in the above post and thus understand not only the path, but the inherent pitfalls and shortcomings of claims by flight schools in order to attract business. In short, a turbine transition course will not get you any closer to an entry-level CFI position…..

In the end, don’t be even remotely concerned about a turbine. Doing so is putting the cart before the horse and can hinder your overall perspective of the path. Again, get qualified ala-CFII, get hired as an instructor and build time while teaching. The rest, including turbines, will fall into place on its own…..

[Flying Pig]

Word! Your total helicopter time is what you need to be focused on. Not a bunch of 3-5hr specialty courses in a turbine at $1000 an hour.

[JohnLeePettimore]

I was just curious as to what it was. I am trying to soak up as much knowledge as I can about the industry now, because I have a feeling that I am going to by psychotically busy once school starts. I have been reading a lot on this forum over the past few days. It's actually changed my opinion somewhat. I came in here thinking that GoM was a stepping stone job. How very wrong I was. That seems to be (from the posts I've read) more of what I am looking for. But for now, I'll settle for the job of just learning to fly proficiently. I have been enjoying lurking around on here. This is a lot different than the forums that I am used to (being an auto/diesel mechanic for the past decade and a half) in all respects.

[cburg]

This is a lot different than the forums that I am used to (being an auto/diesel mechanic for the past decade and a half) in all respects.

Interesting...how so?

 

I mostly do various flying forums (airplanes, trikes, gyros, PPCs, PPGs), so it's about the same.

 

I do notice that several other forums are really big on sharing photos, videos, and adventures. This is different in that regard. This is more professional and most of the others are more recreational. I like both formats...learn different stuff and perspectives.

 

Training objectives are completely different for strictly recreational pilots.

[Flying Pig]

"I read it for the articles".

[cburg]

 

objectives are completely different for strictly recreational pilots.

Like when Stan showed the clip of a long hover taxi in his HeliCycle. For us rec pilots it's part of the fun, but for pros it's a rediculous waste of time and fuel.

[pilot#476398]

Like when Stan showed the clip of a long hover taxi in his HeliCycle. For us rec pilots it's part of the fun, but for pros it's a rediculous waste of time and fuel.

 

"Just burning holes in the sky" is what they call that type of stuff. For them every flight must have a purpose to it.

[cburg]

 

"Just burning holes in the sky" is what they call that type of stuff. For them every flight must have a purpose to it.

Yes, we also call it "just smashing bugs"

 

I like chasing my shadow and "bombing" with my shadow. This is an old hang gliding past time.

 

Most fly-ins have a egg/flour sack drop competition, and seldom does anybody get close.

 

Helium balloon popping is another (not with helicopters).

 

Power off spot landing comps often result in some crashes...too much T-factor.

[aeroscout]

"I read it for the articles".

I read between the lines.

It cuts down on reading when there's only one.

[avbug]

"Just burning holes in the sky" is what they call that type of stuff. For them every flight must have a purpose to it.

 

 

"Them?" Aren't you constantly whining about wanting to be one of "them?"

 

Ah, yes. You're an expert on all things in professional aviation...just not a part of it. Therefore, to you, it's "them." The other guys. The part of the crowd you're not, but about which you know all.

[pilot#476398]

Damn! You follow me around like a wounded puppy dog! If you were a chick, I'd swear you have a crush on me!

[Spike]

For us rec pilots it's part of the fun, but for pros it's a rediculous waste of time and fuel.

I’m thinking, the “pros” don’t really concern themselves about it one way or another… Even so, my employer requires me to have a “purpose” when I fly and that’s WHY I get paid to do it……..

[Joe_P148]

Hours mean nothing.... Past a certain point. The type of hours you have means everything.

 

No offense to all the R22 stick bunnies out there but building time in the pattern at the same airport day in day out logging your time in your log book is purely superficial hours for your career.

[pilot#476398]

Hours mean nothing.... Past a certain point. The type of hours you have means everything.

 

No offense to all the R22 stick bunnies out there but building time in the pattern at the same airport day in day out logging your time in your log book is purely superficial hours for your career.

 

I think you're thinking about tour pilots, flying around the same 5 minute pattern over the parking lot all day long (or "flying the race track" as one ex-tour pilot I met put it).

 

"stick bunnies",...that's cute. I think I like that better than "robbie ranger".

[Spike]

Hours mean nothing.... Past a certain point. The type of hours you have means everything.

 

No offense to all the R22 stick bunnies out there but building time in the pattern at the same airport day in day out logging your time in your log book is purely superficial hours for your career.

This is true for anyone, in any type of machine, R22, Blackhawk or otherwise. And while todays training environment is different then when I was a “R22 stick bunny”, that experience allowed me to be gainfully employed for years and something which commercial employers have claimed as “valuable” experience for which they desire…..

 

In my experience, one of the most important qualities a pilot needs to succeed in this business is a complete understanding of the helicopter industry and how it works………

Edited April 18, 2014 by Spike

[JohnLeePettimore]

What I meant when I said that this forum is different is that members here genuinely try to help each other out on a much more personal level than i have ever seen In mass on a forum. It reminds me of hanging out in the hanger with my Dad and his buddies when I was a kid. I've been on other forms where there are a few outstanding guys and a flood of jackasses. Not seeing to be the case here. Glad I found this place.

[Joe_P148]

 

I think you're thinking about tour pilots, flying around the same 5 minute pattern over the parking lot all day long (or "flying the race track" as one ex-tour pilot I met put it).

 

"stick bunnies",...that's cute. I think I like that better than "robbie ranger".

 

Absolutley!

 

But let me explain my perspective of this. I'm not just referring to R22's when I use the term "stick bunnies". The term stick bunny for me is defined as a type of pilot that spends all of their time in a controlled environment. Think of a carnival "bunny" ride it rotates in a circle and you just sit there with little control over the experience. Regardless of the airframe.

 

Understanding that flying traffic patterns does in fact build a good mechanical understanding of flying and builds experience at controlling the aircraft, I wont negate that the fact that those hours are in fact, valuable.

 

However, when I refer to hours meaning nothing I mean that you can have all the hours in the world, but what makes you a valuable pilot? Experiences, Leadership, Professionalism, Decision making, knowledge of your craft and industry.

 

How many junior CFI's are going to find themselves making decision calls on weather, airspace, fuel, cg, or power requirements, outside of the training environment? some, but a majority will not, while building time in the pattern.

 

On the military side, we always look at peoples hours as a sign of their seniority and proficiency as an aviator. We rarely actually look at the type of hours that the pilot has. I don't mean, Day, Night, NVG, Wx time. I mean, enroute, landings, assaults, over water and type of missions flown.

 

We see this in our attack helicopter communities as they spend a lot of time in orbits. It's common for an attack pilot with 2,000 hrs to have over half of it being in a orbit in some god forsaken dessert at 2,000ft AGL plus. I'm not taking away from that pilot's experiences. But, take another military aviator who has been flying at the school teaching students for 3 years. His or Her experiences are all based off of flying in a controlled environment, with limited to no exposure to the NAS (National Airspace System), because they are flying in corridors in MOAs.

 

Hours is nothing more than a check the block for insurance liabilities. Each individual pilot's abilities should be based off of a case by case basis of maturity, judgment, experience and hours not just how many hours someone has accrued in a logbook.

[Flying Pig]

In most cases, until you have about 1500hrs, nobody cares what type of flying you've done. So my advice, get to that 1500hrs as fast as you can, however you can (excluding the heli-cycle route) then work on getting a specialty. If your route to that 1500 or better yet, 2000 can be specialized, of course get it. But beyond that.... run for the 1500hr line and don't stop for breath until you pass it.

[avbug]

Hours mean absolutely nothing. Experience is everything. Two pilots fly for an hour, doing the same thing; one comes away with an hour of time in a logbook, one comes away with an hour of experience. There IS a difference.

 

Two pilots fly for an hour. One flies straight and level in cruise, another maneuvers and concentrates on activities involving training, judgement, or skill. Experience counts far more than mere hours.

 

If you want to fill your logbook and don't want any effort, then falsify it. Make it up, Invent it. You'll have a logbook worth exactly as much.

 

Experience can't be falsified.

 

I find that if flying with an unknown aviator, I already know most of what I need to know about him/her before we ever get to the aircraft. Going flying only confirms what's known.

 

Hours, to some extent, are a root qualifier for a particular job in terms of "minimums" for which the employer seeks. What really counts in a job application or interview, however, isn't meeting the minimum hours advertised, as jobs rarely go to the minimally qualified applicant. What counts is being qualified for the job, which often involves specific experience (mountain, long line, fire, type of aircraft, etc), and just as important as minimum qualification, is competitive qualification.

 

One may meet the published minimums for the job, but that's just to get a foot in the door: that's just to apply. Competitive minimums are the unspoken and unadvertised minimums you'll need to compete with the other applicants for the job. The job may ask for 1,500 hours total time, but if every other applicant has 10,000 hours of relevant experience and time in type, then that's what you'll need to compete against, and consequently the minimum level you'll need to be competitive for the job.

 

It's not always hours, not always relevant experience. The employer needs to feel you can fit in with the operation. You need to have a reliable work history. Recommendations often weigh heavily. Living locally sometimes helps. An applicant met in person may stand a much better chance than one who sends a resume. Availability is often a deciding factor, and so on.

 

Raw hours by themselves don't mean a lot.

 

You may be a 25,000 hour tour pilot, but when you get on your first fire, you're a one hour fire pilot. Keep that in mind. A 25,000 hour airline pilot learning aerobatics is a student pilot. One may have flown for 30 years, but if one flies into a hillside, it's only the last five seconds of that career that really matter. Keep that in mind, too. Whatever experience lies behind you is good, if you've taken advantage of it to internalize it and improve your judgement (and skill), but the one that counts is the next one, the one you're about to fly. Everything else is fluff.

[Spike]

The perverbial 1500 should be reached while at your first job. That is, it's not wise to think that bumping around from job-to-job below the 1500 is a good thinng to do. Therefore, the first job should have the ability to do many different things, or at minimum, simulate different things is the best avenue. I'll let the reader figure out the rest...... Even so, in my experience, employers want a sufficent numbers of hours to get you to the interview and bulk of those hours should be gained while doing different things.... And, it's been said before but worth saying again, in his business, it would be wrong to assume the "cream of the crop" always rise to the top......

[Flying Pig]

What Im referring to is initially. Your main goal should be getting to 1500. If something else in the way of a specialty lands in your lap then of course run with it. But prior to 1500, you shouldn't be concerned about long line courses, turbine transition courses, etc. Any extra money you have laying around should be going towards time. Don't pay $5000 for a long line course in an MD500 when you have 900hrs. Take that money and do night Xctrys.

 

Maybe I should add: "Individual experiences may vary."

Edited April 18, 2014 by Flying Pig

[avbug]

That's very true. To an inexperienced pilot, a "turbine transition" sounds like a great investment. The thrill of getting a few hours of turbine time at a ridiculously high expense quickly pales when one sees that three or five hours of turbine time really means absolutely nothing. You may go on to be flying eight hundred hours a year of turbine time, and will wish you had your money back.

[Flying Pig]

I did one back in the day in a 500 and ended up flying airplanes for the next 4 years. By the time I got into 500, my agency taught me how to fly it. I initially got it so I would know something about the 500 but got tapped to be the unit airplane pilot first. Yeah..... that was $5000 I wish was still sitting in my account. Getting into a 500 or a Jet Ranger after flying a piston, a 300C in my case, is really almost a disappointing non-issue. It neat, don't get me wrong. But not $5000 neat.

[avbug]

That's the dirty secret: turbines are easier to operate and fly.

[pilot#476398]

I did one back in the day in a 500 and ended up flying airplanes for the next 4 years. By the time I got into 500, my agency taught me how to fly it. I initially got it so I would know something about the 500 but got tapped to be the unit airplane pilot first. Yeah..... that was $5000 I wish was still sitting in my account. Getting into a 500 or a Jet Ranger after flying a piston, a 300C in my case, is really almost a disappointing non-issue. It neat, don't get me wrong. But not $5000 neat.

 

Yeah, me too!

 

Thing is, we're not the one's paying for it these days,...and what would you do with "free money"?