The industry taboo subject....."oh no he didnt"

[pilot#476398]

Legit commercial gigs at 500 hours? I've heard that sales pitch before!

[helonorth]

 

By having the expectation they’d act like professionals and of course, pay them well……

Good luck with that. That would be some school, all right...

[Wally]

Flight instruction is such an intensely personal experience that I would be very careful about posting blame to a company. I would bet that Silver State turned out a fair few very competent aviators, as any good instructor at any school would. and those might fairly speak well of that experience.

 

If a business promises and doesn't deliver fundamentals, such as airframe availabilty and instructional period scheduling, that's fair to remark on. Use phraseology that clearly states the issue and in fairness don't take it public before you air your issues directly to those involved. Yeah, it's easier to talk to friends, but they usually can't fix it.

 

If a company promises you a shortcut, remember that a deal that's too good to be true probably isn't.

 

Final broad observation, I've gotten some expensive and crappy instruction at name brand schools and some priceless knowledge free from absolute jerks. Own your training, as somebody else frequently points out here.

 

Edit: I worked at a school that did commercial work (decades ago) allowing instructors to build non-instructional time. It was a strong compensatory factor for potential hires and students.

Before anybody asks, that owner's long dead...

Edited November 26, 2013 by Wally

[Flint950]

How do you like working for Air Methods?

[aeroscout]

With no respect to my previous post, I’ll give you my opinion of a good school..

 

Me as the Director of Operations. Nearly Retired as the Chief Pilot. Avbug as the company Check Pilot. iChirs as the Chief Flight Instructor and Mikemv as the DPE……. 2 R22’s, 2 S300’s, 1 206 and 1 500. Graduates after teaching would be streamlined into legit commercial gigs at the 500-700 hour range…. And, only the best-of-the-best graduates will be hired as CFI’s……

 

Any questions?

Did you leave anyone out ?

[Wally]

How do you like working for Air Methods?

 

12.5 years at the same program.

[Jaybee]

 

 

In the end, it's about, asking the right questions and not about making statements…..

 

I wasn't trying to be harsh, maybe just suggesting Wolf should review his CFI training in reference to effective communications

 

but yea, what Spike said - was my point (maybe I need to review my effective communications also )

[Spike]

Did you leave anyone out ?

 

Oh yes. But that wouldn’t have had the melodramatic effect like I intended….

[Spike]

 

I wasn't trying to be harsh, maybe just suggesting Wolf should review his CFI training in reference to effective communications.

 

Just so ya know, that comment wasn’t directed at anyone specific. The fact is; we all make statements. IMO, these statements should be based on our experience. However, this is not always the case and, sometimes can be a bit embellished. With that said, how does the reader know who to trust? The reality is, they shouldn’t trust anyone and, contrary to popular belief, just because it’s written on the internet, it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s true. Especially with respect to the flight training sector……

 

In the end, it’s about asking the right questions but this should include the caveat, “reader beware”…

[CavGruntXIX]

Don't be too hard on the guy. What he wants is first hand experience with rotten schools. I don't think he's going to find it. Nobody wants to burn bridges in a career field as difficult to succeed in as this one!

 

There may be some bad instructors out there, or chief pilots who are really a bitch, but they eventually get replaced, and their behavior doesn't nessesarily mean the school's no good.

 

Even Upper Limit with their rotten sales pitch, it doesn't mean the training will suck! It just reaffirms the fact that flights schools are a business, and that business is to make pilots, nothing more! When this current VA cash cow dries up, schools will just find the next one to market to.

[CavGruntXIX]

What makes the Upper Limit Aviation video(s) so bad? What makes you believe that we'll be loosing our very hard earned VA benefits? As an 18 year veteran I take a bit of umbrage with that, however I do understand the precocious nature of the VA.

 

My wife and I visited ULA last week up in Cedar City, Utah, and we came away very impressed with the entire operation. They had 10 helicopters coming in after their morning flight, Mike Mower, the chief pilot took us around the entire school, the university I will be attending, and then drove us around town to aid in our finding a home in which to live while I attend school. He made no boastful promises about job placement after the training was complete, he made sure that I understood that the CFI's they hire are not just good pilots but also good people and good trainers, in other words not everyone gets hired on as a CFI. He answered every question I had as honestly and bluntly as possible it seemed, not everything was what I wanted to hear but it seemed like the truth.

 

I'm not sure that dislike of a marketing tool (like a promotional video) constitutes a reason to advise prospective students to steer clear of a school, seems like a weak case. Do you have personal experience or even second hand experience to back up your thoughts? Were there other reasons that you feel like ULA is a "bad" school to go to?

 

After as much research as I could do on forums such as this, speaking with a few pilots in the industry, and physically visiting the school, I have decided to attend Upper Limit Aviation and will be moving up there from San Diego in two weeks.

 

I appreciate the tough questions that are being asked here, as a husband and father of four, this choice has been a very serious one to make and the information I have gleaned over the past few months led to this decision. As my training progresses I will be sure to chime in from time to time on how the experience is going, that will be first hand information - at least information from my perspective.

[Azhigher]

If you want to hear about bad flight schools go around to entry level turbine jobs and ask the newer pilots what they thought about their former schools. Seems like as soon as pilots spoke with instructors from others schools and got a sense for how things were outside their own establishment their opinions changed a bit.

[CavGruntXIX]

Got a link Azhigher? We are pretty well locked into ULA now, but knowledge is always a good thing.

[Jaybee]

Not sure exactly who you are/were talking/asking CavGrunt...

 

You said you did your homework so to review the basics of what to look for in a good school -

1. Honest advertising
2. Schedule of fees
3. Safety record

I think most would agree this is a basic simple list that we could agree on. My motivation ? Beats me, I've never went to ULA, don't know anyone that went to ULA and I'm not in a competing business... so I guess, I'm just trying to help new guys/gals make good decisions (almost went to Silver State, until I saw no schedule of fees on their website, then came here and read experienced professionals opinions on the matter and luckily I did not go to Silver State).

 

So to review the basic list as it applies to ULA -

1. Flat out said what was said in the video, if you don't have a problem with that then best of luck to you. A lot of people with years of experience in this business will disagree with you.
2. No schedule of fees posted. Most any school I've ever looked at going to has a schedule of fees posted, except ULA.
3. ULA has had 11 accidents since 2005. This is second hand information to me from here http://originalforum.justhelicopters.com/DisplayThread.asp?BD=2119585&Page=1&ForumID=23&msgid=2120137&OM=2120137#2120137 so I cannot validate the accuracy.

Good luck.

[CavGruntXIX]

Not sure exactly who you are/were talking/asking CavGrunt...

 

You said you did your homework so to review the basics of what to look for in a good school -

• Honest advertising
• Schedule of fees
• Safety record

I think most would agree this is a basic simple list that we could agree on. My motivation ? Beats me, I've never went to ULA, don't know anyone that went to ULA and I'm not in a competing business... so I guess, I'm just trying to help new guys/gals make good decisions (almost went to Silver State, until I saw no schedule of fees on their website, then came here and read experienced professionals opinions on the matter and luckily I did not go to Silver State).

 

So to review the basic list as it applies to ULA -

• Flat out said what was said in the video, if you don't have a problem with that then best of luck to you. A lot of people with years of experience in this business will disagree with you.
• No schedule of fees posted. Most any school I've ever looked at going to has a schedule of fees posted, except ULA.
• ULA has had 11 accidents since 2005. This is second hand information to me from here http://originalforum.justhelicopters.com/DisplayThread.asp?BD=2119585&Page=1&ForumID=23&msgid=2120137&OM=2120137#2120137 so I cannot validate the accuracy.

Good luck.

I was addressing pilot#etc.etc. remarks.

 

I've seen a few of the ULA recruiting videos. Do you have a link to the one you are speaking of specifically?

[pilot#476398]

What makes the Upper Limit Aviation video(s) so bad? What makes you believe that we'll be loosing our very hard earned VA benefits?

 

They mention skipping the first tier turbine jobs and going directly into EMS/fire.

 

They seem to be marketing a lot of unnecessary training, i.e. long-line, NVG, turbine transition to vets and their free money. It seems to me that if too many vets buy into these overly expensive/unnecessary programs that the va will either run out of money premeturely or they will discover that they are being scammed by these schools and cut the funding,...but that's just my guess?

 

Those videos paint an unrealistic picture of entry level aviation!

[CavGruntXIX]

Pilot#476398

 

I just watched the video with Mike Mower talking. What he said initially was something to the effect that ULA graduates, (all of which if they are VA pilots will have CFII certification) should be able to skip the first tier tour business jobs, he never says first tier "turbine" jobs. He does mention later ULA graduates should be able to get a job flying EMS or fire, that may not be true judging from everything I have read. Beyond that I don't disagree with anything else he said. One thing to take into consideration is that ULA also has a contract to fly fire Ops with the Forest Service in Utah, so perhaps you can gain experience there in that field.(?)

 

As far as the "unnecessary" training, NVG, load lifting, etc., from what I've gained right here on this forum is that every bit of skill you can acquire, every certification you can earn, any experience you can attain while in school will help you land a job once training is over. I don't see training that helps a pilot gain experience as wasteful nor is the VA giving away free money. Your use of the word "scamming" seems inflammatory and based solely on your personal point of view rather than on a basis of the actual training being received at ULA. I haven't heard any Veteran graduates from that school complaining about having too much training. It is your personal opinion that the school is "wasting" VA money, your fear that the money will be cut off is always a possibility - that has always been my experience with the military. There are guidelines that every school has to follow regarding any type of training, if they need to reign it back they will. I am glad that training will be made available, even if I take a loan out for it.

 

Myself, I have earned that money over the course of nearly 19 years of Marine Corps and Army service including five deployments overseas. No "free money" being used here. I will take every bit of training that Upper Limits can give me, I do believe that it'll be tough going. Never in that video did anyone say it'd be easy.

 

Beyond the reference to EMS and fire I didn't find anything else objectionable. I do understand that it is a recruiting video, by nature it is trying to get vets to come and earn their certifications and hopefully launch a career at their school.

 

Every university on the planet virtually "guarantees" it's graduates a bright future after they have concluded their training, is ULA supposed to paint a dark and dismissal portrait of the industry to "keep it real" from your personal perspective?

 

I do NOT expect them to place me in a job after my training, I know that it will be on me to find that job based on my training and personal attributes.

 

In another thread (I think) someone else pointed out that there were 11 incidents/accidents since 2005. In my mind considering the shear number of hours that students are racking up over the course of nine years, that really doesn't sound bad to me.

 

The posting of costs was another concern someone had, that does seem fairly important but is not at all a deal breaker for me.

[SBuzzkill]

I don't really see any difference between this and getting a junk degree just to say you have one. Your VA benefits are yours and how effectively you use that money is up to you.

 

Edit: I'm not knocking ULA here just pointing out a double standard that I see often on this site and others.

Edited February 9, 2014 by SBuzzkill

[CavGruntXIX]

 

"I don't really see any difference between this and getting a junk degree just to say you have one. Your VA benefits are yours and how effectively you use that money is up to you"

 

Correct, this has been a long (on-line) road. We (my wife and I) visited the school up in Cedar City as the final decision maker. Perhaps I'll let you boys know what my personal experience is as we move forward.

[SBuzzkill]

Yes but all too often I see people get a degree then go out and get another one because their original degree isn't the one they needed. The original one may not be junk but it was definitely a poor use of funds. All I'm saying is that research and planning should go into any investment into education whether it's a helicopter school or a college. Once someone has a realistic expectation for the product they are receiving then that is the point the money should be spent.

 

It's not a helicopter school's fault if someone hasn't done that research (which it appears you have) and buys into a flashy ad.

[Spike]

Flight schools often sell fool’s gold and package it as a necessary benefit. From there, it’s up to the beneficiary to utilize the benefit responsibly so the guy with boots still on the ground can use that same benefit in the future…..

Edited February 9, 2014 by Spike

[CavGruntXIX]

That is a fact, my degree will be a fairly generic Bachelors in business.

 

Flight training aside, I know (from experience in the real world as a 44 year old man) that type of degree is generally useful in most industries. Plus I have other experience in the civilian job market. (Secretly though, I really do want to fly helicopters and put out forest fires)

[SBuzzkill]

Flight schools often sell fool’s gold and package it as a necessary benefit. From there, it’s up to the beneficiary to utilize the benefit responsibly so the guy with boots still on the ground can use that same benefit in the future…..

 

I fully agree.

[CavGruntXIX]

Sounds reasonable to me Spike. It's definitely up to me to use any training I receive, regardless of the school, to my personal and professional benefit.

 

Funny you mention "boots on the ground" I'm actually typing this post on my phone while in the passenger (TC) seat of a Cavalry Scout vehicle (up armored T.O.W. hummer) of the California Army National Guard. So I get it, that being said, if the VA says their program is good to go, well, that works for me. If it goes away, I'll be taking out loans like everyone else.

[WolftalonID]

CavGrunt, Seper Fi and congratulations for making a true leap of faith... Flight school is no joke...you are truely about to find that out and good luck with the studies..just do as you have already been trained to do... Dont give up!

 

Question to ask yourself...how many hours will you have when you finish flight school. I sit here with 226 hrs. CFI in hand, and of course wrong time of year but not finding work yet. I can teach, and will as soon as that spring rotation of hire begins... Man I hope!

 

Do you see yourself graduating with a few more maybe? Say 300 hrs? 400? Those extra flight training programs might build a few.......

 

ULA has a fire contract.....cool.... 1500 hrs required for FS card. Where does that extra 1100+ hrs come from at $250 - $500 hr flight time?

 

It comes from that FIRST TIER job Mike tosses out as being able to skip. CFI

 

Turbine tours......wake up call.....FIRST TIER JOB( maybe technically second tier......they do pay more right? Lol )! OMG. 1000+ hrs required by insurance and or company policy to fly them....

 

CFI in hand I sit here with 226 hrs.....man I wish my School had advertised skipping that first tier job.....I would have found work by now.

 

I am a pilot, make no bones about it, would do it all over again today! I was nieve in understanding exactly how difficult it would be after I had my ratings..... Its ok, I know now, and will keep at it till I get hired and yes eventually I will be fighting fires, saving lives, or helping some reporter act like the world is ending under us for live TV.

 

It just burns me a tad, as well as the real vets of this industry seeing that video....AND MIKE HAS NEVER SAID SORRY!!!!!!! Mean what he may...its not what he said, and he reallllllllly could help out alot by clarifying WHAT he means by first tier......

 

I mean if the clevland braves advertised playing for them allowed you to skip first base when you made a hit...damn the line up would rock!!!!! Thats what we are saying.

 

ULA is a first class school, and they do really have a wonderful program in place despite their weird approach to advertising. Some people just feel a man of his word means more than the bottom dollar.

Edited February 9, 2014 by WolftalonID