Needing some advice

[cburg]

"the quickest way for a prospect to get hired by me was to ask me my weight and were the W+B numbers for the aircraft are. Oh and the quickest way not to get hired is show up with out a pen to write with."

Excellent!

[Spike]

By the information you’ve provided, and the fact you came here and asked for advice, it would appear you have a confidence problem. To wit, yes piloting aircraft is a perishable skill. However, it’s not a perishable skill like other perishable skills such as shooting a gun, or golfing. Either way, employers know this and expect you to be “rusty” if you haven’t flow for a while, especially if it’s in a machine you’ve never operated before. This being said, you have 1500 hours. I suggest you grow a pair and go out and show them 1500 hours’ worth of experience. And, even though you were once terminated (more on that later) it shouldn’t diminish your confidence. For me, my attitude is; give me a machine (ANY machine), to do a job (ANY job), and on day-one I will do that job equal to, or better than, the lowest production pilot currently flying the line. This is my philosophy, and no, don’t confuse this with the Hazardous “Macho” Attitude. There is a difference….

 

With regards to the termination; don’t worry about it. As already stated, many pilots are fired in this business, for all kinds of reasons and some are really lame reasons at that. In your case, whatever the reason was, don’t let it affect your confidence. During an interview, calmly with no emotion, explain the circumstances and what you learned from the experience. Most likely, the perspective employer has experienced the same situation/dilemma or, may have even been a victim of a similar situation. From there, you must get the perspective employer to feel you’re a better employee/person by this experience and you’ve moved on….. However, it should be understood, I say this as long as the termination wasn’t based on willful negligence or toxic personal behavior (i.e. something deserving to be blackballed from the industry)…. If this is the case, then please ignore the above and seek a job in another industry……….

[WolftalonID]

I would like to be fired...so I too can be a beter person because of it.

 

Spike will you hire me just for that purpose? I would love the option to say yes truthfully if asked. Use the reason I was socially awkward on the forum or somehing like that!!!! I am only asking so I could feel the joy of being hired first!!!! Lol.

 

Oh man seriously though, that was a great post Spike and a very mature, solid, and professional attitude to portray in this industry!!!! Confidence!!! Like a Captain should have!!

Edited March 16, 2014 by WolftalonID

[pilot#476398]

Well, first a bit of history on me. I've been flying for years, I've taught for all of those and I've accumulated over 1500 hours and mountains of debt. I received many awards and kudos for my training and a 100% pass rate, but the left seat has deteriorated my flying skills. Now I'm traveling the country trying for 500 hour jobs and my flying simply isn't good enough to get a job. I'm a great interviewer, I have plenty of satisfied students and make friends easily, but I'm starting to break down and feel like I'm simply not good enough to get a job. I'm feeling pretty defeated and can't afford to rent an R44 and I'm worried I'm going to miss the hiring season because of this and remain unemployed for an entire year. I've never had an accident. Recently I drove 13 hours, slept in my car and put my life on hold for yet another job that I didn't get. I feel at a complete loss and not sure where my life and my career are going and don't know what to do.

 

1500 hours working at a flight school? That seems like a lot, so I have a couple of questions if you don't mind?

 

1. Did you start looking for a turbine job at 1000 hours and thus spent that last 500 being rejected by other employers before you were fired?

 

2. What did you do to get fired?

[he_monkey]

Thanks for the advice and help.

 

I worked at a flight school up until about 1200 hours. After that I flew for farmers and a bunch of independent helicopter owners providing training for new ratings, flight reviews, safety flights or helping them do cattle counts, survey flights etc. I tried for a few turbine jobs, got a bit of turbine time as I flew and wasn't chosen to become a part of their team. I fully believe that the length of time without flying and the numerous jobs that I didn't get have affected my confidence level quite a bit, but I try to stay positive.

 

I'm willing to do whatever it takes and willing to bleed for a company if necessary. Recently for a job that I didn't get, I drove 12 hours, slept in my car, interviewed the next day and drove home. I'm planning on doing so again for yet another interview next week which is even further away. I've changed my resume to reflect the independent instruction that I've received and I have some very positive references from pilots I've trained in their own R44's and R22s.

 

I'm 190lbs and my average weight when I actively flew and kept the weight down was about 180. As for the reason of my firing...it's embarrassing and I don't like to talk about it. It's a case of what I say happened vs what my previous employer says and I don't want to come across as bad mouthing a former flight school that I still endorse as being a good school. There were problems with some decision making, some unscrupulous acts by management (not the CP) and several instructors and a mechanic "looked to move on" because of it. I was instead fired before I could simply "move on" like the others did. However they looked for and found reasons to fire me since I was the one that tried to bring it to the CPs attention while everyone else simply jumped ship. The manager (not the CP) fired me when the CP told them to "take care of the problems". This was the same management that caused everyone to want to leave.

 

Like I said, I don't want to badmouth the company or name names. I'm trying to put it in the past and I've learned a lot from it, but it's a blemish on my record that probably isn't helping my career.

 

Like I said in earlier posts, I'm willing to even teach for a couple of years to flesh out my resume beyond that poor reference and allow employers to see that it was an isolated incident and not an accurate representation of who I am. As a result I try to not mention the job experience in interviews so I'm never in an interview "telling them my side of the story".

 

So if anyone has leads about flight schools hiring, I'll gladly accept that information as well. I'm not above putting in the time at a flight school to bandage my resume.

[pilot#476398]

Well there's nothing like a fresh start in a new country. There's an ad on JSfirm for an R22 CFI in China.

[cburg]

So if anyone has leads about flight schools hiring, I'll gladly accept that information as well. I'm not above putting in the time at a flight school to bandage my resume.

Any chance you can do freelance instruction? I know several new owners needing transition training (including me). I just bought a Hughes 269….and all my time in in R22s. At least you are flying while you’re looking.

 

That’s why I asked you earlier what you were training in, because I was going to offer, but you did not respond (I got a guy). I’m sure there are others, since I know three others who are friends of mine that are shopping for CFIs to transition them.

[Spike]

As for the reason of my firing...it's embarrassing and I don't like to talk about it. It's a case of what I say happened vs what my previous employer says and I don't want to come across as bad mouthing a former flight school that I still endorse as being a good school. There were problems with some decision making, some unscrupulous acts by management (not the CP) and several instructors and a mechanic "looked to move on" because of it. I was instead fired before I could simply "move on" like the others did. However they looked for and found reasons to fire me since I was the one that tried to bring it to the CPs attention while everyone else simply jumped ship. The manager (not the CP) fired me when the CP told them to "take care of the problems". This was the same management that caused everyone to want to leave.

 

 

 

This story is not unlike many others in this business. Specifically, bruising egos of insecure company managers will always lead to termination. Why? We helicopter pilots are a dime-a-dozen and challenging the status-quo is often viewed as an attempt to overthrow the empire and thus, NEXT! THIS IS the Achilles Heel of this industry. THIS IS why most helicopter companies don’t become highly effective organizations. Moreover, THIS IS why those who have the capacity to inspire and improve an organization avoid positions of responsibility. That is, it’s much, much better and, much, much easier just being a line-guy….

 

The thing is, with the establishment of SMS, this type of behavior is supposed to subside. That is, a highly effective SMS is cemented in a “Just Culture”. If the “Just Culture” fails to exist, then the “system” fails and SMS becomes nothing but a slogan. In fact, a “Just Culture” is a benchmark of the system simply because it provides the only hard-core proof that management is following the system. Otherwise, it’s a talk-the-talk scenario. If the system breaks down, we break down, and sadly some will die because of it…….

[he_monkey]

Well, I'm leaving today for another interview. It'll be a 19 hour drive, but I'm willing to do it for my career and my family. Been studying my interview questions and after a few hours of flight time from my previous interviews I feel pretty ready and excited. It's not the furthest I've ever gone, but it's up there. Please wish me luck and hopefully I'll be back with some good news in a few days.

[cburg]

Well, I'm leaving today for another interview. It'll be a 19 hour drive, but I'm willing to do it for my career and my family. Been studying my interview questions and after a few hours of flight time from my previous interviews I feel pretty ready and excited. It's not the furthest I've ever gone, but it's up there. Please wish me luck and hopefully I'll be back with some good news in a few days.

Good luck...and no onions or garlic...and don't drink carbonated drinks during the interview ;-)

 

“Cooperate and graduate”...no time for idealisim.

[avbug]

As for the reason of my firing...it's embarrassing and I don't like to talk about it.

 

 

That's always a red flag.

 

I once sat through a group interview. One of the applicants had been a former police officer, instructing in his spare time over the years, to get ahead. So he said. When asked by the interviewer to talk about his police experience, he looked down humbly and simply said "I don't like to talk about it." I saw the looks exchanged by several being interviewed, and the interviewer. Most telling was the look on the face of the interviewer.

 

At the end of the session, two of us were asked to remain. Everyone else was sent on their way. We had another interview, then a simulator check. While I was waiting for the simulator, I happened by a board with pictures of a local FBO's graduates. It showed the "police officer" who had been working diligently for years to get experience instructing...getting his private only a year ago. Turns out it was all falsified experience, and consistent with the use of "I don't like to talk about it," the phrase covered up something else. It was a red flag.

 

Well, I'm leaving today for another interview. It'll be a 19 hour drive, but I'm willing to do it for my career and my family.

 

 

 

Willing to do it? How about haven't got any choice if you want the job? Saying you're willing to do it makes it sound as though you're doing someone a favor. This is aviation. We go where the work is, as often as we need, or we don't work.

 

Like I said in earlier posts, I'm willing to even teach for a couple of years to flesh out my resume beyond that poor reference and allow employers to see that it was an isolated incident and not an accurate representation of who I am. As a result I try to not mention the job experience in interviews so I'm never in an interview "telling them my side of the story".

 

 

 

Willing? Sounds like you think it's lowering yourself to doing something you don't feel you need to do. We take what we can get. When we do we give it our all, else we need not be there.

 

Hiding your experience is a poor practice. Own up to your past, be open about it, and you'll engender trust. Conceal and cover up, suppress and tap dance around, and you'll set yourself up as that guy that "doesn't want to talk about it." That guy usually doesn't get hired.

[aeroscout]

Spike mentioned SMS.

It does have some valuable aspects, and tools that are very beneficial and helpful to pilots.

But I have been around a long time in aviation.

I have seen TQM, TQL, MBO, 6Sigma and many other hot trends promising to be the savior of aviation come and more often go.

I don't know if SMS will be the one that sticks and stays or fades like the others into the ignominious sunset.

I'm not holding my breath.

[he_monkey]

AVbug, thank you for your honest response. I realize my wording may come across as a red flag in previous posts. I'm not trying to hide a major incident or accident or anything severe with my reluctance to speak about it.

 

The absolute truth is that I was fired from my first and pretty much only job that I've had in the industry. That was almost 2 years ago. Since then, I've tried for many jobs that I didn't get. I've been haunted by those mistakes ever since. I've struggled with those mistakes, I've lost a lot of sleep wondering if my career was over and I would love for a fresh start and to distance myself from them. You can't imagine even now how bad I feel writing that scentence and how badly I want to put it behind me. If it doesn't come up in an interview I don't want to offer the information freely when there is so much competition for any low hour position as a pilot. I hope that doesn't make me a bad person.

I want nothing more than to have a long, safe and honest career, and I know that I've learned from my mistakes, but I'd rather not advertise them.

 

As for my use of the word "willing". Perhaps it was simply a poor choice of words. What I tried to convey was my dedication to do whatever it took and go wherever necessary which is a quality that a good pilot already possesses, and was probably unnecessary to write.

 

The truth of the matter is this: I know there are plenty of pilots who have been fired and recovered, and I know that what I did to get fired was stupid and probably not so severe that a potential employer would turn me down for a job because of it, but after a long period of unemployment, guilt and stress I began to lose hope that I would ever crawl out from under it. I have to work my way back up, and that starts with a new job giving me a chance. I know when that position comes along, I'll be the best damned employee they have ever seen because I need to prove that to myself, I owe it to the person who took a chance on me and anyone who I may have hurt in the past and Ill never make a similar mistake again.

 

I'm not trying to hide it, I've learned from it, but it doesn't mean I want to advertise it.

 

I hope the sincerity of my post comes through regarding my absolute dedication, willingness to work hard and my deep regret about previous mistakes. I happily own up to my past, but nothing would make me happier than to put them far behind me and prove that I've become a better and more knowledgable person since then.

[pilot#476398]

Schools seem to like to hire people they've trained. You've got 1500 hours. If you don't already have it, have you considered getting your ATP as a way to show a school that you are someone they would benefit from hiring?

[avbug]

The absolute truth is that I was fired from my first and pretty much only job that I've had in the industry.

 

 

I really don't see that as much of an impediment to your career. It may feel that way to you, but you may be reading more into it than a prospective employer might.

 

You need to remember that history exists largely in the mind and in the retelling. That is to say, when asked about your former work, you may have separated to address a family emergency, or you may have been terminated for cause. Don't lie about your past, and don't embelish it, but do cast it in the light most favorable to you. The employer can learn whatever about you he or she might desire; it's easy to find.

 

A person may be terminated for a number of reasons; many of them do not reflect badly on the employee. I have worked a few jobs where one was nobody until having been fired several times. It doesn't matter if it was your first employer or your last. There are good employers out there and bad; many exist in right to work states where you or the employer may sever the relationship at any time, no harm, no foul, no resource.

 

Some employers will look at your employment history and search for extended periods of employment. Others will look for diversity. Some will look at the reasons you left as the deciding factor, and others will scan your history for relevant operations or equipment: they're after something specific. If you've left one job and hired into another, or left and begun other training, then your explanation may be as simple as "separated to accept employment with XXX," or "separated to seek additional training." There may be additional reasons; you do not necessarily need to elaborate on them unless the matter is pursued further.

 

I'm not talking about terminations for cause; if you crashed the only training helicopter and crushed the owners porsche while flying naked with your girlfriend, under the influence of six of the most popular illegal narcitics after spray painting racial epithets on the airport managers office in hot pink, then you may have a bigger problem than if you voted Democrat and your boss was a Republican. You see the difference.

 

It's time to stop losing sleep over what may have been and let it go. We all take time away for various reasons, from a family emergency to pursuit of education or training. You're entitled. It's always easier to get a job if you have a job, but that doesn't preclude you from re-entering the work force, or the aviation work force.

 

As for pursuing your ATP, it might be useful, or not, but at this stage it's probably more cost than benefit.

[terminal_velo]

You're semi-anonymous here, what'd you do?

[cburg]

I would like to be fired...so I too can be a beter person because of it.

 

Spike will you hire me just for that purpose? I would love the option to say yes truthfully if asked. Use the reason I was socially awkward on the forum or somehing like that!!!! I am only asking so I could feel the joy of being hired first!!!! Lol.

 

Oh man seriously though, that was a great post Spike and a very mature, solid, and professional attitude to portray in this industry!!!! Confidence!!! Like a Captain should have!!

My old CEO would say “I gave him an opportunity to excel elsewhere” and he was “deselected”.

[WolftalonID]

Wow Avbug..... I never took you for such a flambouyant renegade!!! I bet that FBO manager has never forgotten you!!!!

[avbug]

Wow Avbug..... I never took you for such a flambouyant renegade!!! I bet that FBO manager has never forgotten you!!!!

 

Sorry...which FBO manager? Flamboyant? I may actually be the least interesting person alive. I usually work relatively hard to keep it that way.

[Nearly Retired]

Avbug:

I may actually be the least interesting person alive.

 

 

FINALLY! Something Avbuggy and I can agree on!

 

 

I usually work relatively hard to keep it that way.

 

 

Somehow I doubt that. I don't think you have to work very hard to be uninteresting. Rather, I think it comes very naturally to you.

 

 

But seriously, this is one thread in which I do agree with everything Avbug says. The price of admission in this industry is high.

 

We don't care how dedicated you *say* you'll be to an employer. WE DON'T CARE. You *better* be the most dedicated employee he's ever hired. THAT is what's expected.

 

We don't care how "good a pilot" you say you are. WE DON'T CARE. Being a "good pilot" is barely good enough. You better be a stellar stick because THAT is what we expect.

 

We don't care how far you had to drive for an interview. Neither do we care that you're so poor that you have to sleep in your car. Hey, you want the job or not? Do what you have to do.

 

We also don't care what you have to do to build time. Go "back" to instructing? Meh. Who cares. Do it. I'd love to be a CFI at this stage of the game. I'd love to "officially" transfer some of my knowledge and experience to younger pilots (although Avbug might disagree with the merit of such an idea). Don't act like being a CFI again would be so degrading and/or distasteful.

 

Nobody ever promised anyone that they'd have a successful career as a helicopter pilot. I, for one, have been broadcasting loud and clear for many years about what a sucky industry this is, and how hard it is to "make it." But nobody listens. Everyone wants to believe that all they have to do is follow some magical formula and...voila!...instant high-paying, rewarding career. Bullsh*t.

 

There are no guarantees. None. Zero. There is "luck," and there is "being in the right place at the right time." Hopefully you can make one or both of those things work for you. Getting fired from a job doesn't help, but it's not a career-ender. So don't come on forums like this and whine about how hard it is to get a job. It. Just. Is. For everyone.

 

Some of us could've told you that.

[WolftalonID]

Sorry...which FBO manager? Flamboyant? I may actually be the least interesting person alive. I usually work relatively hard to keep it that way.

I was refering to the flying naked with your girlfriend story!!! Lol.

[pilot#476398]

Avbug:

 

 

FINALLY! Something Avbuggy and I can agree on!

 

 

 

 

Somehow I doubt that. I don't think you have to work very hard to be uninteresting. Rather, I think it comes very naturally to you.

 

 

But seriously, this is one thread in which I do agree with everything Avbug says. The price of admission in this industry is high.

 

We don't care how dedicated you *say* you'll be to an employer. WE DON'T CARE. You *better* be the most dedicated employee he's ever hired. THAT is what's expected.

 

We don't care how "good a pilot" you say you are. WE DON'T CARE. Being a "good pilot" is barely good enough. You better be a stellar stick because THAT is what we expect.

 

We don't care how far you had to drive for an interview. Neither do we care that you're so poor that you have to sleep in your car. Hey, you want the job or not? Do what you have to do.

 

We also don't care what you have to do to build time. Go "back" to instructing? Meh. Who cares. Do it. I'd love to be a CFI at this stage of the game. I'd love to "officially" transfer some of my knowledge and experience to younger pilots (although Avbug might disagree with the merit of such an idea). Don't act like being a CFI again would be so degrading and/or distasteful.

 

Nobody ever promised anyone that they'd have a successful career as a helicopter pilot. I, for one, have been broadcasting loud and clear for many years about what a sucky industry this is, and how hard it is to "make it." But nobody listens. Everyone wants to believe that all they have to do is follow some magical formula and...voila!...instant high-paying, rewarding career. Bullsh*t.

 

There are no guarantees. None. Zero. There is "luck," and there is "being in the right place at the right time." Hopefully you can make one or both of those things work for you. Getting fired from a job doesn't help, but it's not a career-ender. So don't come on forums like this and whine about how hard it is to get a job. It. Just. Is. For everyone.

 

Some of us could've told you that.

 

This is partly why I always say to people get a degree/real job first, and then try to work your way in later in life. Why I myself decided long ago to just look at this as a retirement job, not my life's career choice. And one of the main reasons I'd rather just buy a helicycle and fly for fun!

 

Its an overcrowded industry, which allows it to be filled with employers who can pick and chose at will.

 

A chief pilot told me once that his boss is hiring too many pilots for the season, and he knows that once that becomes apparent, he will not hesitate to start firing people. It doesn't matter how far you travelled to take the job, how much money you spent, how f*cked up your life will become,...HE JUST DOESN'T CARE!

 

,...and why should he (or anyone else for that matter),...we're a dime a dozen!

 

Do something else for a living. Buy a helicycle and fly for fun! My standard advice!

[Wally]

The industry not overcrowded with pilots. Current experience is rare and becoming more so (at least in EMS).

The industry has always had vastly more entrants than entry level seats. When the source was the military, they just went and did other things instead of flying It wasn't so desperate because we, er- they weren't pulling tens of thousands of dollars in a debt tail. (Don't mistake that for 'free training', it cost between 3 years and the rest of your life...)

[pilot#476398]

I've always found it amusing when people at the top whine about the lack of experienced pilots while the people at the bottom whine that they can't find a job with which to get that experience.

 

Its like a restaurant manager telling the owner he's going out of business because there aren't enough customers without checking to see that the front door is actually blocked!

 

"Really, your company lost its EMS contract because you couldn't find enough experienced pilots? That's funny because I just started McDonalds manegement training program because I couldn't find a job as a pilot,...anywhere!"

[helipilotm]

I've always found it amusing when people at the top whine about the lack of experienced pilots while the people at the bottom whine that they can't find a job with which to get that experience.

 

Its like a restaurant manager telling the owner he's going out of business because there aren't enough customers without checking to see that the front door is actually blocked!

 

"Really, your company lost its EMS contract because you couldn't find enough experienced pilots? That's funny because I just started McDonalds manegement training program because I couldn't find a job as a pilot,...anywhere!"

First off I'm pretty sure Wally wasn't whining about lack of qualified pilots just stating a fact.

 

Second off its nothing like your story of a resturant. The customers are there there isn't enough waiters/waitresses with good customer service. There are plenty of low time jobs out there. Heck Maverick, Papillion and Sundance all have job posts out. I can't recall ever seing all 3 major players in the ditch advertising at the same time in the last 4-5 years. Also ERA has had postings on and off since last fall. The ERA posts say offshore time required. I have had 4 people use me as a reference since November. I have gotten 4 calls from ERA and those 4 pilots are now employed with ERA with 0 offshore time. Also PHI has been hiring nonstop for along time.

 

In my opinion the helicopter industry is booming right now in all sectors. EMS is expanding at an alarming rate. Oil and gas is also expanding due to new technology and getting more product out of the wells, plus going further and further offshore. Utility side is up and down but strong right now. The company I work for has enough seismic work for the next few years to justify buying a few more machines. This is a tough career but if you can be one of the lucky ones and catch that break, it's only getting better.