Run on landing in R22

[tradford]

Guys, help me out here. Since I failed the run on landing portion of my check ride, my retest is limited to one closed pattern and a run on landing. I've done a number of them since the check ride, and I'm first to admit that I still struggle a bit. I've watched a number of run on landing videos and air speed at touchdown is all over the map. Even in an R22, I'm seeing everything from just above ETL to 60 kts.

 

Most of my practice landings have been done on a the taxiway that the helicopters use, but I've decided to request the runway (we're class D) for my landing while the DPE is on board. I've got way too much riding on this to screw it up again.

[Pohi]

What are you specifically asking?

 

Did the DPE tell you what part of the maneuver you needed work on?

[adam32]

Just above etl, are they limiting your power? Skids level and slowly lower collective while pointing the nose straight and biggest thing, RELAX!!!

Edited May 19, 2014 by adam32

[tradford]

Thanks. There's such a huge difference between laying the skids down at 60 kts and just above ETL. I didn't think my check ride landing was bad, but I came to a stop over towards the edge of the runway as opposed to being close to the center line and my DPE pink slipped me. I know I did a bad job of setting up my approach and I suffered for it. I have a tendency to pull a little on cyclic before touching the surface, but I think that's at least partly due to how fast I'm screaming down the taxiway.

 

I've looked all through the POC and can't find a recommended speed specifically for run on landings. There is a 60 kts speed stated for "approaches", but I wasn't sure that also meant the touchdown speed for run-ons. I know I'm making this harder than it needs to be - but that's me.

[zippiesdrainage]

The purpose of the run on landing is in the event that you're too heavy or the DA is too high to maintain a hover. To protect the skid shoes you want to make it as slow as possible with the minimum run distance. If the DPE gives you a max manifold pressure you get the Heli as low as you can above the ground, and get you speed to barely above ETL. Pull the power up to the limit set by the DPE and then slow up until you drop out of ETL and let the sink out drop you to the ground. Just before touchdown bump the cyclic forward, otherwise you'll touchdown with the back of the skids first and bounce. Keep the cyclic centered and lower collective to stop the ship and pedals to keep your nose straight ahead.

Hope it helps and good luck!

Edited May 19, 2014 by zippiesdrainage

[Carpenter]

I can't envision ANY reason to try a run on landing at 60kts. You want to be above ETL until in ground effect before running on. A slight breeze helps maintain ETL longer, so I would plan the check ride accordingly. Relax,enjoy yourself and it will happen naturally. Good Luck.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Carpenter

[Astro]

You want to lose etl just as you get over your touchdown spot. How did your CFI teach you to do it?

[280fxColorado]

60kts is outrageous for a run on landing!! Try 15-25 KIAS. Is there a max touchdown speed listed for the R22? I forget... but 60kts sounds insane. Certainly the helo owner wont be happy at having to replace the skids shoes so often!

 

One technique for practice:

 

Set up a long, shallow approach at normal airspeed.

 

Think of it like transitioning from a normal approach, to an air taxi (40ft/40kts), to a low fast hover (5ft, 15-25kts). Ideally a smooth, constant angle, with gradual deceleration.

 

Once you are straight and level at the low/fast hover, you can apply ever-so-gentle aft cyclic.

 

As the helicopter slows below ETL, it will gradually lose the last bit of altitude. If you coordinate it properly, little or no collective cushion is required. I like to add a hair of forward cyclic just before touchdown - that helps to lose the last bit of altitude and level the skids with the surface.

 

Once you're on the surface, remember left cyclic to counteract translating tendency and NO aft cyclic (a bad habit that will chop off your tail in a touchdown auto!). Pedals for heading, lateral cyclic for ground track. Smoothly/Slowly lower collective to put friction on the skids and stop your slide.

 

Like others have said, the lowest speed that is practical for the set down is ideal. With good technique, timing, and practice, you can get this down to Zero airspeed for the touchdown (0/0 or no hover landing). To practice, when terminating the approach set your power just below power-required-to-hover (if it took 22" MP when you departed, set it at 20-21" now) and gradually bleed off the airspeed all the way till touchdown. If you time it perfectly, you can smoothly terminate with Zero airspeed and Zero rate of descent without adding any collective (but be ready to cushion with collective if needed!). A 0/0 landing is a good one to have in your bag of tricks if you ever have to land with insufficient power in rough terrain.

Edited May 19, 2014 by 280fxColorado

[aeroscout]

The run on landing should be tailored to the abnormal condition requiring it. If it's for hydraulic failure, an airspeed just above control ability. If it's for a stuck pedal, a speed high enough to align the skids with the direction of motion.

You have to factor the headwind component into the equation.

In no wind if you are targeting 10 knots indicated, and you have 15 knots headwind, you will be going backwards.

You also have to factor in the accuracy of the airspeed indicator. A lot of helicopter ASIs are inaccurate below 40 knots, but a GPS will give an accurate groundspeed which could be a good reference.

Hope that helps.

[arotrhd]

1 closed pattern only? A bit rigid, me thinks. Remembering my private checkride, my DPE reminded me that I was PIC. I executed a missed approach on my 1st run on landing due to a nice side buffet from a 757 that had spooled up to make a 90 turn onto a ramp position...not an uncontrollable situation by any means, but it just kicked my centerline off enough that could have been very marginal right before ETL and I would have been forcing it to happen at the target point. I had identified. Declared intentions and went around and executed maneuver as originally intended. Flight portion ended with a congratulations, you have a certificate to learn kinda thing, but we have the post brief and final paperwork. Post brief was interesting and he had me justify the go around, my response being exactly as DPE wanted to hear. He proposed the "well, what if this was an emergent situation that required you to land?" Not trying to be a wisea$$, I told him that I would have said "your controls", and if I was solo, I wouldn't have cared about keeping the center as long as I didn't go off the edge for that particular situation.

 

Keep relaxed, confident and let the speed bleed off to what other have stated already.

 

-WATCH FOR THE PATTERNS, WATCH FOR THE WIRES-

[tradford]

Thanks guys. My CFI was taught to contact the ground at 45 kts - but he's comfortable with any speed between that and 60 (other than it being a bit rough on the skids/plates). All I recollect from my DPE was being told to do a run on landing followed by a "what was that?" after we came to a stop. He said that he didn't understand how I could perform such a poor landing after doing so well on everything else - as though he hated failing me. I opted to continue with the test and did fine on the rest of it. I'll only have a matter of days after my scheduled re-test before the 60 days times out and I have to start the process all over again. The pressure is certainly on!

[rotornut67]

Someone said it above...RELAX man!!! You are stressing way too much. I always teach running landings by limiting the MAP to 2 inches less than it takes to hover and just keep ETL until touchdown. Keep it straight with the pedals, and get the collective DOWN to save my skid shoes...don't overthink a simple maneuver. Good luck, and let us know how it goes.

[280fxColorado]

Yeah bud I don't know about that. You might want to have a chat with your instructor because 45-60kts is excessive for touchdown speed. I don't think you'll find that recommended anywhere. Do you have a copy of the FAA's Helicopter Flying Handbook? R22 Flight Manual or Robinson Maneuvers guide? What is ETL? At what airspeed do you gain/lose it?

 

http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/helicopter_flying_handbook/

 

Helicopter Flying Handbook, Chapter 10 - Advanced Flight Manuevers:

 

"Shallow Approach and Running/Roll-On Landing

Use a shallow approach and running landing when a

high density altitude, a high gross weight condition, or

some combination thereof, is such that a normal or steep

approach cannot be made because of insufficient power

to hover. To compensate for this lack of

power, a shallow approach and running landing makes use

of translational lift until surface contact is made.

...

As in normal and steep approaches, the primary control

for the angle and rate of descent is the collective, while the

cyclic primarily controls the groundspeed. However, there

must be a coordination of all the controls for the maneuver

to be accomplished successfully. The helicopter should

arrive at the point of touchdown at or slightly above effective

translational lift. Since translational lift diminishes rapidly

at slow airspeeds, the deceleration must be coordinated

smoothly, at the same time keeping enough lift to prevent

the helicopter from settling abruptly."

...

Common Errors ...

5. Failure to maintain a speed that takes advantage of

effective translational lift.

6. Touching down at an excessive groundspeed for the

existing conditions. (Some helicopters have maximum

touchdown groundspeeds.)"

Chapter 02: Aerodynamics of Flight

"Effective Translational Lift (ETL)

While transitioning to forward flight at about 16 to 24 knots,

the helicopter goes through effective translational lift (ETL).

As mentioned earlier in the discussion on translational lift,

the rotor blades become more efficient as forward airspeed

increases. Between 16 and 24 knots, the rotor system

completely outruns the recirculation of old vortices and

begins to work in relatively undisturbed air. The flow of

air through the rotor system is more horizontal; therefore,

induced flow and induced drag are reduced."

Edited May 19, 2014 by 280fxColorado

[rotornut67]

I agree with 280fx, have a chat with your instructor. I have never done a running landing at more than 30kts in the 22 or anything else. There is no need for that kind of excessive speed, 20-30 KIAS is what I have the student shoot for at touchdown, and haven't had one fail yet (on that maneuver anyway)

[tradford]

Thanks Guys - hugely beneficial. I'm going to slow down to the 30-35 kts airspeed at the contact point. That alone will go a long way towards managing the 'excitement' factor while performing the maneuver. Thanks 280fx. I do have the handbook and though I've read that part, I still came away a little bit confused. I couldn't find anything real specific in the R22 POC, probably because of the number of external variables that affect proper speed for the conditions present.

 

The one major factor I'm taking away from this thread is that 60 kts is way fast - and for that, I'm eternally grateful. I've got some time scheduled on Saturday to polish my technique a bit. I'll slow her down and spend more time focusing on keeping her level at contact.

[Pohi]

I think aeroscout is right on the money. You have to keep in mind WHY you are doing a run on landing.

 

There should be some sort of scenario as to why you need to do one other than just doing one for giggles.

 

One instructor told me, for example, if you are power limited that you should try to do what you can to still come into a hover. If your Dpe limits you to 20" and you can come in and ease your way down and slowly come to a stop and hover at 20" then you win.

 

Instead of saying, "I think I'm power limited when I get to my clearing on the mountain, I guess I'll have to hit the ground at 60 kts for this run on landing". That's, imho, a very unsafe way to look at it.

 

If you decide you have to do a run on landing, do your shallow approach (to minimize the descent rate and therefore power required to arrest that descent rate at the bottom) slowly bring power up to the max. Ease the helicopter down and keep slowing down as much as possible. If you can come to a stop without sliding, great. If not, make sure you make contact with the skids level and the rest has been explained enough.

 

You are not going to always have a hard smooth surface to land on, so minimizing that ground run is very important. If you can get the slide down to around than 10 feet (without bottoming the collective) then it's a shining success.

[HeliUtah]

2 cents, no more, maybe less ... you say your instructor teaches 45 knots because that is what they were taught. Your CFI should be able to answer the question "Why are we landing at xx speed?" and "because that is the way I was taught" is not good enough. 280fx provided a quote from the PTS above indicating exactly what speed the DPE is looking for (the PTS is the Practical Test Standard that provides the guidance to the DPE for determining pass/fail in case your CFI hasn't gone over it). Slowing down to 30-35 is still too fast in my opinion according to the PTS. Just above ETL means 20-25 for the R22... you should just be at the point of beginning to feel the shudder optimally. You will have less ground run, and less opportunity for drift after set down, less wear on the machine, etc.

[HighCountry]

You should re-read everything written above. 30-35 knots GROUND SPEED is still too fast. Unless your DPE tells you the running landing is due to a stuck right pedal that is not what he's looking for. He is looking for your ability to handle a performance limited maneuver, not an emergency. When you do a running takeoff do you keep it on the ground until 45 knots? You use the ground run to accelerate to ETL where the increased performance allows you to lift off and continue acceleration without the drag of ground friction. The Running landing is simply this in reverse. If you arrive at your intended touchdown point at ETL and allow the ship to bleed off another couple knots to below ETL it will land itself. Cyclic forward, slowly lower collective for braking, using cyclic to maintain cent line and pedals to stay aligned with direction of travel.

 

Yea, and RELAX.

 

If your DPE is committed to a safety culture he should take your instructor aside for some free counseling as well.

[cburg]

The landing is easy, but be sure you set it up so you hit the mark +/-. Usually you'll have a MP limit as mentioned, and if you get low and slow and...short...it's hard to get it back and stay within your MP limit.

[iChris]

I've looked all through the POC and can't find a recommended speed specifically for run on landings. There is a 60 kts speed stated for "approaches", but I wasn't sure that also meant the touchdown speed for run-ons. I know I'm making this harder than it needs to be - but that's me.

 

You need to go back to your instructor and drill that person on why they let you down. It’s you or them that didn’t get the word. You’re looking all over for information that’s in your PTS; the book that's directly related to the test you’re trying to pass.

 

Your knowledge of the task relates directly to your proficiency. More than likely, your approach was bad with reference the task at hand, so your landing ended poorly.

 

In training there’s no need to touchdown any faster than around 25kts. You should be able to estimate your speed at touchdown between 15 – 25 knots by looking outside, not inside looking at the airspeed indicator.

 

They should be training and you should be able to fly any VFR approach eyes looking outside maintaining both approach angle and rate of closure. The best thing is for you to look outside and don’t worry about what’s on that airspeed indicator. Below 40kts your airspeed indicator’s accuracy deteriorates, which ends in the pilot chasing airspeed.

 

It's really nothing inside the cockpit that you need to be looking at that can help you with this running landed. The best thing your instructor can do is cover-up that old airspeed indicator.

 

 

PTS - Task F: Shallow Approach and Running/Roll-On Landing

 

1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to shallow

approach and running/roll-on landing, including the purpose

of the maneuver

 

7. Maintains a speed that will take advantage of effective

translational lift during surface contact with landing gear

parallel with the ground track.

Edited May 20, 2014 by iChris

[tradford]

Thanks for all the feedback. The Robinson R22 Maneuvers Guide is pretty specific. It does refer to 60 kts as being the recommended approach speed (that's true for all approaches), but it also refers to threshold of ETL as being the appropriate touchdown speed. In retrospect, I deserved to flunk that part of the check ride. I think I have what I need now to make it right on the retest. It should be way easier at less than warp speed.

[Spike]

This maneuver is for a VFR pilot. The “V” in this alphabetic soup means “visual”……..

Three words…. Brisk walking pace…..

Fly by outside reference and confirm with the instruments. Not the other-way-around. If, and it’s a big IF, as a private pilot applicant, you don’t know what a “brisk walking pace” is, ask for a $1,000 refund from your school……..

Edited May 20, 2014 by Spike

[Hand_Grenade_Pilot]

Unfortunately, your instructor failed you by simply throwing out a number (and a fast one at that) while failing to explain the 'why'.

 

Lets look at two scenarios that would dictate performing a run-on landing.

 

1.) Partial loss of engine power.

 

In a piston helicopter such as the R22, you can experience a decrease in power output from the engine in a number of ways. For example, a stuck exhaust valve (resulting in loss of compression in a cylinder).

 

Lets assume you're flying around at altitude, at max cruise speed when this partial loss of power occurs. You, the pilot, would notice a sudden rise in manifold pressure and a decrease in rotor rpm (the pitch setting of the main rotor blades is now too high for the amount of engine power available). To restore rotor RPM, you must reduce some collective pitch. To preserve altitude (prevent a descent) you must apply a bit of aft cyclic and decelerate to a lower airspeed (thus giving you a greater vertical lift component). After re-establishing control of the aircraft, determining where you must go to execute an emergency run-on landing, and making all appropriate radio calls you then must determine exactly how to set up the run-on landing.

 

Specifically, what airspeed should be maintained until contact is made with the ground?

 

That depends on how much engine power has been lost. Under extreme circumstances, you might have to maintain the aircraft's best rate of climb speed. If it is a relatively small loss of power (or you have a low enough density altitude and weight), you could just stay a bit above ETL.

 

To keep it simple, you need to maintain whatever speed is necessary (between ETL and best rate of climb) to maintain a very, very low rate of descent during the shallow approach. Flying faster than the best rate of climb speed requires MORE engine power and is very counter productive (you are giving yourself less available power while making the run-on landing more risky).

 

Essentially, you are experimenting with the aircraft's "power curve". Very low and very high airspeeds require a lot of engine power. That sweet spot at the bottom of the curve (best rate of climb) requires the least amount of engine power. For the specific circumstances, you need to find out how close you need to be to that "sweet spot" to prevent your rate of descent from becoming too high on approach, without going to the "fast" side of the curve.

 

Moving on to another scenario...

 

2.) Stuck pedal

 

This is referring to a fixed pitch setting of the tail rotor. The "stuck" pedal position is determined by what phase of flight you were in when the pedals became stuck. Specifics aside, if the pedals become stuck in forward flight it will come in one of three flavors; stuck left, neutral or stuck right. This DOES NOT mean full left, neutral and full right. In forward flight, there is no reason for the pedals to move very far from neutral (unless you are deliberately flying in a very hard slip/skid). What is the significance in identifying this? If the pedals become stuck, you still have anti-torque (even with stuck right pedal). You still have the ability to fly the aircraft, and perform a run-on. But, like the first scenario, there is no one specific speed for all pedal settings.

 

On a very basic level, stuck left requires the least amount of forward speed during the shallow approach, stuck right requires a slightly faster speed. You must experiment with airspeeds between ETL and best rate of climb to find that "sweet spot" where the nose is aligned with your ground track.

 

Unlike the previous situation, you are not experimenting with airspeed to maintain a suitable rate of descent (you have plenty of engine power available to keep you from dropping). The objective here is to find the right balance of torque and weathervane effect to keep your nose straight so you don't encounter dynamic rollover during touch down. Touching down with a very high forward speed is particularly dangerous in this situation because you dramatically increase your chance of dynamic rollover. Once on the ground, you are left with difficult task of maintain yaw control with collective and throttle adjustments. On a very basic level, increase torque to yaw right, decrease torque to yaw left. The lower your forward speed, the further the nose can deviate from your ground track before you flip. Please bear in mind that it is actually much more difficult than it sounds (maintaining yaw control only using torque). If you can find an experienced instructor to perform the exercise with you though, it is a worthwhile experience.

 

Also bear in mind that these are not the only situations that could require a run-on landing. Other situations include landing at a DA greater than IGE hover performance, loss of performance due to icing, control failure and hydraulics failure.

 

TLDR: Your airspeed should be between ETL and best rate of climb while performing a run-on landing. For most situations, staying a little bit above ETL will suffice. Really fast run-on landings are bad because the aircraft is harder to control after touch down, you require much more distance to stop and there is a greater risk of dynamic roll over.

[Spike]

Concentrate on performing the maneuver. Emphasis on “performing” for the retake……

The reasons why I do a running landing in an AS350 are useless to you with regards to your retake…..

Perform the maneuver as prescribed by the PTS…..

[tradford]

Thanks guys - great instruction and advice as always. This thread has become an excellent run-on landing primer.