91.409

[fleman202]

I am sure this has been covered somewhere but I will still through it out.

 

Let's say that a flight took off on a compensating flight and during the flight the aircraft crossed over the 100hr mark thus needing an inspection.

 

The way I read 91.409 that helicopter does require a hundred hour inspection, my question is what happens to the time that it flew past 100 hours on that flight? Can they be compensated for the whole flight or just the time before the inspection was due?

 

Hope my question is clear!

[Flying Pig]

Let's say you flew 2 hrs over...so you landed 102hrs. The next inspection needs to be done at 98 hrs. As far as paying for the time, a bill is a bill...ain't no free rides . Just keep in mind that the 10% over allowance is for the purposes of transporting the aircraft to a Mx facility......not so the company can squeeze in one more photo flight.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Flying Pig

[fleman202]

That's how I read it to. I was just curious what peoples interpretations are when the time limit is crossed over in flight.

 

Maybe an FAA inspector waiting on the ground for a ramp check?

[avbug]

I am sure this has been covered somewhere but I will still through it out.

 

Let's say that a flight took off on a compensating flight and during the flight the aircraft crossed over the 100hr mark thus needing an inspection.

 

The way I read 91.409 that helicopter does require a hundred hour inspection, my question is what happens to the time that it flew past 100 hours on that flight? Can they be compensated for the whole flight or just the time before the inspection was due?

 

Hope my question is clear!

 

There is nothing in 91.409( b )which exempts a helicopter from a 100 hour inspection if it's a passenger carrying aircraft for hire, other than the provision for alternate compliance for turbine helicopters. Turbine helicopters must be inspected under an approved inspection program and meet all the component life limitations and replacement intervals specified by the manufacturer. In all cases, an alternate progressive inspection program may be used, but this must be an approved program.

 

If one is operating under a 100 hour inspection program, then one may not exceed the inspection intervals during revenue operations. One may fly over that the interval by up to 10 hours, but only for the purpose of repositioning the airplane to an inspection facility, and as noted above, the time over the interval is deducted from the next interval. If one goes over by ten hours, then the next interval is only 90 hours.

 

If you know an inspection interval is close enough to be compromised by an intended flight, then don't make the flight. You don't have enough time remaining available for use. Perform the inspection now.

 

The time prior to the inspection, incidentally, can't be added to the next interval. In other words, if you perform the inspection five hours early, you don't get 105 hours on the next interval...just 100.

Edited September 17, 2014 by avbug

[eagle5]

That's how I read it to. I was just curious what peoples interpretations are when the time limit is crossed over in flight.

 

 

I need to pay more attention to my preflight planning?

[Jaybee]

You might not get any flak if you exceeded by a few tenths due to unexpected wind or weather diversion, that would be pretty easy to explain and may get you a pass. I think there may even be a Chief Counsel opinion letter supporting that but it has been a while and I can't research it right now.

 

Now according to the DME that administered my A&P test - a little known factoid is that to fly past that 100 hour inspection in order to transport the aircraft to a maintenance facility requires a ferry permit.

[apiaguy]

I don't agree with that DME. Must be some confusion there.

 

There are very little FAA inspectors out there to oversee this kind of thing. If your a major 135 op. there may be more paper work and people in line to account for these kinds of things but for the part 61 flight schools and other non air-carrier type operations, no one is looking over your shoulder to know when that thing ticked its last tock... you as the pilot are supposed to know and no ramp check will reveal when it was last completed.

[Nearly Retired]

Avbug:

Turbine helicopters must be inspected under an approved inspection program and meet all the component life limitations and replacement intervals specified by the manufacturer. In all cases, an alternate progressive inspection program may be used, but this must be an approved program.

 

 

Ahhhhh, that's a negative, Ghostrider. You are, as usual, mistaken. Turbine helicopters don't have to do anything. If they're used for compensation or hire, they only have to have an Annual/100-hour.

 

That is all, thank you.

[aeroscout]

The pattern is filling quickly.

[avbug]

You might not get any flak if you exceeded by a few tenths due to unexpected wind or weather diversion, that would be pretty easy to explain and may get you a pass. I think there may even be a Chief Counsel opinion letter supporting that but it has been a while and I can't research it right now.

 

Now according to the DME that administered my A&P test - a little known factoid is that to fly past that 100 hour inspection in order to transport the aircraft to a maintenance facility requires a ferry permit.

 

A special flight permit is not needed to exceed the 100 hours, because the authorization to make that excursion is specifically authorized by the regulation under 14 CFR 91.409( b ). The aircraft is not unairworthy, and therefore does not require a "ferry permit." It isn't airworthy for the carriage of passengers for hire, but it can certainly be flown to a facility where the inspection can be performed.

 

What cannot be done is to use those 10 hours for the carriage of passengers in operations for hire, when the operation in question requires compliance with 91.409( b ).

Edited September 18, 2014 by avbug

[avbug]

Avbug:

 

 

Ahhhhh, that's a negative, Ghostrider. You are, as usual, mistaken. Turbine helicopters don't have to do anything. If they're used for compensation or hire, they only have to have an Annual/100-hour.

 

That is all, thank you.

 

§91.409 Inspections.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph © of this section, no person may operate an aircraft unless, within the preceding 12 calendar months, it has had—

(1) An annual inspection in accordance with part 43 of this chapter and has been approved for return to service by a person authorized by §43.7 of this chapter; or

(2) An inspection for the issuance of an airworthiness certificate in accordance with part 21 of this chapter.

No inspection performed under paragraph ( b ) of this section may be substituted for any inspection required by this paragraph unless it is performed by a person authorized to perform annual inspections and is entered as an “annual” inspection in the required maintenance records.

( b ) Except as provided in paragraph © of this section, no person may operate an aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) for hire, and no person may give flight instruction for hire in an aircraft which that person provides, unless within the preceding 100 hours of time in service the aircraft has received an annual or 100-hour inspection and been approved for return to service in accordance with part 43 of this chapter or has received an inspection for the issuance of an airworthiness certificate in accordance with part 21 of this chapter. The 100-hour limitation may be exceeded by not more than 10 hours while en route to reach a place where the inspection can be done. The excess time used to reach a place where the inspection can be done must be included in computing the next 100 hours of time in service.

© Paragraphs (a) and ( b ) of this section do not apply to—

(1) An aircraft that carries a special flight permit, a current experimental certificate, or a light-sport or provisional airworthiness certificate;

(2) An aircraft inspected in accordance with an approved aircraft inspection program under part 125 or 135 of this chapter and so identified by the registration number in the operations specifications of the certificate holder having the approved inspection program;

(3) An aircraft subject to the requirements of paragraph (d) or (e) of this section; or

(4) Turbine-powered rotorcraft when the operator elects to inspect that rotorcraft in accordance with paragraph (e) of this section.

(d) Progressive inspection. Each registered owner or operator of an aircraft desiring to use a progressive inspection program must submit a written request to the FAA Flight Standards district office having jurisdiction over the area in which the applicant is located, and shall provide—

(1) A certificated mechanic holding an inspection authorization, a certificated airframe repair station, or the manufacturer of the aircraft to supervise or conduct the progressive inspection;

(2) A current inspection procedures manual available and readily understandable to pilot and maintenance personnel containing, in detail—

(i) An explanation of the progressive inspection, including the continuity of inspection responsibility, the making of reports, and the keeping of records and technical reference material;

(ii) An inspection schedule, specifying the intervals in hours or days when routine and detailed inspections will be performed and including instructions for exceeding an inspection interval by not more than 10 hours while en route and for changing an inspection interval because of service experience;

(iii) Sample routine and detailed inspection forms and instructions for their use; and

(iv) Sample reports and records and instructions for their use;

(3) Enough housing and equipment for necessary disassembly and proper inspection of the aircraft; and

(4) Appropriate current technical information for the aircraft.

The frequency and detail of the progressive inspection shall provide for the complete inspection of the aircraft within each 12 calendar months and be consistent with the manufacturer's recommendations, field service experience, and the kind of operation in which the aircraft is engaged. The progressive inspection schedule must ensure that the aircraft, at all times, will be airworthy and will conform to all applicable FAA aircraft specifications, type certificate data sheets, airworthiness directives, and other approved data. If the progressive inspection is discontinued, the owner or operator shall immediately notify the local FAA Flight Standards district office, in writing, of the discontinuance. After the discontinuance, the first annual inspection under §91.409(a)(1) is due within 12 calendar months after the last complete inspection of the aircraft under the progressive inspection. The 100-hour inspection under §91.409( b ) is due within 100 hours after that complete inspection. A complete inspection of the aircraft, for the purpose of determining when the annual and 100-hour inspections are due, requires a detailed inspection of the aircraft and all its components in accordance with the progressive inspection. A routine inspection of the aircraft and a detailed inspection of several components is not considered to be a complete inspection.

(e) Large airplanes (to which part 125 is not applicable), turbojet multiengine airplanes, turbopropeller-powered multiengine airplanes, and turbine-powered rotorcraft. No person may operate a large airplane, turbojet multiengine airplane, turbopropeller-powered multiengine airplane, or turbine-powered rotorcraft unless the replacement times for life-limited parts specified in the aircraft specifications, type data sheets, or other documents approved by the Administrator are complied with and the airplane or turbine-powered rotorcraft, including the airframe, engines, propellers, rotors, appliances, survival equipment, and emergency equipment, is inspected in accordance with an inspection program selected under the provisions of paragraph (f) of this section, except that, the owner or operator of a turbine-powered rotorcraft may elect to use the inspection provisions of §91.409(a), ( b ), ©, or (d) in lieu of an inspection option of §91.409(f).

(f) Selection of inspection program under paragraph (e) of this section. The registered owner or operator of each airplane or turbine-powered rotorcraft described in paragraph (e) of this section must select, identify in the aircraft maintenance records, and use one of the following programs for the inspection of the aircraft:

(1) A continuous airworthiness inspection program that is part of a continuous airworthiness maintenance program currently in use by a person holding an air carrier operating certificate or an operating certificate issued under part 121 or 135 of this chapter and operating that make and model aircraft under part 121 of this chapter or operating that make and model under part 135 of this chapter and maintaining it under §135.411(a)(2) of this chapter.

(2) An approved aircraft inspection program approved under §135.419 of this chapter and currently in use by a person holding an operating certificate issued under part 135 of this chapter.

(3) A current inspection program recommended by the manufacturer.

(4) Any other inspection program established by the registered owner or operator of that airplane or turbine-powered rotorcraft and approved by the Administrator under paragraph (g) of this section. However, the Administrator may require revision of this inspection program in accordance with the provisions of §91.415.

Each operator shall include in the selected program the name and address of the person responsible for scheduling the inspections required by the program and make a copy of that program available to the person performing inspections on the aircraft and, upon request, to the Administrator.

(g) Inspection program approved under paragraph (e) of this section. Each operator of an airplane or turbine-powered rotorcraft desiring to establish or change an approved inspection program under paragraph (f)(4) of this section must submit the program for approval to the local FAA Flight Standards district office having jurisdiction over the area in which the aircraft is based. The program must be in writing and include at least the following information:

(1) Instructions and procedures for the conduct of inspections for the particular make and model airplane or turbine-powered rotorcraft, including necessary tests and checks. The instructions and procedures must set forth in detail the parts and areas of the airframe, engines, propellers, rotors, and appliances, including survival and emergency equipment required to be inspected.

(2) A schedule for performing the inspections that must be performed under the program expressed in terms of the time in service, calendar time, number of system operations, or any combination of these.

(h) Changes from one inspection program to another. When an operator changes from one inspection program under paragraph (f) of this section to another, the time in service, calendar times, or cycles of operation accumulated under the previous program must be applied in determining inspection due times under the new program.

Edited September 18, 2014 by avbug

[avbug]

Avbug:

 

 

Ahhhhh, that's a negative, Ghostrider. You are, as usual, mistaken. Turbine helicopters don't have to do anything. If they're used for compensation or hire, they only have to have an Annual/100-hour.

 

That is all, thank you.

 

Despite the glitches in the web board software that don't allow references to subparagraphs in the regulation without replacing them with smilies, the regulation is before you, and you have it backward.

 

Turbine powered helicopters are exempt from the requirement to conduct 100 hour inspections, specifically 14 CFR 91.409( b ). The operator MUST comply with all manufacturer replacement intervals and life limits, as required under 91.409( e ). If the operator is not conducting 100 hour inspections and maintaining the aircraft under a 100 hour inspection program, then the turbine helicopter must be maintained under a progressive inspection program approved by the Administrator.

 

A 100 hour inspection must cover the scope and detail of an annual inspection; the only difference between the annual inspection and the 100 hour inspection is that the holder of a mechanic certificate with airframe and powerplant ratings can sign off the 100 hour (an A&P), while an annual requires the signature of the holder of an inspection authorization (IA).

[TCHone]

I think avbug has it right but little confusing in the explanation. You can do 100hr/annual OR progressive 91.409 b

Edited September 18, 2014 by TCHone

[avbug]

You are required to do the 100 hour inspections, unless you use an approved inspection program in lieu of the 100 hour regime. In either case, you are required to comply with all the life limited and time limited component replacement and inspection intervals spelled out in the maintenance publications by the manufacturer or airworthiness section of the aircraft flight manual.

 

The original question pertained to exceeding the 100 hour inspection interval during a revenue flight. This is not acceptable. If you know that the flight will exceed the upcoming inspection interval, then you don't have enough time available on the aircraft to conduct that flight. Perform the inspection.

 

Someone commented that a special flight permit ("ferry permit") is required to move the aircraft after the 100 hour point. This is not the case, as the regulation already provides that one may move the aircraft following the inspection interval. Moreover, if one doesn't intend to carry passengers for hire, one can fly it another hundred hours without the inspection, if one desires, without being in violation of the regulation (unless the aircraft is under an approved maintenance program requiring that inspection). For example, one is at hour 99 and flies a passenger for 45 minutes. One then takes a 40 hour personal flight in the aircraft. A 100 hour inspection is not required until one intends to fly passengers for hire again.

 

The purpose of the inspection is the subsequent flying, not past flying; in other words one isn't inspecting the aircraft to ensure it's safe for passenger flights that have already been flown. One is inspecting it for flights yet to come. If one no longer intends to operate the aircraft in a manner requiring the 100 hour inspections, one doesn't need to do them any longer. If one hasn't elected to operate under an alternate inspection program, however (eg, 91409(e)), then one must continue the inspection intervals and deduct the transit time to an inspection facility. As always, the devil is in the details, and specifics of the operation matter.

 

Once the 100 hour inspection has been accomplished (again, the equivalent of an annual inspection, the same as alternative inspection programs that must equal an annual inspection every 12 calendar months), the 100 hour time period for flying passengers for hire is reset.

 

If one is doing continuous flying of passengers for hire and is operating under 91.409( b ) in maintaining those 100 hour inspections, one could fly until hour 99, fly the passenger for 45 minutes, and land. Then one could fly 5 hours and fifteen minutes to the inspection facility, and have the 100 hour inspection performed. One then has 95 hours before the next 100 hour is due. A special flight permit was not required to fly to the inspection facility.

[eagle5]

Who needs a "ferry permit"? I've never heard of that one?

[avbug]

A "ferry permit" is a slang term for a special flight authorization, often used when an aircraft must be moved in an otherwise unairworthy condition, or to be operated outside the parameters of the aircrraft certification. Moving an aircraft that's not current on its annual inspection, for example, can be done with approval on a special flight authorization. A mechanic or inspector must attest that the aircraft is airworthy, and the authorization is generally good for a specific time period, and often comes with limitations attached.

 

A special flight authorization or ferry permit is a means of temporarily making the airplane legal, or in other words, bringing it into conformity for the duration of the permit, under the circumstances spelled out in the permit.

[Nearly Retired]

Oh Avbug, why must you constantly complicate every dang issue and post? I suppose that goes along with the ALS you are undoubtedly experiencing at this advanced age. So I guess I should be kind. But the details are in the act of reading comprehension. And here is where Avbug's confusion sets in. It's kind of like when I ask my grandpa what he had for breakfast this morning? And then he looks at me and says, "Who are you again?" And I say, "I'm your goddamn favorite grandson, you daft old poofter! The pilot! What are you, senile?"

 

Yeah, like that.

 

Okay, here we go...

 

Under FAR part-91.409 *a* and *b*, a turbine helicopter operated for hire need ONLY have a 100-hour/Annual. That is all. Period, end of discussion. Shut the lights out, go home.

 

However, as usual the FAA allows alternatives. If you don't want to do 100-hours, then you may use "progressive inspections." If you want to run your fleet of tuna-spotting Hughes 500's on a progressive inspection program, that is fine. You just have to get FAA approval for it.

 

91.409*c* says that parts *a* and *b* do not apply to...

Turbine-powered rotorcraft when the operator elects to inspect that rotorcraft in accordance with paragraph *e* of this section.

 

Whoa! See that word, "elects?" It means that you can choose to if you want. It is not mandatory. Totally your option. In other words, you *might* want to go by section *e*, but you don't have to.

 

Okay then! Soooooooo, what does 91.409*e* say??

 

91.409*e* says,

No person may operate a large airplane, turbojet multiengine airplane, turbopropeller-powered multiengine airplane, or turbine-powered rotorcraft unless the replacement times for life-limited parts specified in the aircraft specifications, type data sheets, or other documents approved by the Administrator are complied with and the airplane or turbine-powered rotorcraft, including the airframe, engines, propellers, rotors, appliances, survival equipment, and emergency equipment, is inspected in accordance with an inspection program selected under the provisions of paragraph *f* of this section, except that...

 

Okay so far...but here's the clincher, and this gets back to what they said before...

 

...except that, the owner or operator of a turbine-powered rotorcraft may elect (there's that word again! -Ed.) to use the inspection provisions of §91.409*a*, *b*, *c*, or *d* in lieu of an inspection option of §91.409*f*.

 

Jeez-Louise, what does 91.409*f* say?

 

The registered owner or operator of each airplane or turbine-powered rotorcraft described in paragraph (e) of this section must select, identify in the aircraft maintenance records, and use one of the following programs for the inspection of the aircraft:...

 

And then they list the different types of inspection programs you could select. But again, you don't have to. You *could* just go by 91.409*a* and *b*, in which case ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS A 100-HOUR/ANNUAL.

 

What it comes down to is that you, Mr. Turbine Helicopter Operator, do *not* have to go by 91.409*e*. You may ELECT to, but you don't have to. You can ignore it. Somewhere in my archives is a letter from the FAA in Washington to an operator of a turbine-powered helicopter telling him in no uncertain terms that he did *not* have to abide by component retirement times between Annual/100-Hour Inspections. (Obviously, no self-respecting A&P/IA is going to sign off an Annual inspection on a helicopter with components beyond their finite life-limit.)

 

Now, wasn't that easy?

 

And by the way, it was scrambled eggs and sausage with OJ and coffee.

[avbug]

The operator of a turbine powered helicopter who elects to operate under 100 hour inspections instead of an alternate inspection program is still bound and beholden to the requirement of 91.409(e), with respect to compliance with all component limitations. This requirement exists regardless of whether one elects to pursue a 100 hour inspection program, or an alternate program under 91.409(f).

 

This requirement exists if the rotorcraft is maintained under 91.409( b ) with 100 hour inspections, and it exists if the rotorcraft is inspected under an alternate inspection program (eg, progressive inspection) under 91.409(f).

[fleman202]

This is why I asked for everyone's interpretations of the Reg's. While the turbine stuff really doesn't apply to me and I didn't ask whether I would actually need a 100 hr or not (I do). I am assuming at some point in my career I will need to know the requirements for turbine engines so I am glad to start leaning them now. I really appreciate the input from everyone with more experience than I have. If anyone has ever been faced with a situation like this in "real life" I would love to hear about it.

 

Everyone is welcome to our come to our hanger this weekend and we can keep discussing regulations together! Ill even invite the local FSDO and supply the pizza!

[Nearly Retired]

Avnut:

The operator of a turbine powered helicopter who elects to operate under 100 hour inspections instead of an alternate inspection program is still bound and beholden to the requirement of 91.409(e), with respect to compliance with all component limitations. This requirement exists regardless of whether one elects to pursue a 100 hour inspection program, or an alternate program under 91.409(f).

 

 

Nope! Negative, gramps. Not true. Can't you read? Parts (a) and (b ) give you the OPTION of adhering to part (e). If you do ELECT to choose part (e) then you must specify a progressive inspection program defined in part (f).

 

Part (e) does not apply. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO GO BY PART (e). If that were the case, the FAA would have specified in parts (a) and (b ) that stuff about retirement times and component limitations. But they did not.

 

Read it for yourself. Read it slowly. 91.409(b ) (4) doesn't say that you *have* to go by one of the inspection programs listed in subpart (f). It only says that you *can*. You *may*. But you can continue to march and go by (a) and (b ) and forget about the (e) if you like.

 

I'm telling you, the FAA has affimed this - under Part-91 of course, not Part-135. I wish it was not the case - really! But it is.

[aeroscout]

I hate it that knowledgeable well meaning pilots can interpret the FARs in more than one way.

I don't care what anyone says, they are not straightforward in many cases, and they are intelligible only to lawyers and lawyer like thinkers.

[avbug]

Avnut:

 

 

Nope! Negative, gramps. Not true. Can't you read? Parts (a) and (b ) give you the OPTION of adhering to part (e). If you do ELECT to choose part (e) then you must specify a progressive inspection program defined in part (f).

 

Part (e) does not apply. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO GO BY PART (e). If that were the case, the FAA would have specified in parts (a) and (b ) that stuff about retirement times and component limitations. But they did not.

 

Read it for yourself. Read it slowly. 91.409(b ) (4) doesn't say that you *have* to go by one of the inspection programs listed in subpart (f). It only says that you *can*. You *may*. But you can continue to march and go by (a) and (b ) and forget about the (e) if you like.

 

I'm telling you, the FAA has affimed this - under Part-91 of course, not Part-135. I wish it was not the case - really! But it is.

 

I read quite well. Well enough to have been assigned as Director of Maintenance at two different operations (but maybe it was a fluke).

 

You aren't very good at it, however, so for the benefit of those who might mistakenly believe your misunderstanding of the regulation, we'll tackle it again.

 

To start with, there is NOTHING in 91.409(a) or 91.409( b ) which stipulates that compliance with 91.409(e) is unnecessary. Nothing. Let's look at it again.

 

(a) Except as provided in paragraph © of this section, no person may operate an aircraft unless, within the preceding 12 calendar months, it has had—

(1) An annual inspection in accordance with part 43 of this chapter and has been approved for return to service by a person authorized by §43.7 of this chapter; or

(2) An inspection for the issuance of an airworthiness certificate in accordance with part 21 of this chapter.

No inspection performed under paragraph ( b ) of this section may be substituted for any inspection required by this paragraph unless it is performed by a person authorized to perform annual inspections and is entered as an “annual” inspection in the required maintenance records.

( b ) Except as provided in paragraph © of this section, no person may operate an aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) for hire, and no person may give flight instruction for hire in an aircraft which that person provides, unless within the preceding 100 hours of time in service the aircraft has received an annual or 100-hour inspection and been approved for return to service in accordance with part 43 of this chapter or has received an inspection for the issuance of an airworthiness certificate in accordance with part 21 of this chapter. The 100-hour limitation may be exceeded by not more than 10 hours while en route to reach a place where the inspection can be done. The excess time used to reach a place where the inspection can be done must be included in computing the next 100 hours of time in service.

 

91.109(a) provides that an annual inspection, or the equivalent thereof, must be performed within every 12 calendar month period. This may be a single inspection (an "annual"), or it may be a series of inspections over the duration of that 12 calendar month period. 100 hour inspections, while required to be the same scope and equal in performance and detail to an annual inspection, do not cover the requirement of 91.409(a) unless performed by an IA and signed off as an annual. Those not wishing to comply with the requirement of an annual may use an approved inspection program (eg, a "progressive" inspection or continuous airworthiness inspection), referenced later in the regulation. An airworthiness certificate conformity inspection may also fulfill the requirement of an annual.

 

91.409( b ) sets the requirement for 100 hour inspections. These are mandatory, unless an alternate inspection program has been approved by the Administrator, and selected by the operator. 91.409 ( b ) makes no reference to 91.409(e), and does NOT relieve the owner/operator of meeting the airworthiness requirements of 91.409(e).

 

Nothing in 91.409(a) or ( b ) references subparagraph (e), and nothing in the former two paragraphs (a and b ) make any reference to (e).

 

Moving on...91.409© establishes that a turbine helicopter does NOT need to comply with the annual inspection requirement or the 100 hour inspection requirements of (a) or ( b ) IF the operator elects to use an alternate approved inspection program in accordance with subparagraph F.

 

Regardless of whether the operator elects to use 91.409(a) for the annual and ( b ) for the 100 hour, or instead uses an alternate inspection program under 91.409(f), the owner/operator MUST comply with subparagraph 91.409(e)'s requirement to respect life limitations and replacement times. This requirement is not removed by performing an annual or 100 hour inspection.

 

You said that 91.409(a) and ( b ) give the option of complying with 91.409(e), and this is NOT the case. There is no language in eithef (a) or ( b ) referencing (e) or in any way hinting or suggesting that compliance with (e) is not mandatory. None.

 

You may be thinking of subparagraph (f) when you are saying (e), and if that is the case, then yes, the operator does not need to select an alternate inspection program under (f). The operator may wish to stick with a plain-jane annual, and perform 100 hour inspections (in accordance with (a) and ( b )). The operator is still beholden to (e). The operator may elect to seek approval under an alternate inspection program under (f). The operator is STILL beholden to (e).

 

It's really not that complicated, although you certainly seem have a hard time understanding it.

Edited September 20, 2014 by avbug

[Nearly Retired]

Well I'll give you that, gramps, there is nothing in 91.409 (a) or (b ) about part (e). You're right. I misspoke if I said that they did. The clarification actually comes in 91.409(c ). It is there that you find the wording that turbine helicopter operators *MAY* elect to go by part (e). If they do not *elect* to go by part (e), then parts (a) and (b ) apply. You may THINK that part (e) is mandatory, but I assure you it is not.

 

And again I implore you...beg you...read part (e) again. When you do, you'll find that the first part...the part that deals with component times, etc. applies but they say "AND" when you choose one of the various progression inspection programs.

 

Look, I'll break it down for you:

 

No person may operate a...

 

turbine-powered rotorcraft...

 

unless the replacement times for life-limited parts specified in the aircraft specifications, type data sheets, or other documents approved by the Administrator are complied with...

 

AND...

 

the turbine-powered rotorcraft, including the airframe, engines, propellers, rotors, appliances, survival equipment, and emergency equipment...

 

is inspected in accordance with an inspection program selected under the provisions of paragraph (f) of this section...

 

Okay, got that? Both of those clauses go together. The first part...that bit about inspections, is linked to the second part...that bit about choosing a progressive inspection program.

 

But again, all this is irrelevant if you simply choose to go by 91.409(a) and (b ). In fact, part (e) even repeats it!

 

...except that, the owner or operator of a turbine-powered rotorcraft may elect to use the inspection provisions of §91.409(a), (b ), (c ), or (d) in lieu of an inspection option of §91.409(f).

 

And if you choose to go by (a) or (b ), then you don't have to go by (e ).

 

Here is how I know this. When I was with FH1100 Manufacturing, there was one of "our" ships (manufactured before my friend bought the TC) which had components that were over their life limit. We knew this for a fact. We wanted the ship grounded; the owner told us to go screw off. He sent us a copy of a letter from the FAA in Washington that said, basically, that life limits do *not* apply under Part 91! We were flabbergasted to say the least. And there was nothing we could do.

 

Separately, I also had an A&P/IA come to me one day with a hypothetical situation. And this guy was sharp - he was no corner-cutter or schlub. He asked, "Suppose I Annual my own ship, but the tail rotor blades only have 25 hours left on their life at the time of the Inspection. They are not timed-out, so I sign the Annual off. I end up flying the ship over 25 hours that year. Am I illegal?"

 

I had to stop and scratch my head. My gut reaction was, "You cannot overfly a life-limited component." Because logically...emotionally we *want* the operator/pilot to be responsible for adhering to the component life-limits. But the FAA does not look at it that way, as we found out with the FH1100 (which ultimately ended up crashing when the guy ran it out of fuel, by the way).

 

I know that historically we consider finite life limits to be mandatory for all helicopters (piston and turbine) operated under all parts. We've thought that way for so long that we get to believing that the regulations require it.

 

But we are wrong.

 

And by "we", I mean Avbug.

[aeroscout]

Lead balloon trial, take 1...

[iChris]

Although paragraph [e] of § 91.409, permits "the operator of a turbine-powered rotorcraft to elect to use the inspection provisions of § 91.409[a], , [c], or (d] in lieu of an inspection option of section 91.409(f)," paragraph [c] specifically states that paragraph [a] and of that section do not apply to "an aircraft that carries ... a current experimental certificate" or to "turbine powered rotorcraft when the operator elects to inspect that rotorcraft in accordance with paragraph [e] of this section."

 

This applies to the options of inspection requirements not the replacement of life-limited parts under §91.409 [e]. You are not given an option with respect to the replacement of life-limited parts since you are still bound by §43.16.

 

However, The key is to determine if the limit is mandatory or just a manufactures recommendation. It’s like the Robinson R22 limit at 2200 hours or the engine overhaul requirement, not mandatory under Part 91.

 

See the 2011 link: R22 Airworthiness past 2200 hrs.

 

§ 43.10 - Life-limited part means any part for which a mandatory replacement limit is specified in the type design, the Instructions for Continued Airworthiness, or the maintenance manual.

 

REF: FAA Order 8620.2: 9. Life Limits and Placarding. Adherence to component life limit retirement times listed on a TCDS is required by §43.16 or §91.409(e), and a requirement to follow placard instructions is required by § 91.9(a).

 

“Some OEM’s have placed mandatory language such as “shall,” “must,” and “will” on their TCDS that imply that compliance with TCDS notes is mandatory. However, in the absence of regulatory language, or an AD that makes such TCDS notes mandatory, compliance with such notes is not mandatory.

 

REF LINKS:

 

FAA Order 8620.2A - Applicability and Enforcement of Manufacturer’s Data

 

Legal Interpretation on the Use of Manufacturers' Publications to Determine Inspection Intervals and Replacement Times; MacMillan 2011

 

 

CLICK PHOTO TO ENLARGE

Edited September 22, 2014 by iChris