Best Helicopter for ranch work / hog control?

[Jwrey206]

Hi all,

 

My boss is looking to purchase a helicopter to keep on his ranch. I'm looking for suggestions on which type do y'all think would work best for us?

 

It will mostly be used to patrol/inspect the fences and to transport one or two people with a small amount of gear not more than 40 miles round trip. Also it will occasionally be used for hog control and sightseeing.

We would like to try to keep things simple and reliable.

 

Ranch is around 1000ft MSL and its gets hot in the summer +100.

 

So far we have been looking at Hiller "E" (can't find one) or a Bell 47G4. However due to the lack of support for the Hiller and the general age of both we are concerned about being able to keep it in the air. Anyone with recent experience operating these?

 

We don't think it will be flow more than 100hrs a year but this is our first helicopter so that could very well change.

 

I thank you all in advance for the advice.

 

 

p.s. An R22 is too small and the boss is not a fan of the 44 although I'm sure many of you are.

 

 

[Flying Pig]

I'm a 300C fan myself.

[500F]

What is the budget? You cannot beat a 500D or an OH6A with a C20B for game capture but you are going to spend 600k or so for an airworthy ship depending on component times.

 

I wouldn't use any semi rigid rotor for hog control, especially Robinsons, you are one abrupt maneuver away from mast bumping in a flight regime that often calls for (or lends itself to) abrupt maneuvers.

 

Anything can be used to patrol the fence - You might run into range issues if you are going really slow with an R22 unless you've got 2 featherweights and can fill both tanks.

 

With an R22 or 300 you are limited to 2 or 2.3 people for sightseeing, with a 500 you can take 3 comfortably. A 206 or R44 gets you 3.5. I've never flown a Hiller so I wont comment.

 

Should you ever have the need, provided you have a proficient pilot, the 500 is the ultimate ship for external loads as well.

 

The biggest disadvantage to the 500 is going to be cost, and the fact that you need a big garage door to push it inside due to the 5 bladed rotor system.

[Dragbrace]

My pick would be the 47. With Scott Bell acquiring the type certificate, parts should become a non issue. I have mustered cattle, herded elk, wild horses

and done preditor control all out of a 47 and it is an excellent machine for the job. With a set of cargo racks you can haul anything you would need to maintain fences, gates etc. They are slow compared to today's machines but if all you need is a forty mile radius it would be the perfect ship for the job.

[Astro]

Enstrom?

[OneCoqui]

Take a look at a Bell 47 G2...

[Jwrey206]

Thanks everyone for the replies.

 

I'm a 300C fan myself.

 

I'm finishing my commercial add in a 300C and i'm a fan of the flying but from what I understand the support is going away and its getting harder to find parts. Definitely would be interested in one if I was sure we could keep it going. Well the lack of baggage space is a big negative too. Also, I was wrong on the field elevation, it's more like 2k MSL.

 

Think we would have any issue at max gross in the summer?

 

 

What is the budget? You cannot beat a 500D or an OH6A with a C20B for game capture but you are going to spend 600k or so for an airworthy ship depending on component times.

 

I wouldn't use any semi rigid rotor for hog control, especially Robinsons, you are one abrupt maneuver away from mast bumping in a flight regime that often calls for (or lends itself to) abrupt maneuvers.

 

Anything can be used to patrol the fence - You might run into range issues if you are going really slow with an R22 unless you've got 2 featherweights and can fill both tanks.

 

With an R22 or 300 you are limited to 2 or 2.3 people for sightseeing, with a 500 you can take 3 comfortably. A 206 or R44 gets you 3.5. I've never flown a Hiller so I wont comment.

 

Should you ever have the need, provided you have a proficient pilot, the 500 is the ultimate ship for external loads as well.

 

The biggest disadvantage to the 500 is going to be cost, and the fact that you need a big garage door to push it inside due to the 5 bladed rotor system.

 

We could afford a 500/206 but I would have to justify the increase in expenses and I think that would difficult at this time. I haven't been given a hard number yet but I think 200k or less for our first bird. He would need an additional reason(s) to use a turbine, which at them moment we haven't thought of.... yet

 

My pick would be the 47. With Scott Bell acquiring the type certificate, parts should become a non issue. I have mustered cattle, herded elk, wild horses
and done preditor control all out of a 47 and it is an excellent machine for the job. With a set of cargo racks you can haul anything you would need to maintain fences, gates etc. They are slow compared to today's machines but if all you need is a forty mile radius it would be the perfect ship for the job.

 

Where do the cargo racks mount, side of the skids?

 

Take a look at a Bell 47 G2...

 

Performance wise, would we run into issues in the summer with a G2 or G4A? I have zero experience with these but for our entry helicopter i think it might be a good place to start. Just seem simple. Any idea what the DOC would be or the acquisition cost of a solid bird?

 

Enstrom?

Also a strong competitor. Seems like pretty solid birds with good support from the manufacturer.

Only down side is the larger hangar and the initial cost to get a good one. Again, would it be a performer in the summer with a heavy load?

 

 

 

 

 

[280fxColorado]

 

Also a strong competitor. Seems like pretty solid birds with good support from the manufacturer.

Only down side is the larger hangar and the initial cost to get a good one. Again, would it be a performer in the summer with a heavy load?

 

The Enstrom should be a solid contender for this role. Reasonably timed used F/FX models can be found under 200k, no problem.

 

What kind of loads are you hoping for?

 

F/Fx models have a useful load of ~900lbs (2600lbs max)

C model useful load around 650-700lbs (2350lbs max)

 

Baggage box is very helpful- 108lbs in the F/Fx models, 60lbs in the Cs.

 

I'd recommend the F28F or F28C-2 models for the bigger cabin size - more internal cargo space, roomier for passengers (actually tolerable with 2pax), better view with the wide single-pane windscreen. The doors are also a much better design than the 280's.

 

F/Fx models will give you a fuel burn of 14-18gph. C model fuel burn is remarkably lower performing the same tasks (similar payloads, cruise speeds, etc) with 11-15gph.

 

Enstrom's outstanding low and slow autorotation capability is a comforting asset for ranch work (mustering, fence patrol, etc).

 

Support IS top notch. Overnight parts is never a problem.

 

Pilot can perform 50hr/oil-changes and no recurring ADs means you only need to see an A&P for 100hrs, annuals, ooopses and surprises.

 

The piston Enstrom is a great little workhorse when maintained and flown properly. Safe, economical, robust, stable, and good lifters. They ARE a little trickier than other types to really finesse and optimize performance (manual throttle, turbo-lag, high inertia rotor lag, strong control forces and use of the trim system, manual fuel mixture adjustment). But they are surprisingly capable little buggers once you get used to it all. I have almost 3,000hrs in the type, let me know if you have other questions.

 

--JMc

[Jwrey206]

 

The Enstrom should be a solid contender for this role. Reasonably timed used F/FX models can be found under 200k, no problem.

 

What kind of loads are you hoping for?

 

F/Fx models have a useful load of ~900lbs (2600lbs max)

C model useful load around 650-700lbs (2350lbs max)

 

Baggage box is very helpful- 108lbs in the F/Fx models, 60lbs in the Cs.

 

I'd recommend the F28F or F28C-2 models for the bigger cabin size - more internal cargo space, roomier for passengers (actually tolerable with 2pax), better view with the wide single-pane windscreen. The doors are also a much better design than the 280's.

 

F/Fx models will give you a fuel burn of 14-18gph. C model fuel burn is remarkably lower performing the same tasks (similar payloads, cruise speeds, etc) with 11-15gph.

 

Enstrom's outstanding low and slow autorotation capability is a comforting asset for ranch work (mustering, fence patrol, etc).

 

Support IS top notch. Overnight parts is never a problem.

 

Pilot can perform 50hr/oil-changes and no recurring ADs means you only need to see an A&P for 100hrs, annuals, ooopses and surprises.

 

The piston Enstrom is a great little workhorse when maintained and flown properly. Safe, economical, robust, stable, and good lifters. They ARE a little trickier than other types to really finesse and optimize performance (manual throttle, turbo-lag, high inertia rotor lag, strong control forces and use of the trim system, manual fuel mixture adjustment). But they are surprisingly capable little buggers once you get used to it all. I have almost 3,000hrs in the type, let me know if you have other questions.

 

--JMc

 

Thanks for the great information!

 

Have you ever flown a 300C/269? I'm curious how they compare in flight...

 

Who is the go to guy for pre-buy?

 

Are the factory direct operating cost anything close to the factory quoted numbers online? I think it was in the $200/hr range.

[280fxColorado]

About 600hrs in the CB, CBi, and C models. Similar, but different! The 300 is my favorite helicopter to instruct in. Very nimble, smooth, and responsive. Learning to fly it is intuitive - it DOES what you tell it to and what you expect it to do. The 300C also has an impressive payload and range (especially with aux tank). The Enstrom is a bit more of a handful to learn and has some quirks (mostly throttle management) that take some getting used to. But it feels and flies like a much bigger helicopter than the 300. The 28/280 is also MUCH better performer at altitude and can handle turbulence that would stain your shorts in a 300.

 

John C. @ Vector Air in Erie, CO would be my first pick for a prebuy.

 

For DOCs, so many factors to consider - your mx costs, at what point in the helicopter's component time-life did you acquire it, surprises, etc. I would trust Conklin de Decker's "Variable Cost" summary for a more realistic picture than the manufacturer's #s:

 

https://www.conklindd.com/CDALibrary/ACCostSummary.aspx

 

(I cant get the table to format correctly, but here are Conklin's estimates)

 

Guimbal Helicopters Cabri G2

$199

Robinson R22 Beta II

$214

Sikorsky S-300CBi

$233

Sikorsky S-300C

$257

Enstrom 280C

$271

Enstrom 280FX

$282

Enstrom F-28F

$282

Robinson R44 Raven I

$309

Robinson R44 Raven II

$318

Scotts Helicopter Scotts Bell 47G-3B

$350

Hiller 12 E3

$404

Enstrom 480

$472

Enstrom 480B

$472

Robinson R66 Turbine

$474

Sikorsky S-330 SP

$494

Sikorsky S-333

$528

Airbus Helicopters EC 120B

$564

Bell 206B3

$572

Bell 206BR

$580

MD Helicopters MD 500C

$585

MD Helicopters MD 500E

$600

MD Helicopters MD 500ER

$608

MD Helicopters MD 500D

$615

MD Helicopters MD 520N

$659

Soloy AS350 SD1

$670

Bell 206L4

$680

...

[Jwrey206]

280FXColorado

 

Thanks for this great resource. I'm really enjoying learning to fly in the 300C.

 

I've narrowed it down to either a F28F/FX or a Bell 47 of a yet undetermined model. The 300c would be a lot of fun and it's what i have all my hours in. The lack of baggage space is what really hurts it. I guess the next step is to try and find each and fly them.

 

Can anyone with 47 experience give me an idea of which model would be a good performer for the DA up to 5-6k? Also, tips on the transition or differences from fully articulated to semi-rigid/underslung rotor system.

 

thank you all

 

 

 

[TCHone]

Use the R44 for hog controll all the time. What abrupt inputs lead to mast bumping? I know a lot of people who use R22/R44 for hog hunting, Mast bumping doesn't come up much.

[ascj]

I operate a CBI and for extra gear I use litter racks. I have also seen a fibreglass pod that bolts on to the aux tank spot. In the same shape as a tank. Just a thought

[ascj]

As for the 47s the 3b1's (turbocharged) are excellent at altitude, stay away from the g4's (540) and get the 900series transmission. G5's and g2s are non turbocharged but good ships powered by the lycoming 435.

I wouldn't worry about the transition from different rotor system, don't do negative g.

[adam32]

Soloy Hiller or 47.

[500F]

After 300 hours in Robinsons, I wouldn't use them for anything other than A to B flights without any abrupt maneuvers. Maybe I'm too conservative, but there are too many accidents like the one in salt lake city yesterday.

 

Note: I haven't done hog hunting myself but cant imagine its too different than game capture, you are going to be making a lot of maneuvers to line up shots at running game,

 

I take that back, I'll just stick to 500s and wont worry about it...

[eagle5]

Give Robbie another few hundred hours, you'll get the hang of it.

[OneCoqui]

B47 G2 DOC $223 to $250 p/hr....

[500F]

On a separate note. I cant imagine why the 500D has a higher cost per hour than an E. True, they are older and may in theory have more little things overlooked over time that can sneak up on you. However, assuming the same condition upon purchase the D should be cheaper than the E. The larger 600 transmission they have been putting in Es for the past few years is considerably more expensive to overhaul. It adds about $13.50 hour to operating cost and adds weight. I cant think of any part that would be more expensive on a D than an E.

[Spike]

A helicopter is simply a tool. For working pilots, being a “fan” is not a part of the vernacular. I like to fly certain helicopters but I get paid to fly others…. In any case, while there a many machines which could suit your needs, it will boil down to the operational cost over the long term. This fact should be the main consideration. With that, and sorry to say, the R44 is probably the best fit for what you are looking to do. Low maintenance costs, fits 3 PAX (1 up front and 2 in the back, ala not crammed in side-by-side) or 1 PAX plus cargo (I believe DART makes a cargo basket as well) and decent performance. While I’m not a “fan” as you would say, of the R44, it is the best tool for the job you describe. If cost is not an issue, then the Bell 206 would be the way to go.....

 

In the end, you’ll just have to ask the boss. Do you want the best tool for the job, or just a tool……

Edited December 5, 2014 by Spike

[adam32]

Here's a Soloy Hiller for sale. It's actually a friend of mine and it's a nice machine.

 

http://www.barnstormers.com/cat.php?mode=listing&main=

[Jwrey206]

A helicopter is simply a tool. For working pilots, being a fan is not a part of the vernacular. I like to fly certain helicopters but I get paid to fly others. In any case, while there a many machines which could suit your needs, it will boil down to the operational cost over the long term. This fact should be the main consideration. With that, and sorry to say, the R44 is probably the best fit for what you are looking to do. Low maintenance costs, fits 3 PAX (1 up front and 2 in the back, ala not crammed in side-by-side) or 1 PAX plus cargo (I believe DART makes a cargo basket as well) and decent performance. While Im not a fan as you would say, of the R44, it is the best tool for the job you describe. If cost is not an issue, then the Bell 206 would be the way to go.....

 

In the end, youll just have to ask the boss. Do you want the best tool for the job, or just a tool

 

I understand what you're saying, and you make a point. However, I'm concerned about the possible saftey issues with flying a lower inertia helicopter low and slow. I'm still very new to the rotor wing side of the house but would it not be safer to fly an enstrom or a 47? At least the 500 has a strong history of survivability if you do hit something

[Mikemv]

Here's a Soloy Hiller for sale. It's actually a friend of mine and it's a nice machine.

 

http://www.barnstormers.com/cat.php?mode=listing&main=

Where do you find main rotor blades for the 12E when they time out?

[Jwrey206]

Where do you find main rotor blades for the 12E when they time out?

I read on the hiller forum that the factory can make them but they need a minimum of like 10 sets for a run. Or you pay a stupidly high amount.

[adam32]

Where do you find main rotor blades for the 12E when they time out?

 

There's plenty around, just gotta know who to ask.