Cross Country Routes in WOFT

[N67RA]

I've been curious on the different cross country flights, both VFR and IFR, that were flown during training. Also what altitude AGL and how far are they? Are you required to fly in class B airspace as well?

[akscott60]

WOFT?

 

Do you mean Army flight school?

 

If so, not many. You may venture to Panama City, or up north somewhere. No B.

 

Frankly, flying cross country is a waste of blade time when the average student is barely grasping ATM maneuvers, systems, and oral knowledge.

[N67RA]

Frankly, flying cross country is a waste of blade time when the average student is barely grasping ATM maneuvers, systems, and oral knowledge.

Interesting. In what phase of training, if at all, do they test you on long distance navigation skills?

[akscott60]

None.

 

In instruments you fly victor airways. 1 nm or 50nm, no difference.

 

In advanced aircraft you are doing things like learning how to not crash and kill yourself. Or learning exceptionally complex systems to kill people with (Apache).

 

You will fly XC in your unit. After progression.

Edited February 5, 2016 by akscott60

[N67RA]

Thats surprising. For your commercial certificate, a xc of at least 250nm between airports is required. Even the PPL has xc requirements.

[Joe_P148]

We take a mil comp exam, no need for us to do a cross country flight for our commercial license it is not necessary for our mission.

 

I'm not sure how "cross country" is defined but almost all of your flights in the Army, not necessarily flight school are flying outside a traffic patten to a airport or open field somewhere.

 

We do long distance navigation we just don't call it cross country, it is a base task that all aviators must accomplish in flight school.

[akscott60]

Thats surprising. For your commercial certificate, a xc of at least 250nm between airports is required. Even the PPL has xc requirements.

 

I know. I am CFII fixed and rotary, military and civilian.

 

You will find that in the era of dual EGI, moving maps, and crewed aircraft, that doing a little 200nm XC is a waste of blade hours.

[adam32]

Thats surprising. For your commercial certificate, a xc of at least 250nm between airports is required. Even the PPL has xc requirements.

 

That's because the FAA wants to make sure that Joe Lawyer in his new shiny R44 will make it home safe after bringing his family to the ball game...The military has multiple pilots and crews to make sure the aircraft makes it home.

[Lindsey]

On the flip side, we do plenty of navigation by dead reckoning and pilotage, to what we call "RTs" (aka tiny little fields in the middle of nowhere alabama), especially in our BWS phase of training. We have cross country skills equal to or greater than the average civilian pilot at the same hour level. I am a civilian helicopter CFI and in the 60M course at Rucker. Sometimes we exceed 25nm, so by civilian standards we have met those requirements. And your 250nm reference is for fixed wing. For helicopters it is 150nm in the civilian world. We have no exact similar requirement in the Army.

[N67RA]

On the flip side, we do plenty of navigation by dead reckoning and pilotage, to what we call "RTs"

Good. That's the assumption I had. I've been doing all of my navigation without GPS and autopilot and only use VORs as a backup, if I'm high enough. It's all been pilotage and dead reckoning with a paper map to build the skill.

 

What places do you fly to that I can identify on the VFR sectionals?

[N67RA]

 

I know. I am CFII fixed and rotary, military and civilian.

 

You will find that in the era of dual EGI, moving maps, and crewed aircraft, that doing a little 200nm XC is a waste of blade hours.

I see. I guess the moving maps are sufficient for remote areas in the middle east...

[Lindsey]

Good. That's the assumption I had. I've been doing all of my navigation without GPS and autopilot and only use VORs as a backup, if I'm high enough. It's all been pilotage and dead reckoning with a paper map to build the skill.

 

What places do you fly to that I can identify on the VFR sectionals?

You can't identify the RTs on a sectional; the scale is too big. We use smaller maps. Some of the airports and stage fields we refuel at though, you can find. Andalusia, Troy, Florala, etc. Stagefields: tabernacle, brown, Stinson, Ech, there's a million. Look in the Alert area that surrounds Rucker. What's your flight background?

[Lindsey]

I see. I guess the moving maps are sufficient for remote areas in the middle east...

 

Well your other option is a sextant and celestial navigation. Good luck with that though.

[N67RA]

You can't identify the RTs on a sectional; the scale is too big. We use smaller maps. Some of the airports and stage fields we refuel at though, you can find. Andalusia, Troy, Florala, etc. Stagefields: tabernacle, brown, Stinson, Ech, there's a million. Look in the Alert area that surrounds Rucker. What's your flight background?

Oh ok. I found a couple of the places you mentioned. Are those smaller maps accessible online somewhere?

 

I have very little flight background. I have a PPL for ASEL and working on my commercial and instrument.

[Joe_P148]

Search for 1:250k JOG or 1:50k, I doubt you will find anything. Most of our maps are distributed through the nga which requires a military i.d. card to access.

[N67RA]

I've got a CAC card. Thanks

[Joe_P148]

I've got a CAC card. Thanks

O.K.

 

Then if you register for the nga's website you will be able to access all their digital FLIP and chart products.

[Spike]

Not to go to far off topic, a while ago, I did a cross-country diversion training flight with a new-hire. I basically pulled out a chart (civi sectional) and said “take me there” pointing to an airport roughly 50 miles away. While the trainee fidgeted with the chart, I turned off the GPS and told him it was out of play. The trainee, who had roughly a couple thousands of hours in helicopters, had a difficult time taking me directly to the destination and subsequently received an “unsat” for this particular lesson. Basically, the trainee’s pilotage skills were in the craper. Therefore, while cross county flying skills has essentially digressed to following the pink line, some employers still require the basics and, if you can’t demonstrate that, it may cost you your job…..

[N67RA]

Not to go to far off topic, a while ago, I did a cross-country diversion training flight with a new-hire. I basically pulled out a chart (civi sectional) and said take me there pointing to an airport roughly 50 miles away. While the trainee fidgeted with the chart, I turned off the GPS and told him it was out of play. The trainee, who had roughly a couple thousands of hours in helicopters, had a difficult time taking me directly to the destination and subsequently received an unsat for this particular lesson. Basically, the trainees pilotage skills were in the craper. Therefore, while cross county flying skills has essentially digressed to following the pink line, some employers still require the basics and, if you cant demonstrate that, it may cost you your job..

And that's exactly how it should be...

People are forgetting how to hand fly an aircraft too by constantly using the autopilot.

 

I plan on doing a 600nm flight with another pilot and I hope I can convince him to not touch that GPS until we get within the mode C veil of our destination. It'll be VFR of course.

[N67RA]

O.K.

 

Then if you register for the nga's website you will be able to access all their digital FLIP and chart products.

Thanks. It looks like it'll be an invaluable resource.

[Flying Pig]

Not to go to far off topic, a while ago, I did a cross-country diversion training flight with a new-hire. I basically pulled out a chart (civi sectional) and said take me there pointing to an airport roughly 50 miles away. While the trainee fidgeted with the chart, I turned off the GPS and told him it was out of play. The trainee, who had roughly a couple thousands of hours in helicopters, had a difficult time taking me directly to the destination and subsequently received an unsat for this particular lesson. Basically, the trainees pilotage skills were in the craper. Therefore, while cross county flying skills has essentially digressed to following the pink line, some employers still require the basics and, if you cant demonstrate that, it may cost you your job..

I've been in your helicopter. If all of your monitors go out you just need to land.

[Spike]

I've been in your helicopter. If all of your monitors go out you just need to land.

 

Giggle.... And, start fishing....

[akscott60]

And that's exactly how it should be...

People are forgetting how to hand fly an aircraft too by constantly using the autopilot.

 

I plan on doing a 600nm flight with another pilot and I hope I can convince him to not touch that GPS until we get within the mode C veil of our destination. It'll be VFR of course.

 

Do not cast stones at the way we do things in the military, especially since you are still a civilian.

[N67RA]

 

Do not cast stones at the way we do things in the military, especially since you are still a civilian.

My response was only in agreement with the CFI's decision to "unsat" the pilot's performance, nothing else was intended.

 

BTW, I joined the military in the late 90s and am still serving.

[akscott60]

Ok, then I retract the civilian part.

 

However, you are a WOFT selectee. Just enjoy the ride of flight training. I think you may be pleasantly surprised.