Recognizing Engine Failure

[slick1537]

Hey guys, I have been doing a lot of adv maneuvers as of late and autos in preparation for my stage 3 check, and my private pilot check ride. However I am a little worried that I may fail to enter auto if the examiner chops the throttle. My instructor already has the collective down before I even realize what is going on. What tips do you guys have for early recognition of a simulated engine failure. How did your examiners do the simulated engine failure with you. Did they just chop the throttle and wait for you to respond, or did they say, engine failure, and have you react?

[NorCalHeliKid]

Hey guys, I have been doing a lot of adv maneuvers as of late and autos in preparation for my stage 3 check, and my private pilot check ride. However I am a little worried that I may fail to enter auto if the examiner chops the throttle. My instructor already has the collective down before I even realize what is going on. What tips do you guys have for early recognition of a simulated engine failure. How did your examiners do the simulated engine failure with you. Did they just chop the throttle and wait for you to respond, or did they say, engine failure, and have you react?

 

Don't think it is always this way exactly, but every checkride I have had the DPE counts down from 3 and then says very clearly "engine failure" for performing autorotation's. In the case of simulated engine failure, they will wait until you are distracted and say "engine failure" with no count-down, expecting you to get the collective full down and properly enter autorotation, while picking an appropriate area for emergency landing and explaining why you have chosen that area. Hope this helps.

[Copterpilot213]

For my private checkride it was "engine failure" then wait to see how I reacted. For my commercial checkride it was "engine failure" then throttle rolled off.

 

For recognizing the engine failure I would recommend asking to do some low rotor rpm recognition, a throttle chop will be similar but at a faster rate.

 

Hope this helps!

[BOATFIXERGUY]

Exactly. Your examiner will never "chop" the throttle. They will simulate or tell you first. A throttle chop is a sure fire way to get a real engine failure. Don't worry too much about it. If you're signed off for your private, then you're ready.

 

As far aw what to look for, its the obvious.... change in engine noise, change in MP, change in rotor noise, needles, engine instruments, etc.

 

Good luck on your private.

[relyon]

Keep in mind that real emergencies don't pre-announce themselves or wait for a "convenient" time to happen. One must recognize and properly deal with each one in real time as though lives depend on it, because they often do.

 

Bob

[rick1128]

Keep in mind that real emergencies don't pre-announce themselves or wait for a "convenient" time to happen. One must recognize and properly deal with each one in real time as though lives depend on it, because they often do.

 

Bob

 

Actually I have found that MOST emergencies will pre-announce themselves. You just have to know what to look for. Started hard or hot or sounds a little off, running hot or pressure is low, etc. While we practice for it as a worst case senerio, engine failures are rare. Most pilot will have hyd or electrical problems much more commonly.

[helonorth]

Hey guys, I have been doing a lot of adv maneuvers as of late and autos in preparation for my stage 3 check, and my private pilot check ride. However I am a little worried that I may fail to enter auto if the examiner chops the throttle. My instructor already has the collective down before I even realize what is going on. What tips do you guys have for early recognition of a simulated engine failure. How did your examiners do the simulated engine failure with you. Did they just chop the throttle and wait for you to respond, or did they say, engine failure, and have you react?

You're getting ready for your check ride and your instructor is still not letting you finish the

maneuver? I guess I would be a little worried about it, too. It's the scariest thing I did as as

instructor. You should get some verbal warning. I would tell your instructor what you have

posted here. Every instructor and examiner does this a little differently.

My first instructor told me about the time he rolled the throttle off on a guy (R-22) and he RAISED

the collective. This was in cruise flight. He managed to get the RPM back, but couldn't stop

shaking for two hours.

[Goldy]

Your examiner will never "chop" the throttle. They will simulate or tell you first.

 

 

Well, actually my DPE did, just as I was turning base...so it was a 90 degree turn to final in auto and a perfect recovery 3 feet off the tarmac looking at the numbers under me....that was on my PPL ride.....so never say never.

 

Now onto the real question. How do you recognize it ? The first time a CFI announced "engine failure" I just looked at him strange. I had never had anyone do that. IF you want to see my autorotation technique then chop the throttle on me....I honestly didnt know he was trying to get me into an auto, I just looked at him funny and said " the engine is fine".

 

Here's the problem as I see it. We dance around with auto's. In the 80's, we didnt know better yet, so CFI's always chopped throttle. When you are pulling 21 inches of MP and the throttle goes away, you know it in a hurry! The yaw is intense and quick and your reaction ( which is what you are training your mind to do ) is instant down collective.

 

Nowadays, the teaching is different...entry is so smooth and "easy" into an auto, that I think you honestly don't know what the real thing feels like. There are still plenty of instructors out there that teach chops and full downs and I feel a lot better having gone thru them...full carb heat of course.

 

My opinion is fly with a longer time CFI who isnt afraid to throw a few surprises your way, and after a few of them, you will be much better prepared.

 

Goldy

[500E]

I agree with Goldy this is where higher hour Cfi has an edge he will let you get just that bit further to disaster before he takes control & you would be surprised how quick your learning rate speeds up, also if you have absorbed the lessons you just react without thinking.

when I was learning Cfi used to throw in all sorts of little problems, Like shouting Wire, do you react or fly on and hope it was false alarm? holding pedals so they would not move do you stand on yours or remember the lesson about stuck pedals & fly accordingly? Throttle chops and finding the collective would not move were another fun time he threw in, usually when the work load was high, as he said if it,s going wrong it will chose the moment when you are fully booked, so the response has to be subconscious.

I did have the pucker factor on a few occasions, but boy did I learn

[helonorth]

I think changing instructors at this point is a little drastic. He/she probably doesn't even realize

it's mostly HIM/HER, not you, that is lowering the collective. Like I said talk, to him/her about it.

If the instructor is still not letting you do the whole maneuver, you will then have to find someone

who will.

Edited March 9, 2008 by helonorth

[delorean]

I've had DPE's chop the throttle on me before......Technically, they, nor the FAA should ever [have to] touch the controls on a flight. Furthermore, they're suppose to annouce, "SIMULATED engine failure, " because if someone says just, "engine failure," you don't know if they mean it actually has quit or not.

 

I've also had an instructor close the fuel valve on me.....in flight.....twice. It was in an airplane, he distracted me, shut the fuel off, and I watched the prop stop in front of me. Both times we were just within gliding distance to a grass strip which was the whole point of the screwed up exercise--to see if I would establish best glide and head toward the airport immediately rather than trying to restart the engine. First time I freaked; second time I would have made it. Please don't hijack this thread over how dangerous this was and everything that *could* have happened. I know now....I was just a 14 y/o student then and didn't know any better to say something. Besides, the instructor has been dead for 10+ yrs.

[Goldy]

I've also had an instructor close the fuel valve on me.....in flight

 

 

Yeah, I hate it when those automatic closing fuel valves decide to snap shut in flight. No comment on the dangers, but your time was probably better spent practicing stalls.

 

My real point of my earlier post...is if we taught engine failures closer to the real thing, no student would ever post the question "I don't know if I could recognize an engine failure".....shame on CFI's for that one.

Edited March 9, 2008 by Goldy

[Goldy]

What tips do you guys have for early recognition of a simulated engine failure.

 

 

Oh yeah, when you suddenly find yourself flying sideways, you need to drop collective and add a ton of pedal. I'm sure you'll do fine on the test, but then I would get out with a different CFI and do some more advanced autos....the Robbie school is good for that. Good luck,

 

Goldy

[relyon]

... MOST emergencies will pre-announce themselves. You just have to know what to look for. ...

My experience has been the opposite.

 

• An alternator diode that failed did not pre-announce itself.
  

• An alternator belt that failed didn't pre-announce itself.
  

• A plastic mechanic's flashlight left in an inaccessible part of the tail rotor driveline did not pre-announce itself.
  

• A misadjusted carburetor linkage did not pre-annouce itself.
  

• Numerous migratory birds that put themselves in the flight path of offshore helicopters didn't pre-announce themselves.
  

• A main pitch link rod end that failed did not pre-announce itself.
  

Among others I've not listed here, I have personal experience with all but the last and first person knowledge of that. Not all failures are engine failures nor are they capable of being detected before hand. If the are capable of being detected before becoming an issue, perhaps the aircraft needs to be grounded until maintenance is performed.

 

Bob

[BOATFIXERGUY]

Well, actually my DPE did, just as I was turning base...

 

There are still plenty of instructors out there that teach chops and full downs and I feel a lot better having gone thru them...full carb heat of course.

 

Goldy

 

Ya, me too...that was the old days before any of us knew any better. CHOPPING the throttle in a piston helicopter is a sure fire way to conduct a REAL auto. Back in 98 I had a high time (3,000 hr) CFI "chop" the throttle in an enstrom on final with a student. Guess what happened? Engine stopped running.

 

The FAA strongly discourages "chopping" the thottle. And your insurance company will forbid it. Read your policy. In a piston, you've got to roll it off smoothy, or you will kill the engine. If it hasn't happened yet, you're playing with a loaded gun....and all guns are always loaded - always.

[Fastlane]

I'm probably gonna be way off line here, mainly because I'm not that far along in training. Haven't even done any autos yet, just so you know where I'm coming from.

 

There exists a form of Black Magic known as "getting a feel for the machine." My drag racing, high performance engine building experience is taking over from this point. When I'm at the race track, and reach down and grab a handful of gear shift, I literally become ONE with that 10 second machine I've built. I know (with the help of the gauges) EVERYTHING that's going on with that engine. My life depends on it. Throwing oil in front of the slicks at 120+ MPH is never a good thing. So if I "feel" somethings amiss.....

 

So I translate this into my flight training. When I fire up "my" 300CBi, I can literally hear each spark plug firing. I KNOW if she sounds "right", or if she's just cold, or if somethings WRONG. ONE with the machine.

 

I'm gonna throw the red flag on engine failures "surprising" you. Sure, catastrophic engine failure does happen. But 90 times out of 100, she'll tell you what's about to happen. Please correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm all about LEARNING at this stage of my "career."

 

 

Could this be an instructor issue instead of a mechanical issue? Maybe I'm overly-mechanical, but jeez guys even with my LOW amount of training, I can tell you if somethings wrong, or even not quite right, with the bird just by how she feels/sounds/looks/reacts.

Edited March 10, 2008 by Fastlane

[relyon]

While you're not way off line here, I believe you're giving yourself way too much credit for what you think is possible to know and or do ahead of time.

 

... I literally become ONE with that 10 second machine I've built. I know (with the help of the gauges) EVERYTHING that's going on with that engine. My life depends on it. Throwing oil in front of the slicks at 120+ MPH is never a good thing. So if I "feel" somethings amiss.....

How do you "feel" an electronic component or mechanical component is going to fail? Or when a door latch is going to fail and a less than secured item is going to fly into your tail rotor? Or a 16 pound Pelican is going to impact your left front window at 100+ knots? Or ...? While I completely understand the point I believe you are trying to make, you can't possibly know in advance everything that may effect the outcome of a given flight. If you truely can, I think you should be in the business of selling said black magic, or at least crystal balls.

 

Bob

[HeloJunkie]

Well, actually my DPE did, just as I was turning base...so it was a 90 degree turn to final in auto and a perfect recovery 3 feet off the tarmac looking at the numbers under me....that was on my PPL ride.....so never say never.

 

Now onto the real question. How do you recognize it ? The first time a CFI announced "engine failure" I just looked at him strange. I had never had anyone do that. IF you want to see my autorotation technique then chop the throttle on me....I honestly didnt know he was trying to get me into an auto, I just looked at him funny and said " the engine is fine".

 

Here's the problem as I see it. We dance around with auto's. In the 80's, we didnt know better yet, so CFI's always chopped throttle. When you are pulling 21 inches of MP and the throttle goes away, you know it in a hurry! The yaw is intense and quick and your reaction ( which is what you are training your mind to do ) is instant down collective.

 

Nowadays, the teaching is different...entry is so smooth and "easy" into an auto, that I think you honestly don't know what the real thing feels like. There are still plenty of instructors out there that teach chops and full downs and I feel a lot better having gone thru them...full carb heat of course.

 

My opinion is fly with a longer time CFI who isnt afraid to throw a few surprises your way, and after a few of them, you will be much better prepared.

 

Goldy

 

Great info Goldy -

 

I was just doing autos in my R44 yesterday with a 25,000 hour pilot/instructor and he chopped the throttle every time. The first couple he asked if I was ready, but the actual "failure" was a result of the throttle hitting the stops. After the first couple, there was no warning - just a throttle chop. We did not do "full down", but recovered about 6" to 1', but he warned me that the full downs were coming as soon as I was more comfortable with the autos.

 

Frankly, I am not sure that anything but the "real thing" will tell us if we are ready. Every time he chopped the throttle yesterday, I felt the throttle movement just as he did it, so I think I had a bit o an edge n the outcome. I can only hope that I will be ready the day it actually happens to me and think clearly and calmly.

[C of G]

I think most pilots in training recognize a simulated engine failure by the throttle rotating uncommanded in their hand. In reality, it can be recognized by the sudden nose yaw. It is unfortunate if your instructor doesn't trust the machine, you or himself enough to let you deal with the maneuver. As for other failures announcing themselves, some do, some don't. Some escalate into bigger problems if allowed.

 

 

Relyon,

 

What is the story with the failed pitch link? I know of one failing in flight IMC in a 412 resulting in a totaled helicopter and two living pilots because they kept trying to fly the helicopter. I'd like to hear more about yours, if you can. Thanks.

Edited March 10, 2008 by C of G

[relyon]

What is the story with the failed pitch link? I know of one failing in flight IMC in a 412 resulting in a totaled helicopter and two living pilots because they kept trying to fly the helicopter. I'd like to hear more about yours, if you can. Thanks.

Pretty much the same thing but in a VFR Bell 206. My understanding was that the link failed at the swashplate end and the pilot started a slow low power descent from 750', but didn't stop flying until on the surface. I hope hearing the story is as close as I ever come to something like that.

 

Bob

[choppedair]

Well I didn't read through all of these, but I've never had an examiner chop the throttle. They were always announced as "simulated engine failure."

However, my commercial instructor chopped me so much he must have that it was a game, haha.

I teach engine failures as announced initially. First a few times of "engine failure" with a quick roll off. After a few good reactions, I tell them I will soon chop the throttle. After that, it's fair game. However I almost always chop the throttle under 21" of MP (r22). Over that I will announce.

I think that an instructor who always announces it and wants it smooth every time is doing you a disservice.

 

 

If your instructor (or the examiner) chops the throttle, you will KNOW it. There should be plenty of indication, not to mention that you will FEEL the throttle roll off in your hand.

[betr_thn_Icarus]

My Private checkride DPE "chopped" the throttle on me in a Bell 47. I entered the auto instinctively as the hair on my neck stood up after the sudden torque. I set it up for a spot and told him where and why right after making sure the engine was running still. He cancelled it way before we got near the ground and said it was a good reaction. It was the very first time someone had actually chopped the throttle on me and it surely suprised me. We had entered a few auto's before this so I think he was making sure the machine idled well in them first. I was a little suspicious when he asked me to gain a lot of altitude...I was just thinking he was going to ask me to demonstrate settling with power though. I left glad to have experienced it but also suprised we hadn't done it a little more realistic in training. I think stuck peddle should have been focused on more as well.

 

I'm guessing that most times they wouldn't do this.

 

I'm told that recip. piston engines give up with a slow power failure that is less drastic than a turbine and that turbines can have a near sudden loss. I can agree from the car world that piston engine failures are like this from ones I have experienced racing. It also makes sense that a turbine...spinning at that speed...could suddenly destruct a little easier.

[Goldy]

I was just doing autos in my R44 yesterday with a 25,000 hour pilot/instructor and he chopped the throttle every time.

 

 

OK Helo- I'm officially jealous. I love autos in the 44....did you do some at 90/90? Its good stuff if you need to stretch a bit to hit your mark. Plus you are always flying at least 100 knots so you always have some extra energy as you pull aft cyclic. I do have a harder time getting close to the ground with the 44, I think I am extra concerned about a tail strike so I level off a little too quick and end up 6 feet off the ground, instead of the 2 feet I am used to in a 22. oh well, what issues to have ! Nothing a couple hundred more hours in a 44 won't fix !

 

Let's redefine "throttle chop". A quick, unannounced roll off of the throttle resulting in excessive yaw and requiring an immediate entry into autorotation.

 

With sufficient altitude, airspeed, carb heat and a safe landing zone....I think its a manuever well worth practicing.

 

Good thread by the way, anything that generates lively discussion of emergency procedures is a good thing!

 

Fly safe, Goldy

[NorCalHeliKid]

I came back to this thread today and it sounds like everyone is encouraging throttle chopping? I don't know if we are all talking about the same thing but if you really give the throttle a good chop in the R-22 I think you should be putting the collective down before or simultaneously... there is a reason that SFAR junk was made. Low-Inertia rotor system, carbureted engine. I just dont think that the risk outweighs the benefits. Ive read the NTSB reports...

[HeloJunkie]

OK Helo- I'm officially jealous. I love autos in the 44....did you do some at 90/90? Its good stuff if you need to stretch a bit to hit your mark. Plus you are always flying at least 100 knots so you always have some extra energy as you pull aft cyclic. I do have a harder time getting close to the ground with the 44, I think I am extra concerned about a tail strike so I level off a little too quick and end up 6 feet off the ground, instead of the 2 feet I am used to in a 22. oh well, what issues to have ! Nothing a couple hundred more hours in a 44 won't fix !

 

Let's redefine "throttle chop". A quick, unannounced roll off of the throttle resulting in excessive yaw and requiring an immediate entry into autorotation.

 

With sufficient altitude, airspeed, carb heat and a safe landing zone....I think its a manuever well worth practicing.

 

Good thread by the way, anything that generates lively discussion of emergency procedures is a good thing!

 

Fly safe, Goldy

 

 

:-)

 

Hey Goldy -

 

Wasn't it you that said you could drink a cup of coffee during an R44 auto ? :-)

 

 

Not sure what 90/90 is (90 KIAS, 90 AGL...?) The most impressive was the HV Diagram examples in real life. Basically learned that the weight makes a huge difference. The Zero Airspeed, 800' AGL had my heart rate up the first couple of times! With two medium weight guys (I am 180 and my instructor is a bit less) and full fuel, the 44 has tons of power!

 

I am looking forward to more Autos as soon as I get my alternator fixed (failed at 33 hours) :-(