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Bell 505 Jet Ranger X


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#21 Jaybee

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 10:18

This might be a little archaic in this day and age but when I flew the Bell 47 solo I had to take the 50 lb ballast out of the fake battery box half way back the tailboom and put in in the chin bubble. Conversely when I was flying with someone I had to move the ballast back to the tailboom.

 

I know, a pilot doing work ! crazy talk !!!  :blink:   :P   ;)


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"The foot rests have a profound impact on the outcome of today's flight ending safely" - My flight instructor.

#22 Nearly Retired

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 11:21

Right you are, Wally.  And unlike the Astar, on the 505 there is no baggage compartment aft of the mast.  Dumb!

 

Jaybee, many of us who flew 47's never bothered shifting the weight around- we just accepted the change in c.g.  Here's why: With the seats located so close to the mast, there really isn't *that* much c.g. shift between solo and fully loaded.  Yeah, when you were solo it hovered tail-low, but I prefer that to hovering nose-low, which it would do if you had the empty weight c.g. set primarily for solo flight and then stuck three fatties in the thing. 

 

Nothing is ever perfect, of course.  At PHI, a skinny LongRanger pilot was "supposed" to carry ballast with him for solo flights.  And we often saw new pilots walking around with lead weights in little canvas bags.  I didn't bother - at least, back when I was a skinny, 150-pound pilot (which didn't last long).  We didn't often fly empty.  And yeah, there were some flights when I had the cyclic just about all the way forward in cruise, especially at the most-aft fuel c.g. (the fuel c.g. shifts back and forth as it burns off in a LongRanger).  At least I knew I wouldn't have a problem flaring at the bottom of an auto ;)

 

I don't know why Bell is complaining about the horrible expense involved in building a 206 fuselage.  Isn't that tooling amortized about a million times over?  And isn't it mostly composite?  Just take a 407 cabin and remove the 25 inch plug they put in to the B-model fuselage to make the original L-model.  Voila!  Instant 505.  I mean, the drivetrain and tailboom is the same, so what's the big deal?

 

I'm not sure why Bell felt they had to reinvent the 5-place single, when they had a perfect one already, right there on the shelf.  Ohhhhhh, that's right, somebody (probably the inept CEO) must have mandated, "Get rid of the goddamn broom closet!"

 

And why they're using the French engine is a puzzle.  Why not just use a C-30 with the L-4 trans?  Would that have been *too* expensive to engineer into the B-model fuselage?  Wait- isn't that basically what we have with the OH-58D? 

 

I'm really confused by this 505.  I wonder if it'll actually even go into production without some major changes.  On the other hand, I hope they sell a ton of 'em and prove me wrong.



#23 Jaybee

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 11:34

Been a while but I'm pretty sure that with the battery located basically under the mast next to the engine on Roger's 47 that I had to move ballast or I would be out of CG. Never needed to ballast any other 47s I flew.

 

As far as the tube frame, at least from a repairman's perspective, composites require lots of time and specialized equipment to repair. Vacuum pumps, warp clocks, heat pads, etc, etc. If the body work on this gets damaged its looks to be a simple R & R or patch job (disclaimer - best guess only from crappy internet pictures) If it gets hit hard enough to be bending breaking tubing, well you probably got a lot bigger problems like blades, dead bodies, etc, etc.

 

JMHO of course :D


"In flying I have learned that carelessness and overconfidence are usually far more dangerous than deliberately accepted risks." — Wilbur Wright in a letter to his father, September 1900. 
 
"The foot rests have a profound impact on the outcome of today's flight ending safely" - My flight instructor.

#24 palmfish

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 23:51

Wow, an awful lot of bashing of a helicopter nobody has any real specs on and nobody has flown yet.

Fuel cap on the wrong side? Really? :-P
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#25 adam32

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 09:58

Wow, an awful lot of bashing of a helicopter nobody has any real specs on and nobody has flown yet.

Fuel cap on the wrong side? Really? :-P

 

 

For hot fueling it's nice to see the fueler...

 

And just look at it and the 525, can't Bell come up with something at least halfway decent? A cheapened up 206 with a stupid Eurotrash style fuselage and a rebranded 214ST...

 

As it is, Bell won't produce the 505, at least not in Heli-Expo form.



#26 Nearly Retired

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 10:06

Palmfish:

Fuel cap on the wrong side? Really? :-P         

 

Yeah, really.  Have you flown much where you've done a lot of hot refueling?  I have.  A "little thing" like having the fuel cap on the copilot side just complicates matters needlessly.  Now, after getting a load of hot fuel, how is the pilot supposed to check that the fueler put the cap back on properly?  And don't anybody give me grief about how "unsafe" hot refueling is.  It is a fact of life in certain helicopter ops, get over it.

 

The fuel cap location was fine where it was; why change it?  That's one puzzle.

 

And no, not a lot of "bashing" of the new design.  Just objective criticism based on experience.  See, if the 505 were the very *first* five-seat turbine helicopter to ever be invented, I'd probably be ooh-ing and ahh-ing over it just like so many of the Bell acolytes are.

 

But it's not the first of its type.  In fact, we have plenty of other yardsticks we can use to measure the 505.  Bell's own beloved 206, for one...and the R-66 for another. 

 

And yes it's true, not a lot of specs from Bell just yet.  Just three shiny models that look for all intensive purposes like real helicopters.  And if they are...how come no projected weights?  What's the empty weight of the thing going to be, huh?  What's the max gross?  They tell us that the useful load will be "1500+ pounds" but I'm skeptical of that.  Then again, if you took a really, really light, 1700 pound 206B, you could say it has a useful load of 1650 pounds (3350 - 1700).  But there aren't any 1700 pound B-models out there anymore...at least, none with radios and seats and paint.

 

They say that the max speed will be "125+ knots" which is fine, but the 206 has a max speed of 130 knots.  "Max Speed" is not cruise speed, after all.

 

So Bell, what's new?  A steel-tube fuselage design "borrowed" from the Bell 47 and some "space-age" aluminum sheet metal materials for the cabin?  Come on, can't we do better than that?

 

I see that Adam32 has also responded to this thread as I was typing this post.  And I'm inclined to agree with him: I'm beginning to doubt that Bell will actually produce the 505 in its current form.  They'll probably "rethink" their position and come to their senses.  Because I think they're going to need more than 100 orders to start up production.



#27 palmfish

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 15:33

Palmfish:
 
Yeah, really.  Have you flown much where you've done a lot of hot refueling?  I have.  A "little thing" like having the fuel cap on the copilot side just complicates matters needlessly.  Now, after getting a load of hot fuel, how is the pilot supposed to check that the fueler put the cap back on properly?


No, we didnt do any hot refueling in the Army. Too dangerous... ;)

#28 aeroscout

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 16:28

 

 

For hot fueling it's nice to see the fueler...

 

And just look at it and the 525, can't Bell come up with something at least halfway decent? A cheapened up 206 with a stupid Eurotrash style fuselage and a rebranded 214ST...

 

As it is, Bell won't produce the 505, at least not in Heli-Expo form.

Any hot fueling I get, I do myself. 


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#29 Pohi

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 20:29

Haha, I remember the first time I saw somebody hot fuel themselves. I was amazed.

#30 adam32

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 22:44

I've seen a guy fly with a dog then hot fuel himself and leave the dog at the controls...lol
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#31 aeroscout

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 22:50

I've seen a guy fly with a dog then hot fuel himself and leave the dog at the controls...lol

Did you take a pic ? Post it if you did. That would be funny to see.



#32 adam32

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 22:50

If Bell was serious about bringing a new machine to the market, at least in the medium twin range like the 525, they should commercialize the Y model Huey...and if they wanted to make a great lift machine to blow the K-Max outta the water and a bit better then a 61 or 107 then take the Y model rotables and put them on a lightened Cobra...yeah buddy!!!

#33 palmfish

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 23:30

If Bell was serious about bringing a new machine to the market, at least in the medium twin range like the 525, they should commercialize the Y model Huey...and if they wanted to make a great lift machine to blow the K-Max outta the water and a bit better then a 61 or 107 then take the Y model rotables and put them on a lightened Cobra...yeah buddy!!!


The Cobra is a terrible idea. Not only cant you see the fuel cap from either pilot station; you cant hot fuel yourself either. :-P
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#34 aeroscout

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 23:53

If Bell was serious about bringing a new machine to the market, at least in the medium twin range like the 525, they should commercialize the Y model Huey...and if they wanted to make a great lift machine to blow the K-Max outta the water and a bit better then a 61 or 107 then take the Y model rotables and put them on a lightened Cobra...yeah buddy!!!

The idea of counterrotating rotors is hard to beat when coming up with a high lift ratio. Almost all of the engine's output goes into lifting.



#35 Nearly Retired

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 08:23

Palmfish:

No, we didnt do any hot refueling in the Army. Too dangerous... ;)

 

 

Beg to differ.  Hot refueling is *not* dangerous, as so many seem to believe.  It is risky, yes, but if those risks are managed appropriately there is nothing more "dangerous" about hot refueling a turbine than cold refueling.

 

Whenever opponents of hot refueling are asked for statistics that show it is a "dangerous" operation, they can never point to more than one or two incidents that occurred within the last twenty years.  And when you look deeper into those incidents you usually find incredible stupidity among the participants.  That's hardly an indictment of hot refueling.

 

There is nothing "unsafe" or "dangerous" about hot refueling.  For Bell to put the fuel cap on the "wrong" side of the 505 is just dumb.  Bell may know a lot about building helicopters, but the location of the fuel filler tells me that the design team of the 505 was fairly clueless about how  helicopters are operated out in the real world.  Sad, really, because it makes me wonder what *other* things they got wrong.



#36 adam32

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 10:18

Did you take a pic ? Post it if you did. That would be funny to see.

 

I may have, I'll look. The same machine had an engine failure the next day, he landed between a row of trees and a building. Didn't hurt anything except the Lycon built engine that threw a rod.



#37 adam32

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 10:23

The idea of counterrotating rotors is hard to beat when coming up with a high lift ratio. Almost all of the engine's output goes into lifting.

 

That's very true, the K-Max is just sooooooooo slow!! The Shithooks are pretty darn quick tho <_<



#38 Mikemv

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 12:51

More info here:

 

http://www.bell505.com/



#39 palmfish

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 19:24

Palmfish:

 

 

Beg to differ.  Hot refueling is *not* dangerous, as so many seem to believe.  It is risky, yes, but if those risks are managed appropriately there is nothing more "dangerous" about hot refueling a turbine than cold refueling.

 

Uh, NR, the winky face means I was being facetious...lol

 

 

the location of the fuel filler tells me that the design team of the 505 was fairly clueless about how  helicopters are operated out in the real world.  Sad, really, because it makes me wonder what *other* things they got wrong.

 

You mean like those clueless Hughes designers did with the 500? Now there's a helicopter that nobody will buy... ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)



#40 aeroscout

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 20:01

Quote...

"There is nothing "unsafe" or "dangerous" about hot refueling.  For Bell to put the fuel cap on the "wrong" side of the 505 is just dumb.  Bell may know a lot about building helicopters, but the location of the fuel filler tells me that the design team of the 505 was fairly clueless about how  helicopters are operated out in the real world.  Sad, really, because it makes me wonder what *other* things they got wrong."

 

 

 

If you go to self serve, and hot refuel yourself, it really won't matter what side the fuel port is on.

Maybe we could get them to install a fuel cap without a fuel port on the pilot side, just to keep them happy.

I am just as much concerned about double checking that the fuel cap is secure on the fuel port after fueling, so I always do. 

 

 

edit +quote


Edited by aeroscout, 06 March 2014 - 20:02.





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