R44 PIC and Commercial Operator Questions

[01CelicaGTS]

So, my sister-in-law is getting married sometime in the future (she just got engaged), and they asked me if I could fly them into the wedding site. I have a little over 200 hours, I have my Commercial Certificate, and she said that they have had helicopters fly in there before. I will have flown a lot more hours by the time they get married, but I don't have any R44 time. So, I was gonna get some R44 time (maybe through heliquest). I think I read the SFAR73 correctly, but I just wanna make sure.

 

I can be PIC of an R44 if I get 25 hours in the R44 (cuz I can use 25 in the R22 toward the 50 hour minimum) since I have over 200 hours in the R22.

 

OR

 

I could get 5 hours dual instruction, get an endorsement, and make sure I have an annual flight review.

 

So, assuming that's correct, let's get into the commercial pilot portion. They want to pay for the rental of the Helicopter, but I would not recieve any compensation for helping them (hell, I might even pay for the rental as a wedding gift). So this flight would not be for compensation or hire. I am unsure of how I would go about doing this. If I was just flying them around, I know it would be perfectly legal. However, I am dropping them off at a point other than the point of departure, and would not be carrying any cargo. I know I would need to talk to the local FSDO, and probably get an LOA, and maybe talk with the local law enforcement about landing in that area. Any input here would be appreciated. Thanks

[AStarB3]

You can receive a PIC endorsement for the R44 with 5 hours of dual with Robby rated instructor. The 25/50 hour requirement only applies to instructors. For the flight to be legal you will have to pay at least your pro rata share because you are not 135. If it was me I would pay for the flight as a wedding present because then the whole operation is under private pilot privileges and there is no question who is operating the flight.

 

The landing are is another story. I don't know where the wedding is being held but the city I live in has an ordinance against landing aircraft off airport. Also in some counties it is illegal to land within certain distances of a school. If none of these issues apply to you and the wedding is being held on private property all you need is the permission of the owner.

 

The only other issue I can see is that most insurance companies require 500 hours for you to be able to act as PIC and carry passengers in the R44. You should be very specific about your intentions with the helicopter when you rent it.

 

I wish I had the opportunity to do something like this (seeing that I am in the same position you are) and wish you the best of luck.

[MileHi480B]

You're way over-thinking it as far as the LOA? Why would you need that? I have often dropped friends off places. And unless you're violating any airspace regs ... for an occasional landing all you need is the property owner's permission (local law enforcement does not regulate federally registered aircraft. Of course, you'd have to maintain safe distance from assemblies of people and structures -- in other words you can't endaner those on the ground.

 

And who requires 50 hours to be a PIC in an R44? Is that the rental place? Cause I don't know of any reg that requires that.

Edited September 24, 2010 by MileHiR44

[Shaun]

As I understand it you cannot transport people from point to point without a 135.

 

You could if you share a common purpose but your story seems to lean away from that.

 

Flight time and good will are also considered compensation.

[Miloe]

What about asking the local fsdo for permission to do 1 of your yearly 6 'fake' 135 flights as a commercial pilot?

[rick1128]

First of all, forget talking to the FSDO. All they will do is cover their butts. The cost share has to do more with Private Pilots. They have to rent the aircraft, not you. If you did, then you would be in the area of 135. It has to do with operational control. If you have it, then it could be 135, if they have it then it is Part 91. Operational control has nothing to do with the PIC's final authority.

 

As for landing at the site. First talk to the landowner and get their permission. In writing is best. Then talk with the local law enforcement agency to see if they have any requirements or regulations. Make the arrangements as far in advance as you can. And scout the proposed landing are for any helicopter traps. And finally, organize a small group to help with crowd control at the landing area.

 

Good Luck.

[TimW68]

The rental insurance agreement may also have some language about non-CFI off airport landings.

[Spike]

First of all, forget talking to the FSDO. All they will do is cover their butts. The cost share has to do more with Private Pilots. They have to rent the aircraft, not you. If you did, then you would be in the area of 135. It has to do with operational control. If you have it, then it could be 135, if they have it then it is Part 91. Operational control has nothing to do with the PIC's final authority.

 

As for landing at the site. First talk to the landowner and get their permission. In writing is best. Then talk with the local law enforcement agency to see if they have any requirements or regulations. Make the arrangements as far in advance as you can. And scout the proposed landing are for any helicopter traps. And finally, organize a small group to help with crowd control at the landing area.

 

Good Luck.

 

MY interpretations of the regs are as follows;

 

Compensation has many definitions. If the wedding party rents the helicopter, the pilot is being compensated by the flight time he logs in his logbook, hence not cool.

 

First of all this is a private pilot operation. However, in order for this to be completely legit, the pilot needs to foot the whole bill.

 

As a private pilot, sharing costs is legal, but the flight must be originated by the private pilot. In other words, he needs to be already going to a particular destination. Asking a private pilot to fly someone somewhere and share the cost is not legal. If a private pilot chooses to fly to boogers airport for dinner and wants to bring a friend along to share the cost, then its completely legit.

 

Therefore, the pilot needs to foot the entire rental fee thus negating any possibilities of accusations of flying for compensation. Being that he is not sharing any costs, where and when he flies is moot.

Edited September 24, 2010 by Spike

[HeloJunkie]

There is some great information from some well meaning people but I would be very careful about taking it to heart and acting on it without further investigation or research. Based on a conversation I had with AOPA's legal help line about this very issue, several of the comments about what is and what is not legal per 14 CFR are absolutely wrong so beware.

 

If this is something you want to do, I would suggest giving the AOPA a call. They have a legal help line that can work with you on this issue if you are a member. If not, I think its worth the cost of one years membership and the very inexpensive legal services plan to have an attorney well versed in aviation law help you get the correct answer before you put your certificate in jeopardy.

 

I am all in favor of asking for advice and there are some fantastic folks on this forum, but in the end I don't think I would take a chance that a well meaning pilot interpreted the regulations correctly. In the end, its your certificate and your call.

 

And just like everything else in life, this is just MY opinion and $.02

 

:-)

[r22butters]

This is your sister-in-law, and you want to give her and her new husband a ride (not for compensation or hire).

 

How is this any different from when I take relatives, friends, or dates up with me? I'm renting the helicopter for a "joy ride", and just taking them along. Its not Commercial flying, its Private.

 

I seriously doubt any operator would rent a helicopter to people who are going to bring their own pilot.

 

If I wanted to do what you want to do, I would go to a flight school and get checked out in their R44 (they probably won't let you rent it otherwise), and then just rent it myself for the wedding.

 

The only thing I would have to do with my current rental company to drop off friends "off-airport", would be to have one of their Cfi's approve the LZ.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but these are friends, not clients, therefore this does not fall under Commercial Regs (even if you are dropping them off somewhere)?

Edited September 24, 2010 by r22butters

[Shaun]

 

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but these are friends, not clients, therefore this does not fall under Commercial Regs

 

Commercial flights are for compensation or hire it does not matter who does the hiring.

 

You cannot transport people from place to place unless...

 

You're a 135

 

It's for a common purpose

 

The pilot and the aircraft come from separate places and the pilot did not hold out

 

Corporate flight

 

 

HeloJunkie would you tell us about your case and what the FAA said, what comments are wrong?

[r22butters]

Commercial flights are for compensation or hire it does not matter who does the hiring.

 

You cannot transport people from place to place unless...

 

You're a 135

 

It's for a common purpose

 

The pilot and the aircraft come from separate places and the pilot did not hold out

 

Corporate flight

 

 

HeloJunkie would you tell us about your case and what the FAA said, what comments are wrong?

 

He said he was willing to pay for the rental, so I figured it wasn't "for commpensation or hire"?

 

Are you saying that a Private Pilot cannot pick up a friend at one place, and drop him off at another?

[Shaun]

He said he was willing to pay for the rental, so I figured it wasn't "for commpensation or hire"?

 

Are you saying that a Private Pilot cannot pick up a friend at one place, and drop him off at another?

 

Flight time and good will are considered compensation, not that this is the case here, but I was responding to your comment about friends not falling under commercial regulations.

 

You can not transport people from place to place as a private pilot unless you share a common purpose. Ie. both going to the same meeting in the same building on the same floor in the same room.

[Spike]

 

You can not transport people from place to place as a private pilot unless you share a common purpose. Ie. both going to the same meeting in the same building on the same floor in the same room.

 

This is the case IF the parties involved are sharing the cost i.e. money exchanging hands (FAR61.113 c).

 

As a private pilot, I'm free to travel wherever and with whomever I choose as long as no compensation is occuring.

 

As an example I offer this scenario; I'm a 2000 hour private pilot and own a Jetranger. A rich friend asks me to take him to his 14000 acre ranch in the boonies. No money is exchanged but he does offer me a 6 pack. Can I do it? If you think not, please provide the FAR section that says so.

Edited September 24, 2010 by Spike

[sactown77]

Geez, the FAA has really got you all scared @#*%less. Just use your best judgement and enjoy the flight. I really see no problem with this scenario.

[Goldy]

No money is exchanged but he does offer me a 6 pack. Can I do it?

 

Depends solely on the value of the beer you are drinking!

 

To the poster that said local enforcement does not regulate aircraft....try landing in the City of Los Angeles some time without a city permit. You can fly in FAA airspace but where you land is regulated by some authority, and many times requires a police or fire permit.

 

At the very least you should have notified them so when they all show up with lights and sirens blaring you have something to say.

 

As far as renting an R44, I wouldn't fly my worst enemy in a 44 until I had about 25 hours in it and was checked out. Many people, including myself, needed more than 5 hours to feel comfy and to land safely in a 44. So I would think first about safely flying, then see if you can get the insurance or CP to approve it, then check the regs to insure you are going about it the right way, then get approvals to do it. Have someone on the ground responsible for clearing and maintaing a safe LZ and be in radio contact with that person. As PIC you are responsible for the safety of your passengers and everybody on the ground, and for bringing the ship back without a dent.

 

Hint- If there is no easy way to ck wind direction, have your guy on the ground put up a flag nearby.

 

Goldy

[01CelicaGTS]

Wow, thanks a lot for all of the input. I think that talking to the guys at AOPA sounds like a great idea, since they are the ones that help the pilots, not the one's that are looking for pilot's breaking rules.

 

Goldy - Thanks for the input on the R44. I think I would be more comfortable if I had 25 hours in it anyway, but was just seeing if it is possible to fly with only 5.

 

This is still awhile away, but I'm hoping to get as much info from as many people as I can in advance. I wanted to fly in to my own wedding, but that wouldn't quite work, so I think it's really cool that my sister-in-law want me to fly them to theirs.

 

Now to be a little more clear and have more discussion, let me give some specific details.

 

My sister-in-law asked me to fly them from the airport to the wedding site. They will not pay me for it, I am doing it and as a wedding present and expect nothing in return. I will rent a helicopter from a local school (after getting a checkout and off airport landing approval of course), and fly them from the airport to the wedding site. The local law enforcement gave me a landing permit and said that it was ok for me to land there, and the property owner also said that it was ok. I'm not being compensated monetarily. Also, I do not need flight hours for any reason (I'm not working toward a certificate), and I don't expect anything from it (like getting another job doing it, or anything like that). Is this legal?

 

What about if I fly them to the site, park the helicopter, attend the wedding, and then fly them away, back to the airport. That way we are flying to the same place, for the same purpose.

[adam32]

 

 

What about if I fly them to the site, park the helicopter, attend the wedding, and then fly them away, back to the airport. That way we are flying to the same place, for the same purpose.

 

Nothing wrong with that at all...

[palmfish]

Rather than investing the time, effort, and expense of obtaining 5 hours dual in the 44 so you can do this - and avoiding Part 135, why don't you just charter a 44 and CFI to fly them and you to and from the wedding.

 

The betrothed enjoy a helicopter ride in the cozy back seat, and you log dual up front.

[JDHelicopterPilot]

Rather than investing the time, effort, and expense of obtaining 5 hours dual in the 44 so you can do this - and avoiding Part 135, why don't you just charter a 44 and CFI to fly them and you to and from the wedding.

 

The betrothed enjoy a helicopter ride in the cozy back seat, and you log dual up front.

 

 

Because that is not as much fun as doing the actual flying. Even more so when you know the Bride and Groom. From the planning he has already done he is good to go. Just be sure to know what the winds are at all times. All he needs is the check out and to be sure he is comfortable in the aircraft.

 

JD

[01CelicaGTS]

Rather than investing the time, effort, and expense of obtaining 5 hours dual in the 44 so you can do this - and avoiding Part 135, why don't you just charter a 44 and CFI to fly them and you to and from the wedding.

 

The betrothed enjoy a helicopter ride in the cozy back seat, and you log dual up front.

 

Yeah, I would love to get some R44 time anyway. And at the rates that heliquest offers, it's as cheap as R22 time too. Although, that may be a better option if i'm tight on money. But I've got time, as they are planning a long engagement. Thanks for the idea, it gives me another option if things don't work out the way I planned them.

[rick1128]

Guys, I think you missed a couple of things. First he holds a commercial so he can flight for compensation or hire. Next as for 135, it depends on who has operational control. If the school says you can rent it but have to use one of our pilots, then it is 135. But if they say you can rent it, but the pilot must meet our insurance requirements and you have to pay the pilot yourself, then it is not. I have been doing 135 for over 35 years so I do know what the regs say. This is done almost every day with no FAA issues.

 

He will however have to meet SFAR 73. And for doing this flight, he really would need some time with the machine close to max weight.

 

As for the off airport landing, it depends on the locality. That's why he would really need to start talking to the right people well in advance of the event.

[Spike]

Guys, I think you missed a couple of things. First he holds a commercial so he can flight for compensation or hire. Next as for 135, it depends on who has operational control. If the school says you can rent it but have to use one of our pilots, then it is 135. But if they say you can rent it, but the pilot must meet our insurance requirements and you have to pay the pilot yourself, then it is not. I have been doing 135 for over 35 years so I do know what the regs say. This is done almost every day with no FAA issues.

 

He will however have to meet SFAR 73. And for doing this flight, he really would need some time with the machine close to max weight.

 

As for the off airport landing, it depends on the locality. That's why he would really need to start talking to the right people well in advance of the event.

 

 

He may hold a commercial pilot certificate but his intent is not to receive compensation. Therefore, his level of certificate is not relevant. A commercial pilot can exercise his private pilot privileges anytime he chooses to do so. To this point, he has not said anything which indicates he is seeking and/or trying to receive any type of compensation. In fact, he has stated the opposite numerous times.

 

The question is; what is the purpose of the flight? IMO, he is simply renting a helicopter for which he is licensed to fly, and give his family members a ride. This type of thing is done legally everyday in this country. Otherwise, obtaining a Private Pilot certification would be pointless.

 

He also said, he has spoken with everyone involved and reveived permission for the landings..

Edited September 27, 2010 by Spike

[r22butters]

He may hold a commercial pilot certificate but his intent is not to receive compensation. Therefore, his level of certificate is not relevant. A commercial pilot can exercise his private pilot privileges anytime he chooses to do so. To this point, he has not said anything which indicates he is seeking and/or trying to receive any type of compensation. In fact, he has stated the opposite numerous times.

 

The question is; what is the purpose of the flight? IMO, he is simply renting a helicopter for which he is licensed to fly, and give his family members a ride. This type of thing is done legally everyday in this country. Otherwise, obtaining a Private Pilot certification would be pointless.

 

He also said, he has spoken with everyone involved and reveived permission for the landings..

 

That's exactly what I was thinking.

 

He said that he was willing to pay for the rental, so there's no compensation (flight time is not compensation if you're paying for it).

 

He's not soliciting for their business (nor are they seeking his advertised service), so its not "for hire".

 

He should be able to just go rent the R44 (after a check out flight of course), and take his friends to their wedding!

 

There's nothing "commercial" about it.

[Trans Lift]

I agree butters. No need to turn mole-hills into mountains!