Exceeding Max Gross Weight

[DontCallMeShirley]

So as a student you are getting ready to make a long dual cross country flight in a R22. You do your planning and find that the destination is 2.5 hours away and your instructor says just to top it off.

 

Even though you may want to just go and not do a W&B, because the temperature is a cool 45* F and very little humidity, you know that it's required to do one as per the FAR's and sit down to crunch the numbers (even though you can see the reluctance in your instructor's face).

 

The numbers come out to be 1420lbs (50 lbs over max gross) and ever so slightly out of the CG envelope.

 

Your instructor says it'll be fine, as we've done it multiple times before and that's why we do running take offs to get airborne if we're too heavy.

 

So what is the correct thing to do? I know I'm framing it in somewhat of a biased way, but here's how I see it:

 

Max gross weight, means max gross weight, and its not so much that it'll not fly, but rather putting extreme stresses on parts (i.e. transmission) and could potentially be unrecoverable or damaged if we're hit by turbulence or wind.

 

Also, I believe running takeoffs are meant to be done due to the density altitude factor and not a gross weight factor. I would imagine it's for hot and heavy, however one should still remain under gross weight.

 

I feel like I've read that the industry will expect you from time to time to fly out of gross weight, and you'll need to either choose to retain your job or stretch the envelope some.

 

Am I being silly for not wanting to fly 50lbs over gross...what about 30? 10? 1?

[DieselBoy]

So what is the correct thing to do?

 

 

Get a new instructor, one that doesn't teach a student to intentionally violate the FAR's (91.9) and put excessive stress on components. Also take into consideration the excessive coning, coning hinges, reduced lift area, and LTE. Would the Chief Pilot or DPE approve this flight?

 

Yes, the real world is different with different companies, but a student must learn the correct way to be a successful pilot.

Edited May 5, 2013 by DieselBoy

[superstallion6113]

Sounds like a prime example of hazardous personality. Over gross weight doesn't mean you need to do a running take off. It means you are exceeding the design limitations and performance of the aircraft.

Edited May 5, 2013 by superstallion6113

[pilot#476398]

I have been in your shoes more times than I care to count! There are too many CFIs out there willing to fly, not only over weight, but out of CG! As a student I just went along with them, not wanting to "rock the boat" as they say, thinking, if I make trouble, by calling out "irresponsable CFI" then they might not hire me! To be honest, I don't have a good answer for you, accept to just say,...you're not alone!

 

This does remind me of a video I saw about an old airliner crash, where the captain insisted on taking off through the fog (even though he didn't have clearance yet, because there was another airliner still on the runway, taxiing back that they couldn't see) and the first officer didn't stop him, because of some sense of "he's the captain, it's not my place to argue with him"! No one made it out alive!

[Wally]

Get a new instructor.

"Just top it off" works when you know what the result will be, and over gross and out of CG means, at best: that a very basic mistake was made; or more likely, lazy, stupid and careless flight planning.

 

In the real world, you almost never top off, either because you would bust MGTO on this leg or you'd be too heavy for the next assignment. Lazy, stupid, careless, and out of a job...

Edited May 5, 2013 by Wally

[apiaguy]

Getting a new instructor won't work. Get a new school. Sounds like more than just a stupid instructor.

[avbug]

You've heard about the three men who chartered an airplane in Alaska in order to go hunt bears? When the pilot dropped them off, he told them he'd be back in two days. They could carry out one bear. He returned in two days to find that the men had two dead bears at the pickup point.

 

The pilot told the men he could only carry one bear, and that he'd warned them about that for a reason. The men countered, explaining to the pilot that this wasn't their first time in the bush, and that last year, the pilot allowed them to bring out two bears.

 

"You've made this trip before with two bears?" The pilot asked. The men assured him they had. With that assurance, they loaded the bears, and took off. The flight strugged into the sky, and managed to clear one hill, then another, before finally slamming into a third peak. The pilot was killed, and the aircraft destroyed. The men staggered clear of the wreckage and looked about.

 

"Where do you think we are?" One asked.

 

"Oh, about a mile further than last year."

[eagle5]

You're a dime a dozen low timer who can be replaced at the drop of a hat!

 

At just 503 hours your flight school goes out of business. 5 unemployed years later you finally find someone willing to hire you. Its a small operation giving people rides in an R44. One day you go to fly and you notice that the 3 fat people sitting in your 44 easily puts you above MGW! You tell your boss only to have him respond, "It'll be fine we do this all the time"!

 

What will you do?

[apiaguy]

After some thought I suppose you should just fly over gross. Even though no one will tell you this and it isn't the smartest thing to do it is what we do all the time. From tour rides in a pos 44 to ag spraying lifting whatever the machine will give us regardless of map limits. This is a funny business and while I will still advise to hold the line I'm sure you will fly over gross a number of times in your career so what I should say is proceed w caution and know your limits

[DieselBoy]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/01/nyc-helicopter-crash-overloading-pilot-error-feds_n_2790478.html

 

 

The helicopter got into LTE as the pilot picked up and there were reports that he tried to get airspeed by diving off the heliport. With not having enough power, the helicopter hit the water.

[Hotdogs]

You're a dime a dozen low timer who can be replaced at the drop of a hat!

 

At just 503 hours your flight school goes out of business. 5 unemployed years later you finally find someone willing to hire you. Its a small operation giving people rides in an R44. One day you go to fly and you notice that the 3 fat people sitting in your 44 easily puts you above MGW! You tell your boss only to have him respond, "It'll be fine we do this all the time"!

 

What will you do?

 

Sit in the line turning until I burn the weight off and have the dumb@ss pay for the gas.

[Eric Hunt]

This is scary. The number of people who say "we do it all the time."

 

First: if you exceed weight limits, your insurance is void - you, the instructor, the passengers - the company will be exterminated by the costs of the crash.

Second: all performance charts start with the basic premise that you can hover in ground effect. If you can't, don't go.

Third: metal has a perfect memory. You stress it, it remembers by having a little crack or fracture line. Each time you do it, it adds a bit to that line. Eventually, it will let go. You might not be in it when it does, but you will be responsible for the deaths of those who were.

Fourth: Being outside the CG envelope is just plain stupid. Unbelievably stupid.

 

You don't even deserve to be a student, much less a licenced pilot, and definitely not an instructor.

[Sonic04GT]

 

Get a new instructor, one that doesn't teach a student to intentionally violate the FAR's (91.9) and put excessive stress on components. Also take into consideration the excessive coning, coning hinges, reduced lift area, and LTE. Would the Chief Pilot or DPE approve this flight?

 

Yes, the real world is different with different companies, but a student must learn the correct way to be a successful pilot.

I'll go with Mr. Diesel on this one.

[ridethisbike]

You're a dime a dozen low timer who can be replaced at the drop of a hat!

 

At just 503 hours your flight school goes out of business. 5 unemployed years later you finally find someone willing to hire you. Its a small operation giving people rides in an R44. One day you go to fly and you notice that the 3 fat people sitting in your 44 easily puts you above MGW! You tell your boss only to have him respond, "It'll be fine we do this all the time"!

 

What will you do?

 

 

I'd go do the math and figure out where I stand in regards to weight, CG and performance, if it's beyond limits, I figure out another way to make it happen (drain/burn fuel, move passengers around). I'd tell the boss my plans on how I'm going to make it happen legally and seek approval for said plan. If he doesn't approve and tells me to go fly anyways, I tell him I "must respectfully decline the flight" and give the reasons why (weight, CG, can I even hover?).

 

In the end, if something happens, it's your ass and your ticket on the line, not the boss'. If you get fired, at least you still have the piece of paper that lets you keep working. If you fly and something happens, not only is their the chance of death, but if you survive, the FAA will most likely take the piece of paper away and now you're super screwed.

 

The saying in the Army "do what your rank can afford" definitely applies here.

[apiaguy]

Before I have to backtrack to much today... Let me say that I do not endorse people flying over gross... I do think all pilots will exceed some limitation in their time flying. If you calculate your over by 1 pound most would not have a problem and figure they'd burn it off before flight. Then 10 lbs comes. Then 30, 50, 100. Etc depending on the machine. The point is that you have to use judgement and it is your call as what to do. In your example I think everyone will agree that 50 lbs over gross in a 22 is very foolish and your instructor needs serious help. I believe the real problem must lie with your school in letting this instructor have so much freedom that he feels he can get away with this. If you just change instructors you will most likely have some issues in the future because of this.

What my other post was attempting to relay is that there are times that we all choose poorly and get away with it... The learning experience is to take that experience and not make repeated mistakes... When I said "we do it all the time" I meant as an industry and yes it usually works out.. Unfortunately that doesn't ALWAYS hold true and it doesn't make it any less stupid

[eagle5]

 

Sit in the line turning until I burn the weight off and have the dumb@ss pay for the gas.

 

With the boss yelling at you, "Let's go, let's go, time is money!"

[avbug]

When, in an interview, you're asked about a time you flew over gross, the correct answer is "I would never knowingly fly over gross."

 

Bear in mind that gross weight is for optimum conditions. You'll encounter times throughout your career in which you can't load to gross, because that exceeds the operating conditions (density altitude, etc).

 

Gross weight is a limitation. Not a goal.

[eagle5]

After some thought I suppose you should just fly over gross. Even though no one will tell you this and it isn't the smartest thing to do it is what we do all the time. From tour rides in a pos 44 to ag spraying lifting whatever the machine will give us regardless of map limits. This is a funny business and while I will still advise to hold the line I'm sure you will fly over gross a number of times in your career so what I should say is proceed w caution and know your limits

 

When you fly with de-rated engines that most of the time will still let you takeoff even though you're over MGW, and you pull more MAP than "allowed" and see that nothing bad happens, then you get in the habit of,...well why not? Besides, I don't want to lose my job for refusing to fly, when the boss says, go!

 

The pressure to do things you shouldn't is pretty high in the commercial world, where time and money seem, to so many, to be the number one concern! How can an easily replaced low timer deal with it, when there are so many standing in line behind them willing to do ANYTHING to be employed?

 

Yeah, you could find another CFI, or even another school, but I've seen this sh*t in many different places so, good luck!

[avbug]

Carson Helicopters springs to mind.

 

http://wildfiretoday.com/2013/02/04/former-employees-of-carson-helicopters-indicted-over-fatal-iron-44-fire-crash/

[DontCallMeShirley]

Third: metal has a perfect memory. You stress it, it remembers by having a little crack or fracture line. Each time you do it, it adds a bit to that line. Eventually, it will let go. You might not be in it when it does, but you will be responsible for the deaths of those who were.

Fourth: Being outside the CG envelope is just plain stupid. Unbelievably stupid.

 

You don't even deserve to be a student, much less a licenced pilot, and definitely not an instructor.

 

This is what has me concerned the most. There's little doubt that most can maintain a 2ft hover without exceeding the MAP chart and make a very long take off, but those little stress fractures that start adding up for future pilots and passenger. There are much heavier students than myself, so if this culture is prevalent for everyone to "just go", what is lurking on the inside that isn't apparent on a preflight. The helicopters at the school are definitely tired as well, with a few just being shy of overhaul.

 

I don't want to necessarily say that nobody does a W&B, but I've only see one or two students actually do one, and it was just so they knew what it was for their checkride. As a student I feel uncomfortable being the one that has to bring these kinds of things up and feel that my particular instructor doesn't necessarily understand what max gross weight means. I think the attitude is that if it'll hover and you can comfortably control it, then you are within limits. Even if you can't, a run on take off is all that you need.

 

We have a 44 that is used from time to time for photo flights and charter, and I asked the CFI, who was fairy new at the time what the fuel capacity was, and he said he'd have to look it up as he didn't know . This was as he loaded up two passengers to do a survey of a cattle ranch or something.

 

This may be a silly question as well, but along the lines of personal minimums, do any of you discount the max gross weight limit if you are dealing with an aged helicopter, using the TBO numbers in some way? I wouldn't expect an 88 Bronco to have the same towing capacity as it did when new, so just curious if one uses the same mentality with an R22 as I know they are overhauled and brought back to life, but surely start to wear out.

[Spike]

Flying over gross weight is negligent operations, plain and simple…..

 

If anything were to happen while flying over gross weight, you the pilot would be found negligent and be responsible for any damages. And no, your employer won’t protect you. In fact, they’ll be sitting on the other side of the courtroom seeking damages FROM you. In this instance, no one will be your friend…

 

If the boss asks me to fly a machine over gross weight, I’d say no and suggest he do it. If he fires me on the spot, then I’d walk. That is, walk over to the machine and let the customers know of the unsafe condition for which I was just fired for. From there my iPhone would out and recording. Understand, safety is everyone’s responsibility and if you can’t handle standing up for it, then seek another profession cuz this one doesn’t need you…..

 

IMO, this is one of those silly questions rooks throw around to gauge expectations. Furthermore, advancing through this business is not just about going from a R22 to a 206 to an Astar and so-on-and-so-forth. It’s about understanding the level of professionalism required to do this and accepting the monumental responsibility associated when operating these machines…. Simply put, only an f’en moron would ever fly over gross weight. And, if you knowingly do so, you should be held accountable to the highest degree….

 

OP,
I suggest you seek another flight school and before you leave, do us all a favor and fulfill your responsibility as an aviator and inform the owner about incident for which you described in your post. Doing so may save a life someday…….

Edited May 5, 2013 by Spike

[Goldy]

This is Tim Tucker's favorite subject and he teaches it regularly...

 

"Third: metal has a perfect memory. You stress it, it remembers by having a little crack or fracture line. Each time you do it, it adds a bit to that line. Eventually, it will let go."

 

I can't see any reason why you would ever need to do a running takeoff, just shouldn't happen. As far as being over gross, just don't go there. Take it to max if you have to (I have to regularly) and add a fuel stop if needed.

 

It's a tough thing as a pilot to stand up to others, but it's the responsibility that you are taking on. If you can't handle it, find a different profession.....and I mean that seriously, not as an attack in any way.

 

Your firm decision to follow the rules will follow you, and so will your decisions not to.

 

Fly Safe!

Goldy

[Mikemv]

To the OP & other Pilots in Training (PT),

 

Own your flight training! Have an "In Command" mentality about every flight.

 

If you are at the point in your training that you can figure W&B after topping off, and finding that you were over GW or out of CG, don't you think that you should have acted as PIC and worked your W&B to a zero fuel weight and calculated how much fuel you could take on to be at or under MGW & within CG limitations?

 

Weight is the only performance factor that pilots can control. CONTROL it!

 

Professionalism starts the first flight and continues through out a career or NOT!

 

Do not blame your CFI, own your flight, be "In Command".

 

The rest of us will blame your CFI and if we knew him his career would be short lived.

 

Mike

[Counterrotate]

Is this a hypothetical situation or did this really happen? In my opinion that instructor is not only doing you a disservice, he is mar on the flight instructor community and has forgotten or completely disregarded his obligations as an instructor. Flight instructors are supposed to teach people how to fly by the book. You have your whole career to develop cheats and tricks and bad habits. When you come out of flight school with your shiny new wings, you should have been taught how to do it right. A flight school that breeds bad habits in their students is putting the whole industry in jeopardy.

[500F]

I had nearly the exact same scenario when I was in training. It was also about 50lbs over in a R22 and the instructor said "it will be fine we do it all the time". I told him no, well go somewhere else for our cross country and get fuel enroute. he said the company's policy was to get fuel only from their own FBO. I told him I didn’t care, I wasn’t going to fly over gross. He went and talked to the boss and we got fuel at the other airport.