CH-47 vs. AH-64

[Yamer]

golf sucks unless youre playing it lol hockeyis best no matter what....

 

ooooo new thread idea

Edited May 28, 2013 by Yamer

[wopilot]

"Gun Service Terminated"

 

You'll only fly as fast as your gun service... so how fast you fly "loaded to the gills" doesn't matter.

 

[Velocity173]

When I fall down I pick myself up.

 

 

Edited May 28, 2013 by Velocity173

[PhrogGuy]

When I fall down I pick myself up.

 

 

18837_108810705799039_4894283_n.jpg

Envious. My useful external load is about 4,000 lbs.

[superstallion6113]

Right, because 47s alway fly slick with no payload so they can fly fast...

 

53 dudes say the same bullshit, but we smoke them when they're carrying anything useful in the back or slung, and that's us with ordnance...

Back in my Iraq days in TQ we would fly with a Cobra escort. They couldn't keep up at 150 kts, so we'd be behind then with the nose in the air lawley gagging along at Ch-46 speeds. Hell with 3 good engines on a cool day we'd be at 160-165. Ill see if I can dig up the pic I have of the dash on a flight where we were at 180ish on a cross country from Quantico to Long Beach. We made good time that day. Only time we'd ever have to slow down below 150 was because we had a heavy sling load, a light sling load(humvees sway quite over 130 if its at all turbulent), or because its just plain hot on some weak 1,200+ hr motors. Edited May 29, 2013 by superstallion6113

[PhrogGuy]

Back in my Iraq days in TQ we would fly with a Cobra escort. They couldn't keep up at 150 kts, so we'd be behind then with the nose in the air lawley gagging along at Ch-46 speeds. Hell with 3 good engines on a cool day we'd be at 160-165. Ill see if I can dig up the pic I have of the dash on a flight where we were at 180ish on a cross country from Quantico to Long Beach. We made good time that day. Only time we'd ever have to slow down below 150 was because we had a heavy sling load, a light sling load(humvees sway quite over 130 if its at all turbulent), or because its just plain hot on some weak 1,200+ hr motors.

Whoa whoa whoa now. CH-46 speeds are by no means lolly-gagging. 120 is perfectly respectable. I hear you on the escorts though. Hated flying mixed Divisions with a Huey. "Need some knots, Grey Goose." over Fallujah or on the way to Balad was not what I wanted to hear.

[Lindsey]

I don't really understand this obsession with speed in helicopters. Slower means more flight time in the logbook, after all!

 

Besides, flying lower to the ground at a slower speed is going to *seem* way faster than flying 400 knots in an airplane at 30,000' feet. Motion parallax.

 

Basically, the 58 wins!

[PhrogGuy]

I don't really understand this obsession with speed in helicopters. Slower means more flight time in the logbook, after all!

 

Besides, flying lower to the ground at a slower speed is going to *seem* way faster than flying 400 knots in an airplane at 30,000' feet. Motion parallax.

 

Basically, the 58 wins!

It's all fun and games until you are in a gigantic moving target. Lower to the ground at higher speeds means less acquisition time for the enemy gun system (most of the time), MANPAD or otherwise. Having to slow down for an gunship escort was always bad juju in my book. And . . . . on a lighter not, it is definitely a mine is bigger than yours pissing match.

[Hotdogs]

Yeah, the days of flying with the UH-1N are over, and like I said, flying with anything useful. I know it was probably painful, but I bet you felt alot better about it when you heard the mini-gun open up after your ASE gear bells and whistles starting going off.

[copter doctor]

I think the Russians have all of us on the " mine is bigger " bit. Love the pics Lindsey.

[PhrogGuy]

Yeah, the days of flying with the UH-1N are over, and like I said, flying with anything useful. I know it was probably painful, but I bet you felt alot better about it when you heard the mini-gun open up after your ASE gear bells and whistles starting going off.

Luckily it never came to that. Thankfully, the only things the Iraqis were throwing at us was RPG's, various small arms and stick and stones (yeah). The skids' capability was nice to have though. I have heard it is a moot point given the 4 bladed Hueys and Cobras. Guess Phrogs are the low-riders of the fleet until they go away! And, didn't need them to go out to Korean Village or Al Qaim. That would have been really painful.

[PhrogGuy]

I think the Russians have all of us on the " mine is bigger " bit. Love the pics Lindsey.

Yup.

[akscott60]

Speed. Nice.

 

I fly 80 usually. Sometimes 90. Vne is 110 doors off, and often less.

[Velocity173]

It's all fun and games until you are in a gigantic moving target. Lower to the ground at higher speeds means less acquisition time for the enemy gun system (most of the time), MANPAD or otherwise. Having to slow down for an gunship escort was always bad juju in my book. And . . . . on a lighter not, it is definitely a mine is bigger than yours pissing match.

I'd agree with that assessment for early OIF/OEF times when it was the wild west and we could fly at terrain flight everywhere we went. Since then with all the altitude restrictions, aircraft are in prime quarters for MANPAD areas. Helicopter speeds aren't that important in avoiding MANPADS when you're thousands of feet up and the bad guys have all day for lock on.

 

A lot of this speed data that is posted is book stuff and not real world stuff. While a 60 is listed at 193 Vne, you'll see no where near that. Just like the other claims for other airframes. Even the cruise speeds listed are at Vh and not a typical cruise. Where the 60 shines though is high altitude performance. At say 12,000 ft and the Apache guys are whining about maintaining 100 KIAS to keep up as an escort, we're not even breaking a sweat. As soon as we're done with their services we thank them for their help, then pull in power and say "see ya at the house." We got places to go and schedules to keep. Plus, when it's Friday steak and lobster night at the chow hall, you don't play games. You get back as fast as she'll go to get a good place in line.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Velocity173

[Velocity173]

Speed. Nice.

 

I fly 80 usually. Sometimes 90. Vne is 110 doors off, and often less.

I had to follow our BDE CDR and his SP once in a 58. He said he could give us 80 KIAS. Painful. That's about a 1 degree nose up attitude for a 60. I had to keep telling my PI to slow down because he kept accelerating away. On the way back the BDE CDR bumps my PI and flew back with me. Rank has it's privileges.

[wopilot]

I'd agree with that assessment for early OIF/OEF times when it was the wild west and we could fly at terrain flight everywhere we went. Since then with all the altitude restrictions, aircraft are in prime quarters for MANPAD areas. Helicopter speeds aren't that important in avoiding MANPADS when you're thousands of feet up and the bad guys have all day for lock on.

 

A lot of this speed data that is posted is book stuff and not real world stuff. While a 60 is listed at 193 Vne, you'll see no where near that. Just like the other claims for other airframes. Even the cruise speeds listed are at Vh and not a typical cruise. Where the 60 shines though is high altitude performance. At say 12,000 ft and the Apache guys are whining about maintaining 100 KIAS to keep up as an escort, we're not even breaking a sweat. As soon as we're done with their services we thank them for their help, then pull in power and say "see ya at the house." We got places to go and schedules to keep. Plus, when it's Friday steak and lobster night at the chow hall, you don't play games. You get back as fast as she'll go to get a good place in line.

 

This won't be an issue with the 64E... And if you had gun service, and they were only doing 100.. That was piss poor planning. Even with 3-400 rounds, 16 rockets, and a full bag @12 I was 120

[PhrogGuy]

Plus, when it's Friday steak and lobster night at the chow hall, you don't play games. You get back as fast as she'll go to get a good place in line.

Yeah, I was always very skeptical of the "lobster." And, had one too many pieces of "shot" in my steak to be appetizing. Gotta love government procured food, lol.

[wopilot]

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/local&id=9119567

 

Is this one of the HMX support birds?

[PhrogGuy]

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/local&id=9119567

 

Is this one of the HMX support birds?

Yes, it is.

[Velocity173]

Yeah, I was always very skeptical of the "lobster." And, had one too many pieces of "shot" in my steak to be appetizing. Gotta love government procured food, lol.

Yeah I was more of a taco bar night fan than steak and lobster myself.

[superstallion6113]

Luckily it never came to that. Thankfully, the only things the Iraqis were throwing at us was RPG's, various small arms and stick and stones (yeah). The skids' capability was nice to have though. I have heard it is a moot point given the 4 bladed Hueys and Cobras. Guess Phrogs are the low-riders of the fleet until they go away! And, didn't need them to go out to Korean Village or Al Qaim. That would have been really painful.

If I never again fly into a place like KV or Al Qaim it will be too soon. I use to do the Iraq 500(Al Asad, KV, Mediasus, Al Qaim, with some Kalsu action at times) pretty much nightly when I was in TQ. The brown outs at KV were nuts in a 53.

[PhrogGuy]

[highside7r]

Please next topic Chevy vs. Ford or F-22 vs. SU-35.

[Rupert]

I flew CH-46's in the Marine Corps, and we could out-maneuver and out-fly the Cobras of the era, except in a dive.

 

I'd like to see an Air Combat Maneuvering contest between a 47 and a 64.

[wopilot]

I flew CH-46's in the Marine Corps, and we could out-maneuver and out-fly the Cobras of the era, except in a dive.

 

I'd like to see an Air Combat Maneuvering contest between a 47 and a 64.

Considering our pitch/bank limits are 60/120 and are the only military helicopter approved for that... It might get ugly.

 

But I digress... Lets do it