Logging Experience as Pilot-in-Command

[Joe_P148]

 

I don't know why you wouldn't. As a rated pilot, you log PIC anytime you are sole manipulator of the controls. My instructor RARELY touched the controls in Primary, a little more in instruments. You are logging time in an FAA logbook, so I think you have to forget about what the Army designations are when you are filling in the logbook. The regs (FARs) have a definition for PIC:

 

(FAR 1.1): "the person who (1) has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight; (2) has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and (3) holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight"

 

And then there are regs regarding who can legally act as PIC in Part 61. Also, only one pilot can act as PIC during a flight.

 

However, the regs also state who can log PIC time (FAR 61.51(e)). It is clear that there can only be one PIC designated for the flight, but two or more pilots can log PIC time.

 

So you are right, we were not ACTING as PIC during primary, instruments or BWS, but that does not preclude us from logging it as PIC time in the logbook. Hell, on the civilian side, everything after Private is logged as PIC. Why would I stop logging it just because I'm in the Army?

 

Will there be a difference between the 759 and the personal logbook. YES. But there would have been a difference anyway since I had PIC time when we started Army Flight Training.

Can I explain the difference? YES. I just did. The Army definition of logging PC time does not match the FAA definition for logging PIC time. Maybe it will come back to bite me in the ass when I try to get a job in the civilian world, but I think people only say that because they are afraid to dig into the FARs and figure out the answers.

In regards to the difference between the FAA regs and AR95-1 I believe both specify only one person can log PIC time and I'm fairly certain your BWS instructor wasn't logging SIC or PI time. Log however you feel is appropriate but if your that in need of PIC time the 40 or so hours your gonna get in flight school is gonna do jack for your logbook especially if you already have an ATP.

[skyreaper]

 

I don't know why you wouldn't. As a rated pilot, you log PIC anytime you are sole manipulator of the controls. My instructor RARELY touched the controls in Primary, a little more in instruments. You are logging time in an FAA logbook, so I think you have to forget about what the Army designations are when you are filling in the logbook. The regs (FARs) have a definition for PIC:

 

(FAR 1.1): "the person who (1) has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight; (2) has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and (3) holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight"

 

And then there are regs regarding who can legally act as PIC in Part 61. Also, only one pilot can act as PIC during a flight.

 

However, the regs also state who can log PIC time (FAR 61.51(e)). It is clear that there can only be one PIC designated for the flight, but two or more pilots can log PIC time.

 

So you are right, we were not ACTING as PIC during primary, instruments or BWS, but that does not preclude us from logging it as PIC time in the logbook. Hell, on the civilian side, everything after Private is logged as PIC. Why would I stop logging it just because I'm in the Army?

 

Will there be a difference between the 759 and the personal logbook. YES. But there would have been a difference anyway since I had PIC time when we started Army Flight Training.

Can I explain the difference? YES. I just did. The Army definition of logging PC time does not match the FAA definition for logging PIC time. Maybe it will come back to bite me in the ass when I try to get a job in the civilian world, but I think people only say that because they are afraid to dig into the FARs and figure out the answers.

 

My thoughts exactly. As a civilian student you log PIC and dual as well as anytime you are flying with an instructor for the purpose of meeting training/currency requirements. Except on the required solo flights, thats PIC time. I'm somewhat speaking in ignorance about the Army, but I think it goes without saying that there are many types of military flight times that are defined for a purpose that differs from that of civilian time. I have to agree with the point made here, if you meet 61.51, I see no reason why that couldn't be counted as PIC in a civilian log book. The one caveat to this is 61.51 (h(2(i,ii)))... that PIC (training) time has to be endorsed and certified by the authorized instructor. The only reason for that is that you meet the training and currency requirements. If anything is dicey about this, it would be trying to log PIC training time without proper instructor certification too. There is a way to do that, legally, but you would need to be able to prove that you still meet the required flight and training requirements on the civilian end when a FAA examiner or whoever is scrutinizing your log book. In other words, If you are properly certified/rated for whatever flight op you are logging PIC time on, and don't have the instructor cert. your civilian logbook (or military equivalent), don't try and pass that off as training towards a cert. or rating. But, I would imagine that is a mute point due to the military flight time documentation... don't want to talk in circles, I believe as long as you can prove the proper info. from military books to civilian, that is legal and would cover you for PIC and dual (edit) received.... not given. I give dual time.

[eagle5]

So at what point does a pilot finally say to himself, I don't really give a sh*t about loging flight time anymore. I stopped counting at...?

[skyreaper]

So at what point does a pilot finally say to himself, I don't really give a sh*t about loging flight time anymore. I stopped counting at...?

 

When it becomes irrelevant from a career progression standpoint and/or stops caring. I think that point is usually around 12,000 total time. Personally, I feel like I've worked pretty hard to get what I have now, and I would be remiss to ever stop counting.

[d10]

Ok man, your not acting as the PIC and the way I see it your trying to fat pencil your logbook. Your ethics are a bit dicey...

 

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/career-questions/43740-pic-dual-received.html

 

In regards to the difference between the FAA regs and AR95-1 I believe both specify only one person can log PIC time and I'm fairly certain your BWS instructor wasn't logging SIC or PI time. Log however you feel is appropriate but if your that in need of PIC time the 40 or so hours your gonna get in flight school is gonna do jack for your logbook especially if you already have an ATP.

 

None of this is right. A licensed helicopter pilot can log PIC time for any time spent as the sole manipulator of the controls in a helicopter which they are rated for. There's no ethical gray area here, it's spelled out clearly in 61.51(e)(1) under subparagraph (i). If you have a PPL or CPL with a Rotorcraft rating, that includes all helicopters under 12,500 lbs. After you receive orders declaring you rated in the UH-60/CH-47/AH-64 it includes those too. This interpretation is backed up over and over again through FAA rulings. Just search here for "sole manipulator" and you'll find dozens of examples.

 

I couldn't find any examples of a flight instructor logging PIC at the same time, but there are plenty of examples showing scenarios where two pilots can both log PIC time. In all cases where both pilots clearly meet one of the requirements of 61.51(e) it's been ruled legal. 61.51(e)(3) spells it out clearly for the instructor: "A certificated flight instructor may log pilot in command flight time for all flight time while serving as the authorized instructor in an operation if the instructor is rated to act as pilot in command of that aircraft." That's it, no other qualifications or exceptions. It's very black and white.

 

That link you provided is not a good reference for the real world applications because the airline and helicopter industries regard PIC time differently. Airlines are always 2+ pilot operations and they view it similarly to the Army. They care more about who's signed for the aircraft than they do who's flying it. Helicopter operators care more about the time spent on the controls. That's why most helicopter job postings set minimum hours based on PIC time, not total time. A job that requires 2,000 hour PIC is expecting plenty of applications from civilian pilots who have been logging PIC since their PPL checkride and only have 2,100-2,200 hours total time. Those pilots aren't logging unethically, that's how it's done in the civilian world. If you want to wait until you have 3k total/2k PIC to apply for that job because you can't get on board with the civilian definition of the term, feel free, but it's not necessary.

[Velocity173]

Yeah they can log it because they're rated already. They might be designated as students in the Army but for meeting PIC logging requirements they're good. Where it gets gray is if the instructor in 67s can log it simultaneously since it's not an aircraft that requires two pilots. There is a provision in 61.51 for instructors but it's difficult to determine if a flight program at Rucker falls under a PIC training program as the FAA defines it. Not sure if students training in a 67 would be considered undergoing PIC training. Perhaps a Chief Counsel letter is in order. Either way, I'm fairly certain the 67 IPs are logging the entire thing as PIC.

 

Army doesn't care about wiggling sticks, they care about who is designated or briefed as PIC. That's why there can be only one PIC for logging in the Army. Army's logging actually reflects the definition in FAR part 1.1 where civilian logging of PIC is covered in 61.51. Two completely different definitions.

 

Same goes for when you have a PI flying a 60. They're rated in the aircraft and the sole manipulator of the controls, they can log it in their civ logs. Could mean a substantial amount of time.

 

Now, as pretty much everyone will tell you, when it comes to a job interview, they know the difference. If the job requires 1,000 hrs PIC and they see 800 hrs in a 759 and 1,000 in a civ logbook, there's a good chance the employer will want acting (759) PIC. My employer specifically asked in the interview "that's Army briefed PIC correct?"

Edited June 25, 2014 by Velocity173

[Joe_P148]

Now, as pretty much everyone will tell you, when it comes to a job interview, they know the difference. If the job requires 1,000 hrs PIC and they see 800 hrs in a 759 and 1,000 in a civ logbook, there's a good chance the employer will want acting (759) PIC. My employer specifically asked in the interview "that's Army briefed PIC correct?"

That's the point I was trying to make. I agree by the legal definition that he can log PIC time in the Flight school but who is he trying to kid here? We all know who was actually in command of the aircraft.

 

So your telling me also, in a course like BWS where you actually are manipulating the controls very little because your suppose to be navigating. That this guy started a clock every time he got an opportunity to take the controls and stopped it when he got off? Seems like he's focused more on the hours then the course material.

 

From everything I've learned in the Army. Hours don't make the pilot.

 

I personally don't put that much emphasis on logging, to the question about logging I stopped worrying after 2000 TT but to each thier own.

 

There's a big difference between the legal definition of PIC and who's actually a PIC,

[d10]

Where it gets gray is if the instructor in 67s can log it simultaneously since it's not an aircraft that requires two pilots. There is a provision in 61.51 for instructors but it's difficult to determine if a flight program at Rucker falls under a PIC training program as the FAA defines it. Not sure if students training in a 67 would be considered undergoing PIC training.

...

Now, as pretty much everyone will tell you, when it comes to a job interview, they know the difference. If the job requires 1,000 hrs PIC and they see 800 hrs in a 759 and 1,000 in a civ logbook, there's a good chance the employer will want acting (759) PIC. My employer specifically asked in the interview "that's Army briefed PIC correct?"

 

I think you're mixing up a few of the definitions.

 

-The sole manipulator can log PIC if rated in the aircraft, period (61.51(e)(1)(i)).

-The briefed PIC can log PIC for the entire flight if the aircraft (by type rating, ie UH-60) or operation (ie VMC under the hood) requires 2+ pilots (61.51(e)(1)(iii)). I would say this excludes TH-67 instructors at Rucker during most operations.

-A licensed pilot can log PIC on an aircraft he's not rated in if undergoing an approved training program and meets a huge list of requirements (61.51(e)(iv)). If these requirements are ever met in the Army I'm not aware of it, and it would certainly be a rare occurrence.

-A CFI can log all flight time if instructing in an aircraft that they are qualified to act as PIC in, period (61.51(e)(3)). This would apply to TH-67 instructors at Rucker. This sometimes gets mixed in with the previous laundry list of requirements of 61.51(e)(1)(iv) because it goes into so many subparagraphs it's hard to tell when a new paragraph begins, but 61.51(e)(3) is completely separate from 61.51(e)(1). There are no other requirements or exceptions for a CFI. If they're exercising the privileges of their CFI certificate and could otherwise log PIC, they can log PIC time whether they're the briefed PIC or on the controls or not.

 

Also IME, not everyone tells you civilian companies are looking for briefed PIC time. In many cases it's the opposite. It's operator dependent and I wouldn't say it leans one way or the other a majority of the time. If a civilian operator subject to FAR 61 asked me if my PIC time was all AR 95-1 PIC I would say no, it's PIC time IAW with rules and regulations applicable to the job I'm applying for and I'm ready to defend any entry in my logbook with the appropriate definition. I certainly don't think you'll be blacklisted from a company for taking that stance. Worst case scenario they clarify what definition they're actually looking for and you either have the hours or you don't, but you won't be any worse off for trying to do things right.

[Velocity173]

 

I think you're mixing up a few of the definitions.

 

-The sole manipulator can log PIC if rated in the aircraft, period (61.51(e)(1)(i)).

-The briefed PIC can log PIC for the entire flight if the aircraft (by type rating, ie UH-60) or operation (ie VMC under the hood) requires 2+ pilots (61.51(e)(1)(iii)). I would say this excludes TH-67 instructors at Rucker during most operations.

-A licensed pilot can log PIC on an aircraft he's not rated in if undergoing an approved training program and meets a huge list of requirements (61.51(e)(iv)). If these requirements are ever met in the Army I'm not aware of it, and it would certainly be a rare occurrence.

-A CFI can log all flight time if instructing in an aircraft that they are qualified to act as PIC in, period (61.51(e)(3)). This would apply to TH-67 instructors at Rucker. This sometimes gets mixed in with the previous laundry list of requirements of 61.51(e)(1)(iv) because it goes into so many subparagraphs it's hard to tell when a new paragraph begins, but 61.51(e)(3) is completely separate from 61.51(e)(1). There are no other requirements or exceptions for a CFI. If they're exercising the privileges of their CFI certificate and could otherwise log PIC, they can log PIC time whether they're the briefed PIC or on the controls or not.

 

Also IME, not everyone tells you civilian companies are looking for briefed PIC time. In many cases it's the opposite. It's operator dependent and I wouldn't say it leans one way or the other a majority of the time. If a civilian operator subject to FAR 61 asked me if my PIC time was all AR 95-1 PIC I would say no, it's PIC time IAW with rules and regulations applicable to the job I'm applying for and I'm ready to defend any entry in my logbook with the appropriate definition. I certainly don't think you'll be blacklisted from a company for taking that stance. Worst case scenario they clarify what definition they're actually looking for and you either have the hours or you don't, but you won't be any worse off for trying to do things right.

You're correct. Now that I read it, it does appear the CFI 61.51 (e) (3) is completely separate from the PIC training requirements. They can log the entire thing as PIC.

 

As far as a job requirements, I didn't say that all employers wouldn't count sole manipulator for PIC, just saying there's a good chance they'll look at briefed PIC instead. Just like the comments made in the airline pilot forum above, a lot of employers put more weight on acting PIC than sole manipulator.

 

Personally I have no problem with either rated pilots logging PIC in 67s while still being designated as a military student. Don't have any problem with a rated PI in 60s logging PIC while sole manipulator. It's not even a conscience thing, it's legal. Even the differences in the definition of "flight time," an Army Aviator will generally have more hours in their civ logs than their 759. The FAA or an employer might question it, but in reality it's legal. Personally my civ logs reflect my 759 for simplicity sake.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Velocity173

[01CelicaGTS]

That's the point I was trying to make. I agree by the legal definition that he can log PIC time in the Flight school but who is he trying to kid here? We all know who was actually in command of the aircraft.

...

From everything I've learned in the Army. Hours don't make the pilot.

 

Again, nobody is saying that during IERW, we are the briefed PC, or as you say "in command of the aircraft", we are saying that according the regs (not AR 95-1, rather 14CFR Part 61) it is 100% ok to log PIC when you are rated and sole manipulator.

 

Also, I don't think that anyone would argue with you that hours don't make the pilot. However, the real issue here is that civilian employers require a certain amount of time to meet insurance minimums, and if you don't have that you won't even be looked at. It's not "fudging the logbook", its following the regs. If you want to shortchange yourself, go ahead. And I don't feel that logging it is the slightest bit unethical, since the regs warrant logging it. If an employer asks for briefed PIC time, then it wouldn't be that hard to point to my 759. That's the only briefed PIC time that I have. Now, I'm not sure because I've never been in an interview with a civilian helicopter employer, but I don't understand why it would be such a big deal to have to explain the difference. It's pretty clear to me.

[Velocity173]

I don't think it's a big deal to explain the difference, just depending on who you apply for might want a certain type of PIC experience.

 

A friend of mine applied to a major EMS company and his 759 PIC time was no where near their 1,000 hr requirement. His civ logs however gave him just enough. The employer knew the reason for difference and had no problem hiring him.

 

I'm my case they asked if it was briefed PIC. If I had a "combo" I'm not entirely sure it would have made a difference in getting hired.

[CharyouTree]

 

Again, nobody is saying that during IERW, we are the briefed PC, or as you say "in command of the aircraft", we are saying that according the regs (not AR 95-1, rather 14CFR Part 61) it is 100% ok to log PIC when you are rated and sole manipulator.

 

Also, I don't think that anyone would argue with you that hours don't make the pilot. However, the real issue here is that civilian employers require a certain amount of time to meet insurance minimums, and if you don't have that you won't even be looked at. It's not "fudging the logbook", its following the regs. If you want to shortchange yourself, go ahead. And I don't feel that logging it is the slightest bit unethical, since the regs warrant logging it. If an employer asks for briefed PIC time, then it wouldn't be that hard to point to my 759. That's the only briefed PIC time that I have. Now, I'm not sure because I've never been in an interview with a civilian helicopter employer, but I don't understand why it would be such a big deal to have to explain the difference. It's pretty clear to me.

 

I had a hard time keeping track of exactly who was saying what, and who was trying to log what, and what that particular person's qualifications were, or were not, so I'm going to just put some stuff out there, as I understand it, or as I have been made aware of through conversations with FSDOs:

 

IF you go through IERW with your private or higher, you can log your time in the TH-67 as PIC (much like if you were a civilian working on your commercial, CFI, etc, that time is PIC). If you do NOT have a civilian rating already, you CAN NOT log any flight time as PIC until you graduate flight school (AQC) because that is when you are able to receive your military competency commercial. The fact that you took a check ride in primary that could be the equivalent of a check for your private means...nothing. Day you receive your wings.

 

Once you've graduated, the other things apply: time wiggling the sticks is time you can log PIC, because our aircraft require two pilots. If you're the Army PC, it's all PIC, because you're acting as the PIC.

 

 

I don't think it's a big deal to explain the difference, just depending on who you apply for might want a certain type of PIC experience.

 

A friend of mine applied to a major EMS company and his 759 PIC time was no where near their 1,000 hr requirement. His civ logs however gave him just enough. The employer knew the reason for difference and had no problem hiring him.

 

I'm my case they asked if it was briefed PIC. If I had a "combo" I'm not entirely sure it would have made a difference in getting hired.

 

I unfortunately had the opposite experience at HAI this year, with one of the operators. I was asked "what does your military paperwork say?" I don't know if this guy actually had any say in anything or not. I just thought it was bizarre that he only cared about my 759, and forget it if I had civilian time or not (or the fact that it's logged differently).

[CharyouTree]

Random thought as I was typing the above, but wanted to separate it out:

 

You're flying a two pilot aircraft, like a UH-60. You're doing simulated instrument (Hood) work. One is the safety pilot, and thus can log PIC. The other guy is flying, so on the controls, thus can log PIC. Does this mean that if you do a 2 hour sim instrument flight as a "PI", you can log it all as PIC, because at one time or another throughout the flight, you were either the safety pilot, or the pilot on the controls?

[Velocity173]

 

I had a hard time keeping track of exactly who was saying what, and who was trying to log what, and what that particular person's qualifications were, or were not, so I'm going to just put some stuff out there, as I understand it, or as I have been made aware of through conversations with FSDOs:

 

IF you go through IERW with your private or higher, you can log your time in the TH-67 as PIC (much like if you were a civilian working on your commercial, CFI, etc, that time is PIC). If you do NOT have a civilian rating already, you CAN NOT log any flight time as PIC until you graduate flight school (AQC) because that is when you are able to receive your military competency commercial. The fact that you took a check ride in primary that could be the equivalent of a check for your private means...nothing. Day you receive your wings.

 

Once you've graduated, the other things apply: time wiggling the sticks is time you can log PIC, because our aircraft require two pilots. If you're the Army PC, it's all PIC, because you're acting as the PIC.

 

 

 

I unfortunately had the opposite experience at HAI this year, with one of the operators. I was asked "what does your military paperwork say?" I don't know if this guy actually had any say in anything or not. I just thought it was bizarre that he only cared about my 759, and forget it if I had civilian time or not (or the fact that it's logged differently).

Yep, that's how I interpret the regs as well.

 

I agree on the 759. I also have friends who said the only thing they wanted to see was a 759. Personally that's how I'd do it as well. No that it's impossible to get those hours "fudged" by flight ops but because it's an easy to read snap shot of what you've got. In my interview I had both civ logs and 759 ready to view if needed.

Edited June 27, 2014 by Velocity173

[brackac]

So at what point does a pilot finally say to himself, I don't really give a sh*t about loging flight time anymore. I stopped counting at...?

Flight hour zero for me. I've never kept a log book. 1 hour or 100k. Who cares?

[d10]

Flight hour zero for me. I've never kept a log book. 1 hour or 100k. Who cares?

 

Employers usually.

[brackac]

Employers usually.

Employers usually.

Exactly why I don't keep a logbook. I've said it before, I would rather flip burgers than fly commercial.

[eagle5]

Flight hour zero for me. I've never kept a log book. 1 hour or 100k. Who cares?

So how did you document your flight time to get your certificate, and where do you put your BFR endorsements?

[SBuzzkill]

He's in the Army.

Edited June 27, 2014 by SBuzzkill

[eagle5]

Flight hour zero for me. I've never kept a log book. 1 hour or 100k. Who cares?

 

A logbook isn't just about hours, its also a record of where I've been/what kind of flying I've done. Almost like a little journal for future reflection.

[aeroscout]

He's in the Army.

The full quote is...

 

He's in the Army now,

He's not behind a plow,

He'll never get rich,

By digging a ditch,

He's in the Army now.

 

The 4th line is rumored to have an alternate wording.

[Tdubs]

I read all the responses and noticed a question I also had about logging BI and AI for FSXXI. I didn't notice a response to it. How should we log that in a Civ Logbook?

 

Also, is anyone logging time in the AVCATT as Sim? Word is, that's going to be used just as much as the normal Sims for us 64 guys. I'm aware it means basically nothing, but for the sake of counting the endless hours.....

 

Lastly, are there any 64 pilots here that can tell me how they're logging their time as it relates to DS, NS, NVG, FS, and BS? Most importantly, is there anything special to record about flights where ordnance was used?(other than how awesome it was and how great I shot)

[SBuzzkill]

AVCATT is a mission training tool not a simulator...

[Velocity173]

AVCATT can be used for 6 hrs semiannual. Never understood that. The thing has nothing to with replicating the actual aircraft.

[akscott60]

We have an AVCATT here in the ROK. Its a 47D cockpit. 2/3ds of the pilots aren't D rated, and we only have F models.

 

Go figure.