Atheist-Pilot: A Dangerous Combination!

[Nearly Retired]

If you do not believe in a Creator because you’ve seen no evidence of one, but even so you admit that there is a possibility that one exists, we would call you an agnostic.

 

If you do not believe that a Creator exists and further, that a Creator absolutely does not exist, then we would call you an atheist.

 

Fair enough?

 

We pilots live by the words written in some books. First and foremost are the FAR’s (Federal Aviation Regulations), which govern the way we go about conducting our activity in general.

 

Then there is the RFM (Rotorcraft Flight Manual), which spells out how we will operate our aircraft.

 

For many of us there is an additional book called the GOM (General Operations Manual) that the company gives us with instructions as to how to conduct their business (that being the business of commercial aviation). The GOM will often incorporate items from the FAR’s and RFM, and sometimes the book will specify limits that are more restrictive than what the FAA or aircraft manufacturer calls for.

 

We adhere to the words in the above three books because as far as we’re concerned they have the force of law. There is also a book called the AIM (Aeronautical Information Manual) which, while not regulatory it does provide guidance as to the policies and procedures that the FAA “likes” or finds acceptable.

 

We pilots take these books and go do our job, hopefully without crashing and killing ourselves and our passengers.

 

Unfortunately, no book can cover every eventuality or scenario because to try would result in it being bigger than the Manhattan Yellow Pages. We pilots sometimes find ourselves in situations for which no procedures have been derived. In times like these we are called upon to think “outside the box”…to get creative and make it up as we go along without the comfort of knowing that there is specific guidance for our actions. We use our accumulated experience, judgment, and skill to do whatever needs to be done.

 

United Airlines Captain Al Haynes and his crews found themselves in just such a situation in 1989. The center engine of his DC-10 airliner blew up in flight, severing fluid lines for all three hydraulic systems (triple redundancy!). The end result was that in the cockpit, the yoke and pedals had absolutely ZERO effect on the control surfaces. An obviously-chagrined United Airlines’ maintenance department radioed them that there was, uhh, no emergency procedure for such a thing because nobody ever thought that it could happen: The aircraft is unflyable without at least one working hydraulic system. Well wasn’t *that* a cheerful bit of news!

 

Nevertheless, Captain Haynes and his crew persevered, got creative and managed to get the jet down on an airport where there was emergency equipment standing by. Of the 296 people on board, 111 died. That such a relatively small number of people died given the fact that everyone onboard “should” have perished can legitimately be called a…a…a what?...yes, a “miracle.”

 

Now we get back to the atheist pilot. As we’ve noted before, the atheist believes that a Creator cannot exist. The atheist refuses to open his mind to the mere possibility that there is more to this universe than has been revealed to us by “science.” The atheist cannot conceive of something outside of “the box” of his limited comprehension. The atheist thinks he (or she!) knows better than everyone else.

 

Such narrow-minded thinking has absolutely no place in the cockpit. Not only that, it’s a dangerous mindset. And this is why I not only would never hire an atheist pilot, but if I found out that one of my pilots was a true atheist (and not just claiming to be one for dramatic effect) I would find a way to fire him/her.

 

I want pilots who can be creative…who know that not all of the answers are quantified and written down in a book. I want pilots who can think for themselves and explore possibilities beyond what it says in the FAR’s, GOM or RFM. Or a science book.

 

Atheists, by definition, cannot do this. By saying, “THERE IS NO GOD!” the atheist is announcing to the world that his/her thinking is incredibly limited, that his/her field of view quite narrow and restrictive.

 

Hey, if you don’t want to believe in a Creator, that is your business and I’m actually fine with it. But don’t force your beliefs on me. Don’t tell me that just because YOU can’t conceive of something beyond yourself…because YOU have come to the conclusion that a Creator does not exist…cannot exist…then a Creator does not in fact exist. Because it’s not a “fact” and I don’t appreciated being belittled for my faith. See, I may not be able to prove to your satisfaction that a Creator *does* exist, but neither can you prove to me that one does not. That you cannot open your mind to the tiniest possibility that one does exist is extremely disturbing.

 

I, obviously, do believe that a Creator exists. And I call on His help now and then, like when I’m flying and find myself in situations that aren’t in any book. I ask Him to help me come up with a workable solution, to find a way of getting such-and-such done without crashing. Is it silly? Is it stupid? Perhaps. But I’d much rather fly along in that belief than fly blindly under the mistaken (and horribly pompous) assumption that all answers are knowable…that I already know them and won’t have to come up with any on my own…and that I cannot think “outside the box”...because I’ve already demonstrated to the world that I cannot.

 

Now do you see why atheists make such dangerous pilots?

[Eric Hunt]

To choose your particular brand of Sky Pixie, you perhaps rejected one hundred other "gods" to end up with yours.

 

So you are going to fire me for rejecting one hundred and one? And you talk about how bad it is being bound by a book of rules and being inflexible and unable to think outside the box.

 

Previously, I had supported some of your opinions voiced so loudly on this forum. An Aviation forum is not the place to raise this sort of controversial, personal stuff. Almost as bad as saying "I will sack any pilot who likes guns."

[Black Bear]

HOLY S..T! It sounds like you are pushing your beliefs on all of us. I am usually not so brash, but you have to be lacking some critical thinking skills yourself, to believe that ones personal beliefs somehow dictate what kind of professional they might be.

[rotormandan]

Quote: "Hey, if you don’t want to believe in a Creator, that is your business and I’m actually fine with it. But don’t force your beliefs on me. "

 

I have to throw that back at you. Not hiring or firing someone who doesn't believe in what you do is basically forcing your beliefs on them. It doesn't sound like you're fine with it.

 

I also would make the argument that an atheist actually can think outside the box. Mainly because they rely on themselves to figure it out. They are atheist because they probably think too much. They don't expect a hand from the heavens to bail them out. They don't live with in the confines of a religious book. One might argue that the religious book is a box one would think inside of.

 

Not that it matters but I'm not atheist. I don't really agree with this post, but I find it interesting.

[terminal_velo]

Another atheism thread from you? You have an axe to grind, no problem, we all do, but I'm not sure why you're so intent on doing it here. Your assertion that an atheist pilot, by nature of being atheist, will be a lessor pilot is laughable. You have no justification for making that link, and are clearly only attempting to do so to make the topic of theism relevant to this board.

 

But, I'll play along.

 

You clearly don't understand the position of atheism, nor that of agnosticism. Some atheists may assert that no god is possible, but that is a personal conviction, and is not a necessary tenant of atheism.

 

Agnosticism is not a position on the spectrum of theism; it's a separate axis, and most atheists would fit the description of agnostic atheists.

 

The atheist position is often a result of critical thinking, reason, and evidence-based expectations. To me, that doesn't sound like a bad thing to have in a pilot.

[Counterrotate]

Bob, you say:

 

"Atheists, by definition, cannot do this. By saying, “THERE IS NO GOD!” the atheist is announcing to the world that his/her thinking is incredibly limited, that his/her field of view quite narrow and restrictive."

 

Nothing could be farther from the truth. In fact, I would say the opposite is true. Atheist thinking is incredibly open and our field of view unlimited, as is our capability for figuring things out based on the observations we make. Atheists are currently unraveling the history of the universe by observing what we see with our own eyes while Religions demand that we accept their particular brand of reality based on pure faith and faith alone. So, who has the narrow and restrictive view?

 

The rest of this I just shrug off. If every time I had a near miss I attributed it to god looking out for me, I would be remiss. You are insinuating that atheists are dangerous because they do not have anyone to "pray" to? Well, let me ask you, what is going to help you out of a pickle... "Oh god oh god oh god...." Or... "Ok... that was bad... THINK! How can I get myself out of this". I suspect that a theist and an atheist will likely go through the same ass-saving process at that time, the only difference being that the theist will likely attribute their survival to god after the fact. I am a firm believer in positive thinking. If you think you can get through something, most of the time, you will. This is not prayer, though I believe prayer yields similar results, just not because of anything divine. Someday, if religion does not destroy humanity before we get there, mankind will understand things that we currently don't, like maybe the power of the mind to overcome incredible odds. Religion hides in the shadows of the known. There is what we know, and everything else we don't know must be because of god. As we push our knowledge further and further and come to understand what is really happening around us, the realm that god lives in shrinks, and shrinks, and shrinks.

 

 

I can kind of understand religion. It provides a comforting bedtime story to keep you from laying awake and wondering. It's that same warm feeling you got as a kid when you were with your parents, knowing that someone is there to take care of you.

 

But we are grown ups now. No one is there to take care of us, except for those with which we have built relationships of mutual respect and love. And believing that there is an omnipotent and omniscient creator has a dangerous side effect: it relieves one of their responsibilities, especially where Christianity is concerned, because your sins have already been paid for. How many times I have seen this used as an excuse for the poorest behavior, I cannot count.

 

I know, and love, some very good Christian people. But at the same time, some of the most loathsome, vindictive, irresponsible, awful people I have ever met were also Christian, while (literally) every atheist I have ever met is a fine, upstanding, intelligent, and caring person.

 

You seem to be a good example of this. Your unabashed judgement and public slandering of one particular lady pilot exemplifies your Christian morality and narrow viewpoint.

 

As an atheist, I don't need your god to give me morals. I know I already have better and stronger morals than you do. I don't need your god to be a safe pilot either. I use rationality and positive thinking to provide the ingenuity I need to make good decisions. You love to talk about how much of a drinker you are, and have regaled us with stories of being up at the crack of dawn, still under the influence of your precious booz, and ready to climb into an aircraft and go fly. Is it the thought that god will look out for you that lets you justify this as OK? I don't need your god to explain the unexplainable around me either, I know that there is a rational and logical explanation even if it is not known yet. Time and time again this has been proven, from magnetism to quantum mechanics. I don't see your god. I don't feel your god. And you ranting about your god and how much I need him only makes me want to have less to do with him. After all, if I believe in god like you do, won't that make me more like you?

 

I shudder at the thought....

[Nearly Retired]

AAARRRGGGHHH! Some of you are just...just...

 

Why do people confuse religion and a belief in a Creator? Over and over and over I make the distinction between religion and faith. I believe in a Creator, not because it says so in the Bible, but because of what I see, feel and think. Yes, think.

 

I'm not trying to force you to believe in a Creator. You can believe or not believe, I...don't...care. What I'm getting at is the thought process. If a person cannot allow for even the possibility of the existence of a Creator, then I don't want them working for me. Because it displays a horrible flaw in their thinking. In fact, it displays a total lack of critical thinking which would make them a substandard pilot in my opinion. Atheists "think too much?" Heh. Hardly.

 

While I believe in a Creator, I don't expect a "hand from heaven" to bail me out of situations. But I'd be lying if I said that I've *never* been the happy recipient of divine intervention. You know...that's when something happens that is just too, too coincidental for words...something where you go, "Heyyyyy, wait a minute..." I realize that there are things...forces of the universe that we can never hope to understand. Given that, I choose to believe that this universe was deliberately created. By a Creator. I don't need a book to tell me that.

 

You believe whatever you want. But if you come to me for a job and tell me that a Creator DOES NOT EXIST because it cannot be proven by "science" then I will tell you, "Thanks for playing... Next!"

 

EDIT: Counterrotate, you are so full of sh*t it's almost unbelievable. I really wish you'd stop bringing religion into this discussion. Oh, and EVERY atheist you've ever met is a fine, upstanding, intelligent, caring person? Yeah, right. Sure. Tell me another one. And how many do you know, three?

 

But even if that were true, it wouldn't make a case for atheism, just as you cannot criticize Christianity by the behavior of so-called Christians. People are human, dude.

 

And as we push our knowledge, the realm that the Creator lives in does not shrink - not at all. Just the opposite: It expands as we realize that with the Creator all things are possible. The older I get...the more I learn...the more I realize that it is the power of the Creator that has gotten us to where we are today.

 

Oh and by the way, it is YOU who needs to review the definition of atheism and agnoticism, not me. Agnostics allow for the existence of a Creator; Atheists deny it. Don't try to change the terms to suit your own position. If you call yourself an atheist then you deny the Creator...reject the existence of a Creator. It is an extreme, narrow, and uneducated view.

[terminal_velo]

Faith is a kind of a complicated word, but if you're talking about faith in the sense that you believe something despite the lack of evidence, it's inane to think that faith makes someone a superior pilot to someone who does not have faith.

 

There really is no way for you to make a sensible argument for your position when you're entire premise is based on ignorance.

[Counterrotate]

AAARRRGGGHHH! Some of you are just...just...

 

Why do people confuse religion and a belief in a Creator? Over and over and over I make the distinction between religion and faith. I believe in a Creator, not because it says so in the Bible, but because of what I see, feel and think. Yes, think.

 

I'm not trying to force you to believe in a Creator. You can believe or not believe, I...don't...care. What I'm getting at is the thought process. If a person cannot allow for even the possibility of the existence of a Creator, then I don't want them working for me. Because it displays a horrible flaw in their thinking. In fact, it displays a total lack of critical thinking which would make them a substandard pilot in my opinion. Atheists "think too much?" Heh. Hardly.

 

While I believe in a Creator, I don't expect a "hand from heaven" to bail me out of situations. But I'd be lying if I said that I've *never* been the happy recipient of divine intervention. You know...that's when something happens that is just too, too coincidental for words...something where you go, "Heyyyyy, wait a minute..." I realize that there are things...forces of the universe that we can never hope to understand. Given that, I choose to believe that this universe was deliberately created. By a Creator. I don't need a book to tell me that.

 

You believe whatever you want. But if you come to me for a job and tell me that a Creator DOES NOT EXIST because it cannot be proven by "science" then I will tell you, "Thanks for playing... Next!"

So is this your screening process? Do you ask pilots that come to work for Golden Wings if they believe in a creator? Is that requirement for employment?

 

 

Besides, no atheist would be an atheist if they, at some point, saw tangible, irrefutable evidence that there was a creator. If such happens, my own paradigm would force me to believe it. It's how we work. The flipside to that coin is that we don't believe what we don't see or understand.

 

Your justification for there being a creator is that you have had some hair raising coincidences happen to you. I think we all have. The difference between you and I is that you attribute it to an entity and I attribute it to the unknown. Where I have a black hole of unexplained events, you put up a pretty picture. I don't blame you. that black hole can be scary! And it's so much nicer to think that there might be some friendly creator out there who is looking out for you. But I don't believe that. The thought creates many more problems than it solves, and there is simply no evidence for it. We have looked far and wide. Where is this creator? The typical answer to that question is "in your heart". An antiquated phrase dating back to when people believed that your heart was actually your brain, and also held your soul. The more accurate answer would be "in your brain". Exactly. It's in your brain. Your imagination created it to explain an uncomfortable unknown. And... that's ok with me too. But you starting this entire thread about how being an atheist makes you a dangerous pilot... well, once again, you opened yourself up wide for an argument.

[Shaun]

This thread sure is something.

[DieselBoy]

.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2013 by DieselBoy

[rotormandan]

Ditto.^^^^ Your post spews closed minded. That doesn't really help your cause.

[pilot#476398]

OOOOOH goody, another one! I guess I'm not the only one craving for something different after this week of military dominance of the forum!

 

So tell me NR, do you allow for the possibility that there is no creator?

[aeroscout]

I have seen some who were so vocal about the next life, that they were of no use in this life.

I admire the Amish for their steadfast beliefs and putting them into practice. But almost by definition an Amish pilot would be a dangerous combination.

I have seen many fellow pilots who were somewhere on the spectrum of agnostic to atheist, but would only mention it in passing in conversation if they were directly asked.

They were pilots whom I trusted my life in their hands. I don't think my trust in them was misplaced. Then on rare occasion I have seen some top notch pilots who put their faith into practice and seemed to balance both wonderfully.

I usually agree with Nearly Retired, but in this case I would lean towards not being able to support his opinion.

 

 

edit m

Edited September 30, 2013 by aeroscout

[terminal_velo]

OOOOOH goody, another one! I guess I'm not the only one craving for something different after this week of military dominance of the forum!

 

So tell me NR, do you allow for the possibility that there is no creator?

 

Just FYI, if you use the View New Content page, on the bottom of the leftside menu you can filter out forums that you don't care to read about. I have all of them selected except the military one. Makes it a lot easier to use.

[terminal_velo]

I have seen many fellow pilots who were somewhere on the spectrum of agnostic to atheist

 

Just to clarify, because this is a common misconception, agosticism and atheism aren't on the same spectrum. You're either a theist or an atheist, there is no in between. Gnosticism/agnosticism measures something different.

[pilot#476398]

 

Just FYI, if you use the View New Content page, on the bottom of the leftside menu you can filter out forums that you don't care to read about. I have all of them selected except the military one. Makes it a lot easier to use.

 

I just go to the Home page and then the Content Spy at the bottom of threads. It just seemed like all the civilian guys went on vacation this past week or so?

[aeroscout]

 

Just to clarify, because this is a common misconception, agosticism and atheism aren't on the same spectrum. You're either a theist or an atheist, there is no in between. Gnosticism/agnosticism measures something different.

I am tempted to say something sarcastic, but sincerely, you didn't clarify anything for me. But thanks for trying.

[pilot#476398]

For what its worth I may as well ask. If there is a creator where did he come from? Another universe?, but then who created it? Who created the creator, and who created the creator of the creator?

 

No matter which way you look at it, science/creationism, they just raise more questions?

[Counterrotate]

For what its worth I may as well ask. If there is a creator where did he come from? Another universe?, but then who created it? Who created the creator, and who created the creator of the creator?

 

No matter which way you look at it, science/creationism, they just raise more questions?

What came first, the chicken or the egg. Had a debate with a good Christian friend of mine about this one day. We went round and round. He posited that something can't come from nothing, therefore, there had to be a creator. My counter argument was that saying there is a creator to create the something from nothing means that the creator (something) was here before (nothing). Hence, something from nothing. His counter argument to that was that God had ALWAYS been there, therefore, there was never nothing. You could just as easily say that the universe and all the matter in it has always been here as well, and therefore didn't need creating.

[aeroscout]

Polemics.

[rotormandan]

 

 

So tell me NR, do you allow for the possibility that there is no creator?

Good question

[terminal_velo]

I am tempted to say something sarcastic, but sincerely, you didn't clarify anything for me. But thanks for trying.

 

Heh. Sorry. Maybe I should have said "differentiate" instead of "clarify". But, here we go, I will actually try to clarify a little bit.

 

Theism is a matter of belief. If you believe in some god(s), you are a theist. If you do not hold this belief, you are an atheist. Atheism is simply the lack of theism. It's one or the other, you hold the belief or you do not hold the belief. Babies are atheists (and 1 point to Bob, they're also terrible pilots).

 

Gnosticism, on the other hand, is about knowing. As it relates to theism, it addresses the question of whether or not we can actually know the nature of god(s). I think most people (theist or atheist) would agree that you simply can't know the nature of something that is metaphysical, non-detectable, and dependent on faith.

 

Gnosticism is kind of a complicated subject though. "Knowing" has different meanings in different contexts, so the label of gnosticism/agnosticism can vary a little bit. Generally though, people aren't that interested in each other's gnosticism but rather the justification for their theism.

 

Does this help?

[pilot#476398]

So many "isms"! These threads always remind me of one of my favorite South Park episodes!

[Falko]

I believe in checklists, will I still get hired ?