Future of helicopter pilots in general (Any Thoughts)

[Ardo09203]

 

You well and truly do not have a clue. My military was well before MANPADs, stop-losses, extended tours in places that would have to have major renovations to be the crotch, much less the arm-pit of the world... Comparitively speaking, "the getting shot at" part is not so bad, although one might spend the rest of one's life dealing with that. You're not always the coal mine donkey, but that's so often enough that it's cliche. Did you know that it's possible to sleep running? Clueless you are, entire and complete. Ramen years don't even smear that chalk.

 

Also, my experience in the Gulf of Mexico (13 years) had some really good days, but I think you're ignortant of that phase of the industry too. Unless the term "gravy 14 and 14" refers to pilot sweat...

 

I don't mean to be rude but, What? Was that supposed to be some sort of rant, or did you just pop in to call me clueless and ignorant? I mean no disrespect, I am just having a hard time trying to interpret your point? Guess I really am clueless.

[I3uller]

Ya I'm a little lost too there Ardo.

[SBuzzkill]

Well Buzz pretty much hit it above. I'll add a few things and give you history of how things changed in recent years. Disclaimer: these are my observations and some of this might be a localized condition.

 

First, everyone knows that warrants are technical and tactical experts in their field. In order to do that you need to be in a position to fly a lot with little distraction. When I was a WO1 this was generally the case. Obviously we had additional duties but nothing extreme. My PLs sacrificed their flying time so us warrants could build hours and become PCs. My company commanders weren't PCs and they didn't care because their job was to run a company and you don't need PC to do that. Besides, they were still AMCs without being a PC anyway. All of this was just after 9/11. Flying was plentiful and since we were deployed all the time, the additional nonsense was kept to a minimum.

 

First sign of things changing was in 2004 when the Army took away our insignia (Rising Eagle) and replaced it with our aviation branch insignia that commissioned wear. To me it wasn't a big deal but others looked at is as writing on the wall in that the Army's goal was to integrate warrants more with traditional commissioned duties. Part of that was getting rid of WOBC and combining both warrants and commissioned into BOLC.

 

A few years later around 2007-2008 senior Army Aviation leadership changed the Commanders Guide (411). I distinctly remember reading an article by Gen Cody wanting to get his junior commissioned guys more experience. So, what they did was make it a required for 2Lts out of flight school to be immediately integrated into a FAC1 flying position. Before that they'd show up and get stuffed into BTL or BDE in some admin FAC2 position and never fly. Funny thing about this new rule was our MTOE just doesn't support that many FAC 1 spots especially since they were sending soo many students through flight school at the time.

 

Second thing was company commanders were no longer allowed to serve as a PI the whole time. They were required to get PC within 6 mths of assuming command. Along with that it was highly encouraged for AMCs to be PCs...actually a good thing.

 

What does all that mean for warrants? Well now you have more competition for flight time. In my last unit for instance, one of our BTLs had a "flying club" going on. This is a good ole boy system where the commissioned had abused their position to bump warrants to get flight time. They were signing off guys who barely met the mins while the warrants were sitting around doing nothing. I witnessed commissioned guys bumping warrants to go on high level missions to get recognition. This concept was basically a paradigm shift from their traditional roles as PLs and staff positions. I witnessed far more additional duties and schools being put on the backs of warrants and even duties of a PL being "delegated" down to warrants.

 

The problem with all this? The commisioned guys who were getting PC were useless because they didnt have the experience to be on any real challenging mission and it wouldn't be long were they would be sent somewhere else (career course) anyway. Now you have a shortage of warrant PCs and a lack of warrant experience. I also saw a shift in traditional BTL tasks being pawned off to the companys. Instead of BTL S3 leading an aircrew coordination brief, they just had the companys do all the hard work and then sharp shoot the product that they had no hand in anyway. As a senior SP and on one step on the "retirement bus" I was concerned but there was nothing I could do about it.

 

So that's what I mean about the lines getting blurred between the both. Like I said these were my experiences and could just be localized. I don't care though. I still have my pickle suit, my squashed bug and my purple hat from flight school. No one can take those away.

 

I had a big rant typed out about flying clubs and my current situation but I'm not going to go there. Ha! Everything you've written there is accurate and not localized. It's very frustrating, even while deployed.

[AW1985]

I too had a long rant, but like Buzz decided against it. Everything I wanted to post was put more eloquently above. Please, with everything, take it for what you will:

 

I will tell you being a Warrant is not what I had witnessed during my enlisted career, and I feel the writing is on the wall concerning the future. I love to fly, I feel like we all do, but if I could go back to ATC, I would.

 

You truly are a WO1 Private and I've cleaned toilets while witnessing the junior enlisted walk around with coffee in their hands..

 

I have invested more time in my additional duty then I will in a cockpit. I get my real flying hours on the weekend, instructing fixed wing or splitting time with a buddy.

 

I love the Army, I love Army aviation, but it isn't all roses and unicorns. It's just not what you think about when you look up and see that aggressive -60,-47 approach when you were dreaming about being a pilot.

 

If you have the money, and the resources go guard or civilian. In the end, do what you want. Even active duty has it's days of glory...they just seem fewer between now-a-days.

[Joe_P148]

@SBuzzKill

 

They want us to maintain proficiency and do our additional duties but I think one of the major problems is the definition of Proficiency.

 

Rote memorizing all the random crap that Army Aviation has deemed as "important" doesn't really make sense. As a Senior PC in the company I would often stumble across to junior PI's arguing over the absolute dumbest things. The parts of the goggles, The parts of the electrical system, random idiotic stump the chump questions.

 

Then, I would ask them a question about airspace, TACSOP, duty limits, briefings or an EP or a power management question and they would look at me like I had a dick growing out of my forehead.

 

I truly believe that Junior aviators have a lack of direction when it comes to aviator knowledge and studying. The PC's in units have failed to really show junior pilots what is important to know and what to put on the back burner. I would see a guy spending hours learning the parts of the eye but he couldn't even tell me the inbound outbound corridors of the airfield. This is compounded even further as the Army sends our junior aviators to IPC without having them move around the Army and see different ways of doing things.

 

Add this way of thinking with mandatory PT and additional duties and yes, you're right people are gonna have a hard time getting promoted.

 

The way I see it is people should be studying at home and aviator proficiency is a standard, if it can't be maintained than that person shouldn't be RL1, There is no reason to be studying around work as we all know that just turns into pilot's debating and then shootin the sh*t.

 

@AW1985

 

This is just the way it is as a new guy. You're a WO1 brotha. Give it some time, keep working hard and once you make PC things will change.

 

I think people's expectations of what a warrant officer's life is like has always been misinterpreted.

 

As an enlisted person you saw the cool laid back warrant but the you didn't realize all the additional things that they had to do and all the information they had to know.

 

That is why you get paid as a WO1 and not an E-4 - E-7 rank.

 

Everyone goes through a rough time as a WO1 and even as a CW2, It wouldn't be the military if they just handed you everything.

 

Look at Navy and Airforce guys, sure they aren't cleaning toilets but they aren't flying like us either and they ultimately will be in a non flying slot whereas we can ride a line position out for a looong time.

[SBuzzkill]

I'm with you on that. One of the strengths of my troop has been that nobody has ever stressed knowing the stupid stuff. The questions we got asked during and after progression were of some importance to doing our mission. The first things I was told to memorize were the airfield layout, the checkpoints around the admin route, and who I was going to be talking to on the radio. From there it turned into things like how I was going to set up an illum shot or a homework assignment talking to all the PCs about their thoughts on TTPs for different subjects. I learned a ton in my first year with the troop that I think a lot of guys in other troops missed out on while they were busy memorizing the dumb stuff.

 

As for the no studying at work thing. You are right about it usually turning into a bunch of guys shooting the sh*t.

Edited October 6, 2013 by SBuzzkill

[Joe_P148]

1st step on setting up illum, ensure you actually are firing illum and not HE or flechettes

 

I had an interesting RP inbound in Afghanistan w/ a 58 crew who decided to shoot some HE in the air.

[SBuzzkill]

Yes indeed, ha! It always runs through your mind when the illum doesn't deploy. Then there is a sigh of relief when you look over at the pod and the correct rocket is missing.

Edited October 6, 2013 by SBuzzkill

[Hotdogs]

Do Kiowa's have smart pods? or do you guys mix load your LAU-68/131s?

[akscott60]

We can select zone A or B. There 3 tubes in B and 4 in A. We then tell the computer what rocket is loaded, what steering cue is to be based off of (NAV, laser or manual) and what fusing is based off of.

[redpatcher]

While I'm not an Army Aviator, YET, I'll throw in my 2 cents as an enlisted Marine. The military is a bunch of BS where ever you go, what ever your pay rate is and whatever branch you're in. My CO once said to me "If my Marines aren't complaining about something, I know something is very wrong" To all the hopefuls, take this all with a large grain of salt. I know its going to suck, but you know what? At the end of the day I get to fly a freakin helicopter, isn't that what its all about?

[UH60L-IP]

At the end of the day I get to fly a freakin helicopter, isn't that what its all about?

 

No, that's kind of the point that people are trying to make. At the end of the day that is not what it is all about.

 

That is coming from someone that is in the air 3-4 hours per day, 5 days per week, while on active duty. I like my job, in fact I like it a lot, but no, flying helicopters is not what it's all about.

[redpatcher]

Sir, I do get that. I know I am still naive, maybe a bit too optimistic about aviation. Am I jaded about the Corps? Admittedly yes, its not what the recruiter posters said it would be. Will I probably end up with a similar taste in my mouth 10 years down the road for aviation? Possibly. But in the meantime, I'm going to be so damn optimistic it burns haha.

[Ardo09203]

While I'm not an Army Aviator, YET, I'll throw in my 2 cents as an enlisted Marine. The military is a bunch of BS where ever you go, what ever your pay rate is and whatever branch you're in. My CO once said to me "If my Marines aren't complaining about something, I know something is very wrong" To all the hopefuls, take this all with a large grain of salt. I know its going to suck, but you know what? At the end of the day I get to fly a freakin helicopter, isn't that what its all about?

 

That's what my page long rant in the first post is all about! I think we have the same views towards army aviation.

[Joe_P148]

All the writing and bitching from the warrants in this forum isn't going to change your mind anyways, you wouldn't be a strong candidate for wocs if it did.

 

All I can say is...

 

You'll see for yourself, make the most of it and good luck.

 

Just don't get cocky and think because you have wings on your chest that you are some kind of god.

 

You are a overpaid taxi driver.

[I3uller]

If you drive 60s, yes. Now if you drive 58s, you truly are a god and are authorized to act accordingly.

[Velocity173]

All of us had the same bright eyed optimism that you all have prior to coming in. When I got accepted and hung up the phone with the recruiter I let out a yell! We've all been in your shoes. We're just trying to give you a realistic picture of what it's like.

 

Think of it this way. When you look at a unit it is heavy with CW2s. As you go up in rank there are less of the senior guys around. Why is that? Because a lot of people get out after their first 6 yr obligation. If they didn't the rank structure would be top heavy and you'd have huge CW5 retirement formations. Those of you who are coming from enlisted, how many that you know stick it out til retirement? Not many. Same situation here. But life is better than enlisted right? In some ways yes, in others, no.

 

I wanted to fly helicopters in the Army ever since I was a kid when the local NG unit would fly them up to my high school. It took awhile but I finally got and attained my dream of flying in the Army. After doing it for a few years, it becomes a job. We all have good days and bad days. There isn't much status or recognition that goes with it. Sure we make some cool vids and people outside Army Aviation circles think we've got it made but at the end of the day it's taking care of business and doing a job.

 

We all have pride in being Army Aviators and being a part of history. That goes without saying. We just don't walk around with stupid grins on our faces everyday because we're glad to be in the Army. You could say things could be worse but you know what, things could be a whole lot better too.

 

Read the thread on Baseops titled Army Aviation vs Air Force Aviation. Good insights from guys who jumped ship to go AF or CG. At one time I heard the CG was made up of 75 % former Army. I had probably a dozen warrant friends leave the Army to go fly in the AF. Never once met a pilot who did it the other way around. Well I take that back, I did meet Mike Novosel once.

Edited October 7, 2013 by Velocity173

[Velocity173]

I think it's safe to say that the people that I knew who did 6 and went elsewhere, don't regret going in the Army. They found a better path but without the Army they never would have qualified for that route.

[smalltownguy]

Look folks, at the end of the day it's all about your own mental attitude. The "bad stuff" everyone talks about is present in any job and when you work, or in my case deploy, with people that only talk about the parts they don't love... then hatred for a job spreads like virus. It has been this way for many years, especially in aviation. Jet pilot A wants to fly low in helicopter B, helicopter pilot B wants to do aileron rolls in jet A.... FedEx captain wishes he worked for UPS.... Delta guy hears Southwest is awesome. At the end of the day, as corny as this may sound, be as positive as you can and beat in to people's head all the sweet parts of the job... eventually, with enough positive people around, everyone in other flight gigs will be jumping ship for the Army. But if that day never comes, you just have to mentally tell yourself that you are happy... even if you make less money and only get one hour of stick time for every 10 shitters you clean... Life is what YOU make it, now cheer the hell up and have some fun!

[redpatcher]

Look folks, at the end of the day it's all about your own mental attitude. The "bad stuff" everyone talks about is present in any job and when you work, or in my case deploy, with people that only talk about the parts they don't love... then hatred for a job spreads like virus. It has been this way for many years, especially in aviation. Jet pilot A wants to fly low in helicopter B, helicopter pilot B wants to do aileron rolls in jet A.... FedEx captain wishes he worked for UPS.... Delta guy hears Southwest is awesome. At the end of the day, as corny as this may sound, be as positive as you can and beat in to people's head all the sweet parts of the job... eventually, with enough positive people around, everyone in other flight gigs will be jumping ship for the Army. But if that day never comes, you just have to mentally tell yourself that you are happy... even if you make less money and only get one hour of stick time for every 10 shitters you clean... Life is what YOU make it, now cheer the hell up and have some fun!

I feel like this should be a youtube moto video haha

[Lindsey]

I feel like this should be a youtube moto video haha

 

You know how I know you're a Marine?

[I3uller]

Here here small town. I really hope your path to WOCS comes to fruition and we can run into each other at some point.

[redpatcher]

 

You know how I know you're a Marine?

 

I'm assuming its because I throw the word moto around too often. Its just so damn.. motivating. haha

[Lindsey]

 

I'm assuming its because I throw the word moto around too often. Its just so damn.. motivating. haha

 

Technically it should be "moti" not "moto" then. Little less motivating, eh?

[redpatcher]

 

Technically it should be "moti" not "moto" then. Little less motivating, eh?

 

You're toying with years of Marine Corps tradition Lindsey...