building turbine time in experimental??

[Spike]

lots of stick time dosnt mean anything.....

 

This is correct. Stick time doesn’t meaning anything simply because anyone can do it. However, when things go bad is where the rubber meets the road…..

 

As a pro, you’re not paid just to fly around fat, dumb and happy. You’re paid to save everything and everyone when things go bad. With that said; how many 1200 hour private pilots forced emergency procedures on unsuspecting pilots? How many 1200 hour private pilots had to recover the aircraft from a bad condition in order to save everything and everyone? IMO, when things go bad, I want a pilot who has “been there and done that”…..

 

Captain "Sully" Sullenberger said; “experience matters”….

 

Experience isn’t just the number of hours in a book. It’s what was done during those hours that matters……

 

Edited October 27, 2013 by Spike

[richeh123]

 

Tell him to go with the mosquito. Not to help him get a job, but to avoid killing some poor 10 hour student who trusted he had more than a passenger sitting next to him.

ok....I should not have said " a cfi is just a passenger " seems to be upsetting people! we all know its more then that! but in my experience....after 20 hrs....maybe a little more with other students there isn't a lot of actual flying time for the cfi....yes a good cfi is ready at all times because the person sitting next to you is trying to kill you! then the student moves into the commercial world.....there is almost no flying for the cfi. with all this being said....I believe everyone should go the cfi route...and try and get as much stick time as you can....where you can....without taking it from the student who is trying to learn!

[d10]

Where does it say that general aviation includes commercial aviation?

 

FAA Pilot/Controller Glossary:

 

GENERAL AVIATION- That portion of civil aviation which encompasses all facets of aviation except air carriers holding a certificate of public convenience and necessity from the Civil Aeronautics Board and large aircraft commercial operators.

(See ICAO term GENERAL AVIATION.)

GENERAL AVIATION [iCAO]- All civil aviation operations other than scheduled air services and nonscheduled air transport operations for remuneration or hire.

[heligirl03]

In my experience being involved in the hiring process of 1000hr pilots, said operators are not seeking candidates with particular skills. At that point you essentially have no quantifiable skills to offer and they mostly prefer it that way...you are a clean slate. They are evaluating you for your judgement (ADM), teachability, and department cultural fit, expecting you to grow into the position professionally under tutelage. Having recently instructed a whole slew of 1000hr new hires through aircraft transitions (see turbine transition thread) I reflect that those who built their time as CFIs are noticeably quicker to master the new aircraft particularly with respect to their understanding and satisfactory performance of EPs. I was certainly not the first person to identify this and it seems due to their repetitive demonstration, correction, and explanation of these maneuvers to student pilots for 800+ hrs versus the recreational or purely commercial pilot who does not have the luxury to practice supervised (correct) EPs on a daily basis. As far as recreational versus commercial flying for 800+hrs (and please don't split hairs by reminding me that CFIs are commercial pilots, that is understood and I would expect anyone here can identify the distinction I am making), commercial pilots are expected to have been trained, supervised, and held to a higher standard of performance by their employer. Yes, there will be exceptions. However with such a large pool of data to draw on, the trends become clear. And when leafing through stacks of resumes, it's an anecdotal trend that will very likely leave your résumé in the round file. Why play with those odds at the expense of your own experience? Doesn't seem logical after already investing so much time and $$ in yourself. Even though it's the norm these days, being a maximally qualified and experienced (it's all relative) RW CFI/I has still opened several opportunities for me that otherwise would have been faaaaaaar less likely, and one built on another and another and so on. It probably doesn't hurt that I truly enjoy teaching, but I haven't done any flying that I haven't enjoyed so who's to say. FWIW, I am currently not teaching, lol. I am in a new aircraft and it wouldn't make sense. But I would love to teach in it when I've been in it for awhile and actually have something to offer!

[pilot#476398]

 

FAA Pilot/Controller Glossary:

 

 

I keep forgetting about that thing!

[pilot#476398]

In my experience being involved in the hiring process of 1000hr pilots, said operators are not seeking candidates with particular skills. At that point you essentially have no quantifiable skills to offer and they mostly prefer it that way...you are a clean slate. They are evaluating you for your judgement (ADM), teachability, and department cultural fit, expecting you to grow into the position professionally under tutelage. Having recently instructed a whole slew of 1000hr new hires through aircraft transitions (see turbine transition thread) I reflect that those who built their time as CFIs are noticeably quicker to master the new aircraft particularly with respect to their understanding and satisfactory performance of EPs. I was certainly not the first person to identify this and it seems due to their repetitive demonstration, correction, and explanation of these maneuvers to student pilots for 800+ hrs versus the recreational or purely commercial pilot who does not have the luxury to practice supervised (correct) EPs on a daily basis. As far as recreational versus commercial flying for 800+hrs (and please don't split hairs by reminding me that CFIs are commercial pilots, that is understood and I would expect anyone here can identify the distinction I am making), commercial pilots are expected to have been trained, supervised, and held to a higher standard of performance by their employer. Yes, there will be exceptions. However with such a large pool of data to draw on, the trends become clear. And when leafing through stacks of resumes, it's an anecdotal trend that will very likely leave your résumé in the round file. Why play with those odds at the expense of your own experience? Doesn't seem logical after already investing so much time and $$ in yourself. Even though it's the norm these days, being a maximally qualified and experienced (it's all relative) RW CFI/I has still opened several opportunities for me that otherwise would have been faaaaaaar less likely, and one built on another and another and so on. It probably doesn't hurt that I truly enjoy teaching, but I haven't done any flying that I haven't enjoyed so who's to say. FWIW, I am currently not teaching, lol. I am in a new aircraft and it wouldn't make sense. But I would love to teach in it when I've been in it for awhile and actually have something to offer!

 

Any experience evaluating guys who went the Old City route of R44 tours, or Boatpix photos instead of teaching?

[heligirl03]

All of those are examples of the pure commercial work comparisons I made above. I know pilots who have succeeded doing all of them, but the statistics are by far and away skewed against this probability, especially if you are at all questionable on the less tangible qualifications like personality or judgement.

[pilot#476398]

..., especially if you are at all questionable on the less tangible qualifications like personality or judgement.

 

Well, that could be anyone!

[Flying Pig]

The deal with flying on your own vs working for a school is that a future employer has another employer in the industry they can go to for a recommendation, verification of your claims, work history. Sure... they could go to your employer wherever you work regardless, but talking to people who are "like minded" and speak aviation talk is important.

 

Early on in a persons flying career I think its important to have guidance, mentorship, added responsibility as your progress in your demonstrated abilities. Flight School owners know their CFIs are going to move on.

 

Probably not so much on the helicopter side because of the cost, but for those of us who are fixed wing pilots, I think many of us could blow people away with stories about flying with "high time private pilots". Guys who have a private or maybe a long since lapsed IFR rating and 2500hrs gained over the past 20 years. Ohhhhh man! Lets just say, because of those experiences, I dont fly with pilots I dont know unless I know where they come from or I have access to the controls. I once had to talk a pilot through a landing into Tahoe from the backseat. That wasnt fun. This pilot had a Commercial and Instrument rating. After we chatted, I learned her 1600hrs had been accumulated over about 25yrs. Thats not experience.

 

A person thinking they have found a way to circumvent the verifiable experience route by walking into an interview with a log book full of 1200hrs of "turbine" helicycle time shows a complete misunderstanding of what experience means.

 

Entry level CFIs dont necessarily get to fly with experienced pilots day in and day out, but every time they send a student off for a check ride, that DPE is indirectly evaluating that CFIs abilities. And if things dont go well..... that DPE will directly evaluate that CFI at a later date! So if a CFI is consistently sending out a good products, chances are, they are building a solid foundation as a pilot and a happy boss. Future bosses like happy former bosses.

Edited October 28, 2013 by Flying Pig

[aeroscout]

^That last line was a good catch phrase.

[Flying Pig]

Its being copyrighted. Copy it now before I make it mine! I did go back and add a blurb about flying with an "experienced pilot".

Edited October 28, 2013 by Flying Pig

[pilot#476398]

If I were him I'd go for it!

 

Look at it this way. If you pass the interview they obviously like you. If you make it through their training program then you've proved yourself to be safe and profficient enough to do the job! (even CFIs washout during training!)

 

If no turbine operator will look at you, then try R44 operators! If they won't take you, get your CFI and get on with a flight school! If flight schools won't take you, well...

 

You still have that helicycle to keep you flying wherever and whenever you want,...that's livin' the dream!

[Spike]

If I were him I'd go for it!

 

Why you’re at it, tell him he’ll make a boatload of cash and be flying heavy iron within a few months…….

 

Either way, some people who want to do this, will never do this, just by making one bad decision……..

 

There are no shortcuts and when hopefuls gamble, they usually lose.

 

Edited October 28, 2013 by Spike

[Flying Pig]

If I were him I'd go for it!

 

Look at it this way. If you pass the interview they obviously like you. If you make it through their training program then you've proved yourself to be safe and profficient enough to do the job! (even CFIs washout during training!)

 

If no turbine operator will look at you, then try R44 operators! If they won't take you, get your CFI and get on with a flight school! If flight schools won't take you, well...

 

You still have that helicycle to keep you flying wherever and whenever you want,...that's livin' the dream!

 

Pilot476398.....

 

I cant help but to feel compelled to point this out. A few posts ago you learned for the first time what "general aviation" meant and now you are giving people potentially very expensive advice on the best way to break into the aviation industry? Im not the know it all of aviation thats for sure. But it made me chuckle.

 

You say "Go for it" after several others who can reasonably claim to say they have "arrived" to some extent or another in this industry caution highly against it. Did this route work for you? Do you know people doing it and being successful? Id say its a really bad and costly idea that could potentially set a guy back 10s of thousands of dollars and maybe even cause him to have to abandon his dream. You toss out, "...that's livin' the dream!" I didn't get the impression this person wanted to be stuck with this helicycle thing.

 

Me? I dont think that is living the dream. Im thinking if it doesnt work this guy is going to be really pissed off.

[pilot#476398]

I realize that having never looked up the definition of GA and assuming that it meant everything other than military and commercial was way out of line and probably makes me one of the more dangerous pilots out there who should never do this for a living!, but...

 

If flying a helicycle for another 600 hours doesn't get this guy a job somewhere, all he has to do is get his CFI and get in line like everyone else! I'm not sure why that would be a big deal? Its not like there's a shortage of pilots out there and he really needs to find the fastest way in!

 

Me, I would love to fly a helicycle around whenever and wherever I wanted! For me private ownership is the drean, not flying for someone else!

 

Oh' yeah, I never said it was the best way to beak into this industry! I just said if I were him I'd go for it! Who knows one day he could decide to buy an R44/R22 and just go into business for himself! I flown with three guys who have done that!

[Lindsey]

I realize that having never looked up the definition of GA and assuming that it meant everything other than military and commercial was way out of line and probably makes me one of the more dangerous pilots out there who should never do this for a living!, but...

 

If flying a helicycle for another 600 hours doesn't get this guy a job somewhere, all he has to do is get his CFI and get in line like everyone else! I'm not sure why that would be a big deal? Its not like there's a shortage of pilots out there and he really needs to find the fastest way in!

 

Me, I would love to fly a helicycle around whenever and wherever I wanted! For me private ownership is the drean, not flying for someone else!

 

Oh' yeah, I never said it was the best way to beak into this industry! I just said if I were him I'd go for it! Who knows one day he could decide to buy an R44/R22 and just go into business for himself! I flown with three guys who have done that!

 

 

Why does nearly every sentence you write end with an exclamation point? It's superfluous and makes you appear as if you're spitting into the wind.

 

That aside, it seems the only real reason you're telling him to go for the helicycle is because it's your dream. I'd imagine most people here would agree that that's a dream of theirs, to own their own helicopter one day. However, that wasn't the original question. He was asking how that would look to future employers, and you have many folks here involved in the hiring process saying that it doesn't look as good as having a CFI and using that license to learn for 1000 hours.

[Spike]

If flying a helicycle for another 600 hours doesn't get this guy a job somewhere, all he has to do is get his CFI and get in line like everyone else! I'm not sure why that would be a big deal? Its not like there's a shortage of pilots out there and he really needs to find the fastest way in!

 

Not a big deal eh?

 

Factor this: the cost of a Helicycle including maintenance and storing it over the 600 hours. The time required to build the 600 hours in the Helicycle. After building 600 hours, realizing the CFI certificate is the better path. The time and money now required to get the CFI, oh and add the instrument and II as well. Once completed, as you said, “get in line like everyone else” which by the way, everyone else for the most part will be recently graduated CFII’s who started their endeavor only months ago. All the while applying for the first job….

 

Maybe it’s not a big deal to you, but for someone who wants to do this for a living it would be a BIG DEAL and a monumental fail……..

 

BTW, the real big deal is; in order to get a job, you must be qualified for the job. This means, a perspective applicant should gain their qualifications ASAF’nP so when the moment comes, it won’t pass you by…….

 

Timing and momentum is just as important as networking and attitude…….

 

Edited October 28, 2013 by Spike

[Flying Pig]

I realize that having never looked up the definition of GA and assuming that it meant everything other than military and commercial was way out of line and probably makes me one of the more dangerous pilots out there who should never do this for a living!, but...

 

That wasnt the point. But it is a basic, entry level phrase that calls your experience into question. People make mistakes, but dont over exaggerate what I wrote to make what I said sound extreme. When I read your exchange about not knowing what the term meant, my first impression was "new guy". Take it for what its worth. Better you learn it here than during your interview.

Edited October 28, 2013 by Flying Pig

[pilot#476398]

That wasnt the point. But it is a basic, entry level phrase that calls your experience into question. People make mistakes, but dont over exaggerate what I wrote to make what I said sound extreme. When I read your exchange about not knowing what the term meant, my first impression was "new guy". Take it for what its worth. Better you learn it here than during your interview.

 

I was just being melodramatically sarcastic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (those are for Lindsey!)

[pilot#476398]

 

Not a big deal eh?

 

Factor this: the cost of a Helicycle including maintenance and storing it over the 600 hours. The time required to build the 600 hours in the Helicycle. After building 600 hours, realizing the CFI certificate is the better path. The time and money now required to get the CFI, oh and add the instrument and II as well. Once completed, as you said, “get in line like everyone else” which by the way, everyone else for the most part will be recently graduated CFII’s who started their endeavor only months ago. All the while applying for the first job….

 

Maybe it’s not a big deal to you, but for someone who wants to do this for a living it would be a BIG DEAL and a monumental fail……..

 

BTW, the real big deal is; in order to get a job, you must be qualified for the job. This means, a perspective applicant should gain their qualifications ASAF’nP so when the moment comes, it won’t pass you by…….

 

Timing and momentum is just as important as networking and attitude…….

 

 

In one response I believe it was said that he was considering getting both his CFI and the helicycle. It sounds like this guy either has plenty of money, or a really, really, good paying job!?

 

There are plenty of unemployed CFIIs out there from what I've read, so if this guy has another idea to help him get in, I still say go for it!

 

Post #14 seems like a good idea to me.

Edited October 28, 2013 by pilot#476398

[Spike]

 

In one response I believe it was said that he was considering getting both his CFI and the helicycle. It sounds like this guy either has plenty of money, or a really, really, good paying job!?

 

There are plenty of unemployed CFIIs out there from what I've read, so if this guy has another idea to help him get in, I still say go for it!

 

Post #14 seems like a good idea to me.

 

To be clear, my reply is based upon what you said….

 

In any case, either way, good job or plenty of money, purchasing a Helicycle won’t help him “get in”. In fact, if he does have money to burn, there are plenty of other, more valuable ways to posture himself to “get in”. And “get in” fosho. With that, there are lots of folks on this side of the fence who stated it’s not a good idea. Its assumed this advice is based on personal experience and not a belief in the unlikely….

 

IMO, it’s never a good idea to get financial advice from a homeless person…..

 

[aeroscout]

 

To be clear, my reply is based upon what you said….

 

In any case, either way, good job or plenty of money, purchasing a Helicycle won’t help him “get in”. In fact, if he does have money to burn, there are plenty of other, more valuable ways to posture himself to “get in”. And “get in” fosho. With that, there are lots of folks on this side of the fence who stated it’s not a good idea. Its assumed this advice is based on personal experience and not a belief in the unlikely….

 

IMO, it’s never a good idea to get financial advice from a homeless person…..

 

Or business advice from a business owner driving his/her business into bankruptcy.

 

 

For Lindsey: You asked about exclamation points...

 

 

 

"Get RID of the exclamation points...I HATE exclamation points" ! ! ! ! !...

[turbo]

ok! ok!

[avbug]

I've known a few pilots who got their initial experience in aircraft they owned. One was an active corporate pilot in Citations and Learjets. His dream was to fly helicopters. He went through six, I believe, pushing himself toward bankrupcy each time, but never able to take time away from his day job, to go back to instructing. He hoped for a dual-rated position somewhere. It was his holy grail. When I knew him, he was flying an Enstrom, using it every second he could, even commuting from home in it. Last I talked to him, he was flying a 222 doing medical work.

 

Another pilot I knew wanted to go the fixed wing route. He owned an RV-6, and had about a thousand hours in it. He wanted a job in a turbine single. I did some work for an operator in a turbine M18T Dromader, and was no longer able to do it; this guy wanted the job. We told him that he needed some conventional gear (tailwheel) time a little more substantial than his RV-6. He got a job in an AgTruck, towing gliders. He made though just slightly less than one tow, when he stacked up the operators only AgTruck on landing, destroying the airplane. A day later he showed up at our door, wanting the job in that Dromader. We pointed out that he'd just ruined a man's livelihood, and destroyed an airplane. His response was that it didn't really count, as he wasn't actually employed yet. It was just a tow before the man decided to hire him, so therefore not a big deal.

 

Of course he didn't get the job. He felt that his thousand hours in his own airplane fully prepared him to go do a commercial job, and he clearly wasn't the material we should put in the airplane. We weren't willing to risk the airplane or the company on someone like him. Personally, I'd have been a lot more interested if his experience hadn't been a thousand hours in his own airplane, but in one flown for someone else, because that would have told me something about his reliability when vetted by an employer. When showing up with that thousand hours in his own aircraft, he was self-promoted and self-recommended. That's a conflict of interest.

 

Owning an aircraft does require a certain amount of dedication, but there's no vetting process to be an owner. One can be a good owner or a bad owner, and the only person of accountability is self. If one works for someone else, one can be a good employee or bad employee, but that's reflected in comments by fellow employees, and by the employer himself. The employee had to prove himself to be there, and to stay there. He got operational experience in a commercial environment, which is very different than fueling up one's own ride and going where one wants and doing as one pleases with no one looking over your shoulder.

 

Being a flight instructor isn't necessary. I flew for five years commercially before I got my CFI and did some instructing. I didn't own an aircraft. I knew others who did. Bypassing or not instructing isn't the end of the world, though it's good experience. If a pilot is of the right character and caliber, not a problem. The real learning comes in the initial stages of one's first operating job as a commercial pilot, and there are no shortcuts for that. How one gets there, be it instructing or spending time in one's own ship, isn't nearly so important as how one prepares one's self, and how one conducts one's self once there.

[pilot#476398]

I've never really understood why anyone who could afford his own aircraft would want to work for someone else? I wouldn't!

 

I've never owned a helicopter, but so far I've found 4 different schools (none of whom trained me by the way) who have trusted me enough to rent to me their R22s/R44s. You'd think that trust would count for something, but I guess not? So far all I'm getting is "You're not experienced enough", or "I've hired non-CFIs before and all I got was bad habbits and hot dogging, so never again".,...and this is from people who hire 500 hour pilots to fly tours/ENG in R44s! Its not like I'm trying to jump right into HEMS!

 

I know I said in the beginning that I'd heard of a guy who flew a helicycle to 1000 hours then got hired flying tours in the ditch, but I'm beginning to think that's more of a myth?

 

Perhaps when I get to 1000 hours Papillon won't be as quick to judge and I'll at least get a chance at a job?,...they seemed freindly enough at Heliexpo.

Edited March 23, 2014 by pilot#476398