Skip that first tier job?

[troll.detector]

Well put together video, but from about 2 mins in he talks about having enough turbine hours to skip tour jobs etc:

 

 

What do you guys think? Is this realistic?

[crashed_05]

Most tour operators flying turbine helicopters require 1000+ hours...are you going to finish the program with 1500 - 2000 hours to skip tours and go right into the GOM or EMS...I don't think so. You're going to end up finishing the program and not be able to find a job because you'll have a few hundred hours at the most and its all turbine. Just maybe you get hired as an instructor AND they keep you around, you can continue building turbine time...but just remember, they can't employ every graduate of their curriculum. Anyone can put together a pretty video.

[troll.detector]

Yeah I'm already working and not a potential student, and I thought I knew the requirements for 2nd-tier jobs- just wondered if things have changed or if this guy is talking b.s. to sucker new students in?

Maybe we are missing something? Anyone else see how this could work?

[troll.detector]

Also he says (about 2:35) that they do a lot of EP training that you "won't get anywhere else". Why? Other flight schools and tour jobs don't give adequate EP training?? What does he mean do you think?

[Flying Pig]

That has to be the most misleading video I have ever seen.

 

What job is he talking about getting? Are they really trying to suggest that you will graduate with 200hrs and some turbine time and step righting into EMS, GOM and firefighting?

 

Heres some real world experience for you....... I have about 2900hr total. 1300turbine helicopter, 1000 of that is MD500E, the rest is Jet Rangers and about 45 in Hueys. I only have about 45hrs in piston S300s and of that, 10hrs are in a Robinson and the rest fixed wing. Im a dual rated CFI, over 500hrs NVG, 90 IFR, 900 cross country, 300 mountain, 600+ night, Ive been an LE pilot for a couple years now. Ive long lined decently, Ive put cops down through the trees on a 100' line in a 500E up in the mountains during weed season.
Wow huh? Not really. Ive checked with several flight schools in 2 states about teaching part time. Do you want to know what everyone of them asks me? "How much Robbie time do you have?" Ive talked to a couple EMS operators about some options and guess what they say? "Man,.,.,, when you hit 2000hrs helicopter give us a call." One actually said "I hate to say this.... but I have got to have 2000 before I can touch you. Your turbine time is great but I have to have the total helicopter."

 

Im not offering up my resume just for giggles but I am one of those interesting situations where I started in turbines, worked in turbines, and I mean worked in Turbines... So Im genuinely curious at how shooting some pinnacles to a mountain top in a Jet Ranger suddenly makes you become the pilot who steps right into EMS and fire fighting? Not going to happen. If you go to a school where you do all of your training in a Jet Ranger, you will graduate an unemployable 200hr pilot. Take a lot of pictures during your adventure because when its over, its over. i dont know that they are suggesting you do all of your training in a turbine, he doesn't say. OK, so you do 150 in a 44 and manage to squeek out 50 or so doing all of your "turbine transitions" Great. You are still a 200hr pilot.

 

I hate to see people fall for this nonsense. Looks like a neat place to train. Why promote it as something it isnt?

[pilot#476398]

Move over Silver State there's a new dog in town!

[Mikemv]

Many of Upper Limits pilots did not attend Heli Success.

 

I picked up 10+ name tags that were no shows.

 

They do have some good people there like Marshall & Greg that are always at HS. They know the truth and will move on in the industry as respected pilots without the turbine time.

 

I would love to see this guy in the video stand before all of the onsite HS presenters and give this pitch and then sit down and watch their presentations. Oh snap!

 

I feel he truly believes what he says and I do not like to see a fellow vet in this position.

 

Mike

[pilot#476398]

I feel he truly believes what he says and I do not like to see a fellow vet in this position.

 

 

I wonder if he is still a student, or perhaps a new CFI, who is just marketing to other vets what ULA told him (and thus hasn't experienced the reality of looking for a job yet)?

 

Personally I don't want to skip tours. It looks like a fun job.

[Flying Pig]

I think about all the EMS discussions Ive read from on here, and then think about this school suggesting you can graduate and go right to EMS. the thing is...... they know thats not the case. I think its a dishonest video.

[Wally]

What do you guys think? Is this realistic?

 

No!

 

Certificates are one thing, sufficient experience to have the depth of judgement required to do the job is another thing all together. It's not 'stirring the stick' for 1000, 1500, 3000, or any number of hours that qualify you for positions with those minimums, it's overall exposure to the day to day doing of the job, safely, that those minimums make possible.

 

Look at the number of rated aviators posting here looking work. Many have multiples of the hours and experience you'll have when you get all the 'ratings' this guy mentions. These aren't stupid people...

 

That said, starting off well trained is a huge advantage- to you. But it's only the introduction to the profession.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Wally

[Goldy]

Most tour operators flying turbine helicopters require 1000+ hours.

 

Even Papillon has moved from 1000 hrs minimum to 1200 hours preferred....and from a one year commitment to a 18 mos-24 mos commitment....based on the presentation and talk I had with Mark during HS2013....and everyone wants CFII or ATP....and you're not going to get ATP even with 1000 hours....but the 2nd tier job isn't really where the problem is at....I think the bigger hurdle for most pilots is gettting from 200-500.

[iChris]

Well put together video, but from about 2 mins in he talks about having enough turbine hours to skip tour jobs etc:

 

 

What do you guys think? Is this realistic?

 

Maybe it wasn’t intended to be realistic.

 

There’s no real only perception. They’re selling a dream directed at perspective G.I. Bill students. Is it realistic? Maybe for one out of twenty (5%), but for the most part, most would say no.

 

Upper Limit Aviation is a business with the goal of making a profit in return for providing a service. In this case it’s Dream Makers. They’ve put great effort in their marketing. Marketing at its best is a perception made real. The illusion has become real.

 

Remember the quotes from the movie Wall Street (Gordon Gecko)

 

The illusion has become real and the more real it becomes the more desperate they want it. Capitalism at it's finest.

 

Well you were walking around blind without a cane, pal. A fool and his money are lucky enough to get together in the first place.

 

It's all about bucks, kid. The rest is conversation.

 

It's not a question of enough, pal. It's a Zero Sum game - somebody wins, somebody loses. Money itself isn't lost or made, it's simply transferred - from one perception to another. Like magic.

 

We make the rules, pal. The news, war, peace, famine, upheaval, price of a paper clip. We pick that rabbit out of the hat when everybody sits out there wondering how the hell we did it.

 

Now you're not naive enough to think we're living in a democracy, are you, Buddy? It's the free market, and you're part of it. Yeah, you got that killer instinct. Stick around pal, I still got a lot to teach you.

 

'>http://youtu.be/wIOy_QXion8

Edited November 11, 2013 by iChris

[aeroscout]

Capitalism at it's finest isn't snake oil sales, or another Silverstate.

[Spike]

I’m always suspicious when flight school CFI’s attempt to explain the helicopter business and what it takes to advance….

 

Truly, this is just a marketing video to attract former military students who can qualify for the VA loans and nothing new to the helo biz. However, the one and most insulting aspect of the video is the “skipping the tours” comment. I got the impression he was inferring helicopter tours aren’t a legit helicopter gig which is way off base. Plus, and again, this statement was coming from a CFI who’s probably never worked in any other sector of the industry… Poor guy. Someone has not only blown some serious BS his way, but has the balls to go on camera and push it……

 

For anyone searching for a flight school to attend in order to fulfill a goal of becoming a pro helicopter pilot, statements like this are indicators of a school you may want to avoid…..

[nightsta1ker]

Take this with a grain of salt because this is all second hand: This program is in trouble from what I am hearing. Many students here are trying to jump ship and get into other programs elsewhere in the country. I have talked with several students in this program that have inquired about getting into (the place I work for's) program. This VA stuff is kinda tricky. It's a cash cow. Great for business if you are an approved flight school, and potentially good for the students too, if the program is run right. There are some very good programs out there. This, from what I have been hearing, is not one of them. They may get it turned around, but it sounds to me like they bit off more than they could chew and are now choking on it. Greed will kill a VA program like this very quickly. Tread cautiously when picking a school.

[pilot#476398]

 

Even Papillon has moved from 1000 hrs minimum to 1200 hours preferred....and from a one year commitment to a 18 mos-24 mos commitment....based on the presentation and talk I had with Mark during HS2013....and everyone wants CFII or ATP....and you're not going to get ATP even with 1000 hours....but the 2nd tier job isn't really where the problem is at....I think the bigger hurdle for most pilots is gettting from 200-500.

 

The hurdles don't get any lower at 500 hours, and if Papillon has upped to 1200, then it seems they're just getting bigger!

 

I should've gone to Upper Limit,...no Universal,...no Boatpix...

[nightsta1ker]

 

The hurdles don't get any lower at 500 hours, and if Papillon has upped to 1200, then it seems they're just getting bigger!

 

I should've gone to Upper Limit,...no Universal,...no Boatpix...

I'm pretty sure Goldy is talking about that first 200-300 hours after training. It's a LOT easier to get a flight instructor gig with 500 hours (200 dual given) than it is with 300 hours and no practical experience. Anyone that doesn't get hired by their school is going to face that gap.

[Dragbrace]

OK guys, time for a history lesson. In the old days the true pioneers of the industry were factory trained. They for the most part were all WWII veterans who survived the war with a can do attitude.

They were not going to let a new concept of aviation get in their way of success.

 

I was fortunate enough to have been trained by that generation. The early operators trained their new pilots in house from day one. To earn the right to be trained you had to have spent several years working on the ground and have an absolute love for the industry to even be considered.

 

Training was geared to what you were going to be doing, if you met their expectations. Pay was low (starvation) for the first few years to offset training costs.. To get there new students were run thu the wringer. These guys were not going to let you go thru what they had to do.

 

The Fellow that taught my CFI to fly helicopters had 17 hours total time in helicopters back in 1947. Talk about the blind leading the blind !! Those guys survived it all and made damn sure I didn't make any of the mistakes they made.

 

As with any student pilot, the day I soloed was ecstatic, I finally proved to that ol' fart I could do it. As I was tying the machine down that day, he said wait, we're not done yet. We then installed spray gear to the Bell 47 D powered by a 178 HP Franklin engine and added water until I could not hover it with he and I in it. To my amazement he could do it just fine and the rest of the day was spent teaching me how to take off with a load that I couldn't hover with. The rest of my primary training was done at full gross weight.

 

The training was tough and there were times I was ready to throw in the towel but I stuck with it and survived a long career of flying ag & utility work.

 

Fast forward 50 some years to today . The industry has grown in ways I never dreamed of when I was getting stated. In my day you had to be invited into the industry. To meet the demands of today's world, flight schools are everywhere. In my day the only flight schools were at the factories or the good operators who only took on people they could use in their own operations. With the advent of student loans and the new GI Bill The dreams of flying a helicopter are available to everybody . The hard facts are that to satisfy insurance & customer requirements and to survive today's dog eat dog business world it takes much more than just having a certificate to fly a helicopter.

 

My advice to the young people out there, if your desire is truly a passion and not a dream go for it but expect a long hard road to get there.

[Retreating Brain Stall]

Something that needs to be put in these videos is someone giving back to the industry and instructing and saying on camera how it really is- I PAID MY DUES BY............. and now I'm_________.

 

But those kind of things don't sell when the mighty $ is involved. That and finding a salary that would allow you to support a family on normal instructing wages are near impossible to find.

 

The industry sometimes feels like blowing air into a ballon and getting light headed, all just to watch the balloon be deflated and fly around the room for nothing.

[rotornut67]

 

I wonder if he is still a student, or perhaps a new CFI, who is just marketing to other vets what ULA told him (and thus hasn't experienced the reality of looking for a job yet)?

 

Personally I don't want to skip tours. It looks like a fun job.

 

Last I knew he was the Assistant Chief Pilot (one of them anyway) and his wife was in their HR department (director maybe). They are selling their program to the vets, pure and simple. Most of it is a huge waste of tax money (JMHO). Don't get me wrong, I think our Vets deserve the best and I support them 100% and am a veteran myself, but most of the Part 141 students are never going to use the ratings that they have earned anyway. A small percentage will and I salute them, but a lot of them are only in the program because it's not costing them anything and they thought it would be "cool" to be a helicopter pilot.

 

UL has some good people in their ranks that I know personally, but overall they are just another 141 school that is milking that fat cash cow.

[Mikemv]

At Heli Success I spoke with friends that work at Upper Limit and some that train there.

 

Upper Limit was one of the three flight schools that had representation for available jobs and was taking resumes from CFIs. The other two schools offer the modern FITS SBT methodology and also fly a lot of tours and have CFIs build time towards Tier 2 by flying tours in addition to instructing. One is 141/VA approved and does not offer all of the extra training programs like Turbine, Long line, NVG, 135, etc. but does offer both fixed & rotary wing programs.

 

I sent all of the CFIs that I knew to all three of these schools to give them the opportunity for a job and career advancement and entry at Tier 1.

 

Beyond the videos (right, wrong, or otherwise) UL is giving CFIs a chance to enter the field and advance.

 

This is not a validation of any school or UL but just showing that any school can provide a job if they have the inflow.

 

At Heli Success many presenters showed how they seized an opportunity to get a job that was not what they originally considered and emphasized not letting an opportunity go by as another may never arise.

 

As Spike said, you are the customer/pilot in training. I tell in coming pilots to "Own your training", demand quality of product offered, and prepare yourself for every flight and approach it with the mentality of "Making it your best flight ever".

 

Any of you CFIs that are current/proficient and CFII, apply at Upper Limit to get that Tier 1 job.

 

Best Wishes,

 

Mike

[Falko]

For a student it certainly is interesting receiving NVG, long line and turbine experience. But let's be honest here, weren't we all still figuring out how to fly the helicopter, becoming smoother more comfortable and more accurate with the aircraft once we had 200-400 hrs ? Seems to me a little over Kill adding turbine, NVG, long line training in to you regular training at the flight school. It makes me wonder how much knowledge is retained by some 180 hour fresh out of flight school pilot. Also what difference does it makes on resume if you have 5-10 hours of long line training, if you haven't done it in the last 2000 hrs until you finally qualifiy for a job that requires you to fly long line or NVG ?

 

in reality , once you have the hours, you WILL receive NVG, long line, ifr , turbine training AT NO COST TO YOU!!!

Network, work hard, study hard, know your aircraft, dress correctly, be friendly don't burn bridges and you will reach your goal without spending addition money,

 

It always makes me smile when people, who never worked outside the CFI environment , talking about real wold stuff.

[Flying Pig]

Let's face it.... This 100% flight training being paid for is going to come to an end. I don't know when, but with the wars drawing down and the military downsizing, it will. Schools know this too and are doing all they can to grab as many students as they can and get them into very expensive full time degree and pilot training programs ASAP before the program changes. This video is geared towards vets who have free money to spend.

[pilot#476398]

It makes me wonder how much knowledge is retained by some 180 hour fresh out of flight school pilot. Also what difference does it makes on resume if you have 5-10 hours of long line training, if you haven't done it in the last 2000 hrs until you finally qualifiy for a job that requires you to fly long line or NVG ?

 

in reality , once you have the hours, you WILL receive NVG, long line, ifr , turbine training AT NO COST TO YOU!!!

 

 

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, quiet dude! Uncle Sam might hear you!

[Velocity173]

Let's face it.... This 100% flight training being paid for is going to come to an end. I don't know when, but with the wars drawing down and the military downsizing, it will. Schools know this too and are doing all they can to grab as many students as they can and get them into very expensive full time degree and pilot training programs ASAP before the program changes. This video is geared towards vets who have free money to spend.

 

Exactly. Just like a few years ago when they had the TA AVOTEC program. Most of the guys never did finish their ratings and the ones who did hardly ever rent airplanes these days. It got me my fixed wing instrument, but for the taxpayer, I'd say it was a waste of money. No one used it to be a professional pilot. After AVOTEC dried up, the local flight schools went bankrupt. Same thing with the GI Bill. These schools will go the way of Silver State. They're milking it for all VA is worth right now.

 

Being a veteran, I'm not against these GI Bill programs because at least they are oriented in training pilots for a career. However, those who are taking part in this training need to be realistic on their hiring chances afterwards. Getting a long line, NVG qual and IFR ticket mean nothing. That's like me graduating flight school in the Army in hopes of getting a job. There isn't a single graduate right out of a military flight school that I would hire for any single pilot program flying pax around. Same goes for these civilian flight schools. You're not going to get enough experience with a few hundred hours TT, especially when it comes to NVG ops. I've got almost 1,200 hrs NVG and there are nights that I'm working my butt off under low illum and MVFR. A simple qual isn't experience and you can't teach that kind of experience that a company requires in a school.