Upper Limit, Salt Lake City, UT

[supergokougt]

ULA is a good school. I agree they are taking advantage of the govt bill stuff. But they have good ships, maintenance and the pilots were all friendly when I was flying there.

 

Get time in everything like you were going to teach in it. 22,44, and 300 if can. Even get 5 in a bell 47 and enstrom if you can find them. Best chances to get more jobs.

[aussiecop]

Its funny how some threads mutate, but oh' well.

 

I flew an Enstrum once, they're pretty cool! Real easy to fly and they glide like a feather.

 

I did all my training in an Enstrom F28F, odd looking thing, but it autoed like a champ!

[JDHelicopterPilot]

I flew the F28F also, the best auto rotating helicopter I have flown.

[Flying Pig]

Id say the Huey is the best rotating helicopter Ive ever flown…… whop whop whop

[gary-mike]

I thought helicopters said thwap thwap thwap?

[Flying Pig]

Nope. Whop whop whop. It's in the FARs.

[nightsta1ker]

I've heard nothing good about this program. That is all.

[gary-mike]

I have not had a bad experience with upper limit, SLCC on the other hand, has had a few hiccups. All in all though, it has been pretty smooth. These hiccups may not all be on SLCC's part either, remember they are dealing with the extremely slow VA.

[Flying Pig]

There is a school in my area that does their instrument training in the 66. Same claim,… Build valuable turbine time. Although there is no promise of an EMS job right out of school.

[Mikemv]

ACCSC Summary of Grounds for Probation Action Updated December 5, 2013 Page 8 of 9 ACCSC DISCLOSURE OF COMMISSION ACTION

SUMMARY OF GROUNDS FOR PROBATION ACTION

ORIGINATION DATE: SEPTEMBER 5, 2013

UPPER LIMIT AVIATION

SCHOOL #M072183

619 N 2360 W

SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH

At its August 2013 meetings, the Accrediting Commission of Career Schools and Colleges placed Upper Limit Aviation on Probation for the reasons summarized below. The Commission will review the Probation Order and the school’s response at its February 2014 meeting.

Summary of Grounds for Probation:

1. Upper Limit Aviation must demonstrate that secondary educational objectives do not have greater priority within the school’s mission and operations than its career-oriented educational objectives (Section I ((1)(d)(ii), Rules of Process and Procedure, Standards of Accreditation).

2. Upper Limit Aviation must demonstrate that the school has and enforces an acceptable code of conduct for all school personnel whose primary responsibilities are to engage in recruiting and admissions functions prior to and during admission and matriculation (Section IV (A)(4), Substantive Standards, Standards of Accreditation).

3. Upper Limit Aviation must demonstrate that the school does not permit personnel whose primary responsibilities include recruiting and admissions activities to become involved in admission testing or admission decisions, including signing and accepting the enrollment agreement (Section IV (A)(13), Substantive Standards, Standards of Accreditation).

4. Upper Limit Aviation must demonstrate that the school utilizes an enrollment agreement that includes, at a minimum, all required items listed on the ACCSC Enrollment Agreement Checklist (Section IV ©(2)(a), Substantive Standards, Standards of Accreditation).

5. Upper Limit Aviation must demonstrate that members of school management and administrative employees participate in on-going development and training activities that support their particular roles in the school (Section I (A)(3), Substantive Standards, Standards of Accreditation).

6. Upper Limit Aviation must demonstrate that the school engages in on-going faculty assessment and professional development activities that are appropriate to the size and scope of the school’s educational programs; support the quality of education provided; and enhance student learning and achievement (Section III (A)(2), Substantive Standards, Standards of Accreditation).

7. Upper Limit Aviation must demonstrate that the school maintains written policies and procedures addressing student services (Section VI (A)(1), Substantive Standards, Standards of Accreditation).

8. Upper Limit Aviation must demonstrate that the use of the Learning Resource System (“LRS”) materials are integrated into the school’s curriculum and program requirements as a mechanism to enhance the educational process and to facilitate positive learning outcomes for students (Section II (A)(6)(, Substantive Standards, Standards of Accreditation).

9. Upper Limit Aviation must demonstrate that the school’s LRS is managed by qualified school personnel with sufficient experience to provide oversight and supervision (Section II (A)(6)©, Substantive Standards, Standards of Accreditation).ACCSC Summary of Grounds for Probation Action Updated December 5, 2013 Page 9 of 9

10. Upper Limit Aviation must demonstrate that at least one on-site person at the school has appropriate educational administration experience and competence necessary to lead and manage the school’s instructional programs and overall educational experience in such areas as curriculum development; educational effectiveness assessment and improvement; and faculty development and performance appraisals (Section III (A)(1), Substantive Standards, Standards of Accreditation).

11. Upper Limit Aviation must demonstrate compliance with Program Advisory Committee (“PAC”) standards as follows:

• The school must demonstrate that written and detailed minutes of each PAC meeting is maintained and include a description of all members in attendance (i.e., titles and affiliations); the location of the meeting; and a comprehensive and clear description of the review of and commentary made by the school representatives and the Program Advisory Committee members (Section II (A)(5)(d), Substantive Standards, Standards of Accreditation).

• The school must demonstrate that the PAC reviews and comments on, at least annually, the established curriculum of the program and comment as to the appropriateness and adequacy of the program objectives, program length, curriculum content, learning resources, and the adequacy of facilities and equipment and the student graduation, graduate employment, and licensing examination outcomes of each program (Section II (A)(5)(e)(i & ii), Substantive Standards, Standards of Accreditation).

• Upper Limit Aviation must demonstrate that the school gives consideration to PAC input (Section II (A)(5)(f), Substantive Standards, Standards of Accreditation).

12. Upper Limit Aviation must explain in detail the basis for the school’s waiver request regarding faculty qualifications and must provide relevant factual support, including appropriate documentation, for an institutional waiver of Section III ((5), Substantive Standards, Standards of Accreditation. Upper Limit must also be able to demonstrate that the school’s reported rates of graduation and employment are supported through verifiable records (Section VII ((1)(, Substantive Standards, Standards of Accreditation).

13. Upper Limit Aviation must demonstrate that the financial structure of the school is sound, with resources sufficient for the proper operation of the school and discharge of obligations to its students (Section I ©(I), Substantive Standards, Standards of Accreditation).

14. Upper Limit must pay all fees as required by the Commission (Section I (D)(2)(e), Rules of Process and Procedure, Standards of Accreditation).

[pilot#476398]

15 Upper Limit Aviation must demonstrate how their turbine/advanced training leads to an entry level job and how their graduates are able to skip the first tier turbine jobs and go right into EMS and fire fighting!

[Jaybee]

No prices on their website, shady advertising and now some probation for stuff like secondary educational objectives taking priority and acceptable code of conduct for school personnel to name a few.

 

I'm sorry but this all just sounds too much like Silver State to me. I know we all joked and laughed about the ridiculous claims made in their advertising video. Some even went out on a limb to defend it. At the end of the day though you have to have integrity and it sounds like they don't.

 

I know, I know, the fan boys will be in here honking their just a paper work issue horns and the they did right by me bells. It is right here in black and white. Violations, shady advertising and no schedule of fees posted on their website. All I have to say about that is if you support this kind of behavior what does that say about your character ?

[rick1128]

First of all that commission is based on 'career schools and colleges' which are generally brick and mortar based institutions. Many of the items seem to be conflicts between the commission's standards and the FAA's. Plus add in there item 14 '14. Upper Limit must pay all fees as required by the Commission'.

 

As for listing prices on their website, many schools do not. They can and do change with some regularity. As for being another Silver State, I haven't seen any of the flagrant acts that SS used to do.

[Flying Pig]

What it all goes back to is their sales pitch that after graduate from their school, you can go right into EMS or firefighting. Their words. They are lying to recruit students into their program.

 

Ive seen other schools who do testimonials that read "Bob Smith earned his Commercial/Instrument by attending XYZ Helicopter and is now flying an AStar for the Highway Patrol". Hey, great….. what you forgot to point out is that the Highway Patrol sent you Bob Smith with a blank check! Its all the same thing.

 

Its all business and these people will always claim the student should do their own research. They aren't marketing to people who already have their ratings, they are marketing to people who have a blank VA check burning a hole in their pocket and they are trying to get to it before someone else does.

[Jaybee]

First of all that commission is based on 'career schools and colleges' which are generally brick and mortar based institutions. Many of the items seem to be conflicts between the commission's standards and the FAA's. Plus add in there item 14 '14. Upper Limit must pay all fees as required by the Commission'.

 

As for listing prices on their website, many schools do not. They can and do change with some regularity. As for being another Silver State, I haven't seen any of the flagrant acts that SS used to do.

 

Well when you are in cahoots with a college to provide a degree, then that is what they signed up for - FAA and ACCSC standards both !

 

Three of the most respected schools in the country, all have a price schedule on their website :

http://www.maunaloahelicopters.com/helicopter_pilot_lessons_pricing.html

http://www.heli.com/prospective-student/2-tuition-and-fees-FAA.php

http://www.palmbeachhelicopters.com/careerpilot.html

 

:shrug:

 

three more well known and well respected -

http://www.hillsboroaviation.com/en/page/helicopter_flight_training_rates_and_fees

http://www.jerrytrimblehelicopters.com/flight-school-2/programs-pricing/

http://tomlinsonaviation.com/flight-training/pricing/

 

Seems to me the well-known and well respected schools all have something in common - upfront, honest, professional and a schedule of fees.

[helipilotm]

ULA is the next SSH!! Plain and simple! The reason their flying R44's is the VA is funding them. They have an Astar in Cedar doing LL and mountain courses. Also I just heard from a very reliable source they just got a 205 course approved?!? WTF is all I have to say. I would like to slap their poi and say wake up! Their marketing is unreal, I will give them that. The students that are paying for the LL, turbine yada yada are gonna be pissed when they get a reality slap and they can't get a job. I guess at least they didnt pay for it like a non VA student would have. It's really sad to see them abusing the system the way they are.

[aviator]

three more well known and well respected -

http://www.hillsboroaviation.com/en/page/helicopter_flight_training_rates_and_fees

 

 

 

Well respected depends upon who you ask. If you ask the many several students who have transferred to our flight program and were prior Hillsboro pilots-in-training, I guarantee you they don't have the best of things to say about the program up there. Now if you go and ask the many several foreign pilots-in-training who get the glorious treatment, then you may have a very well respected flight school. To each their own.

[Fred0311]

I'm sorry how is upper limit going to run away with my money when I don't pay them until after a flight?

[Fred0311]

My point is if you disagree with their marketing please say so. If you have useful information to contribute like MikeMV did then please contribute. But don't compare them to something that in my mind was criminal. They owe me nothing but training me to the PTS. I chose this school because it is very busy and has a high cfi turnover so hopefully they will be able to give me a job. But if they can't because they don't need me I will begin the long hard road of seeking employment outside of my training school. But as long as I pass my checkrides they've held up there end of the bargain and are not silver state.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Fred0311

[Jaybee]

@ aviator - I was hesitant to put Hillsboro on the list but *shrug* depends on who you ask, I have a few non-foreign friends that I've worked with that were very happy with what they got there. A real close friend of mine, a foreigner - hates the place with a passion. *shrug*

 

@ Fred - I'm assuming you are responding to helipilotm ? It is useful information to me - when the post 9/11 GI bill was originally introduced people were going to Embry Riddle, etc, etc and running up huge tabs to be paid by the VA. It was the law of the land at the time but what happened was the VA almost discontinuing support of flight training. Now I'm not totally sure what the new rules are but because of that it is something like only $XXX per year and must be in conjunction with a degree program, etc, etc.

 

So the question is - with all the financial crisis in government, huge cuts to our military budgets and so on, what is that going to do VA funding of flight training ? If you remember for a little while there you couldn't use the GI bill for flight training while they rewrote the rules. What happens when the bean counters see all the money spent at places like ULA ? That affects everyone.

 

Alas, this is no different than a pilot willing to work for free to gain hours. There is nothing you can say to convince them otherwise, and they just can't see the forest for the trees.

[pilot#476398]

ULA is the next SSH!! Plain and simple! The reason their flying R44's is the VA is funding them. They have an Astar in Cedar doing LL and mountain courses. Also I just heard from a very reliable source they just got a 205 course approved?!? WTF is all I have to say. I would like to slap their poi and say wake up! Their marketing is unreal, I will give them that. The students that are paying for the LL, turbine yada yada are gonna be pissed when they get a reality slap and they can't get a job. I guess at least they didnt pay for it like a non VA student would have. It's really sad to see them abusing the system the way they are.

 

Completely different scam!

[pilot#476398]

 

 

Alas, this is no different than a pilot willing to work for free to gain hours. There is nothing you can say to convince them otherwise, and they just can't see the forest for the trees.

 

Not sure how you can compare the effects of greed on the VA, to a desperate pilot tired of flipping burgers?

[Spike]

I'm sorry how is upper limit going to run away with my money when I don't pay them until after a flight?

 

The tragedy of the SSH scam had little to do with the money. The real tragedy was about stealing people’s dreams. Those dreams were stolen by creating, and selling, a false reality…..

[Jaybee]

 

Not sure how you can compare the effects of greed on the VA, to a desperate pilot tired of flipping burgers?

 

Ahem, "There is nothing you can say to convince them otherwise"... that is the binding agent not the actual events.

 

So there is no more confusion and lack of reading comprehension -

• There is nothing you can say to convince a pilot who is willing to work for free, to not work for free
• There is nothing you can say to convince a wannabe pilot that raping the VA for every penny they can get is wrong (and for a lot of reasons I agree with that actually, e.g. someone who has actually been in combat should get double the GI Bills benefits IMHO).

Fly safe.

[Jaybee]

 

The tragedy of the SSH scam had little to do with the money. The real tragedy was about stealing people’s dreams. Those dreams were stolen by creating, and selling, a false reality…..

 

Someone gets it.

 

Though a slippery slope argument has its own intrinsic faults, it begs the question - If they are willing to advertise falsely and rape the VA for every penny they can get, what else are they willing to do?