Upper Limit, Salt Lake City, UT

[pilot#476398]

I don't know about other turbines, but with just 10.1 hours I felt very comfotable flying the 206. Maybe its because I found it so similar to the 44 (and I've got plenty of time in that), but the 206 ain't nothing special. The start-up and shut-down,...no sweat! A monkey could do it (I may have just insulted myself there!)

 

Anyway, I don't profess to be an expert on it with just 10.1 hours, but I don't really see the big deal here? I could jump in one tomorrow, start it up and fly away just fine.

 

Although my time wasn't on ferry flights, it was job training for frost patrol. Maybe that makes a difference?

 

Now, as long as no one asks any follow-up tech questions,...

[Flying Pig]

As Ive said before….. and I use the example when schools talk about turbine time, is that there is a difference between flying a helicopter and working in one. But I will say, I have a couple hours in an R44 and it handled a lot like a 206.

 

But if you were a pilot who spent all of his time in the left seat just holding the stick on ferry flights while the "real" pilot did all the starts, shut downs and take offs and landings and then tried to embellish that into 100 hours of REAL PIC time, it would be easy to call that out.

[Pensivepilot]

I am a CFI (almost double) at Upper Limit in Cedar City... I just got done teaching, flying, and then driving back to my fiancé 3 hours away today, so forgive me if I ramble.

ULA is the only school Ive really had to deal with, so perhaps I am biased. I did all my training in Salt Lake City in conjunction with SLCC. I do not know all of the in's and out's involved with ULA not having their contract renewed, but I can say that while I was a student, 100% of the hassles I dealt with were due to SLCC problems and not problems from ULA, so my inclination is to say that the contractual problems lie mainly with SLCC and not ULA. As for ULA being misleading... I have seen some mistakes made, by personnel and on the website, but I defy you to find a school that hasn't. The bald guy on the video is my boss. He doesn't have a dishonest bone in his body. He tells instructors and students the straight story, and he cares about every student. We are constantly striving to follow every 141 and 61 rules to the letter. Should we have a 205 course? I agree.. We probably shouldn't. Should we have a mountain and long line course? Hell yes. 27 hrs a piece. No, that wont get you to become an AS350 badass... But it gave me a helluva lot more confidence flying in high altitudes and within a few feet of trees in confined spaces. Will the long line course make me be able to fight fires tomorrow? No, but will it perhaps lead me to want to become a utility pilot? Quite possibly. Ive seen that course make more than a few students decide to go that route. We have 6 44's right now at KCDC and we are going to get at least 3 more. Do we have 44's instead of 22's solely to make more money? Not really. Field elevation at KCDC is 5,622. In order to be productive year-round we cannot have 22's (although we will operate at least one at a satellite school at KSGU, a mere 2,900 ft)

Again... Sorry for the ramble. Its late.

As for spending an extra few seconds "psyching up" before starting a turbine.. I did my commercial in the 206 and have a measly 135 hrs in it, and every time I started it, I took a few extra seconds to go over the start up. A few extra seconds, regardless of how confident I was or how many times I'd started it. I don't think thats a bad thing at all... I would rather spend a few extra seconds on a checklist than turning my engines into a pile of ashes.

[Spike]

I don't know about other turbines, but with just 10.1 hours I felt very comfotable flying the 206. Maybe its because I found it so similar to the 44 (and I've got plenty of time in that), but the 206 ain't nothing special. The start-up and shut-down,...no sweat! A monkey could do it (I may have just insulted myself there!)

 

The difference between the 206 and the R44 is the price tag and, the types of jobs the machine is hired to do. Therefore, the level of responsibility is greater in the 206 and that responsibility must be backed-up by experience. In other words, it’s not about starting the machine or your ability to fly it simply because ANYONE can do that….

 

Here is another perspective; for an entry level turbine gig, if an employer can consider a pilot with 500 hours total time with 30 of it in a turbine, think of all the other applicants the employer will face. Ex-mil guys with all turbine. CFI’s with 750 or 1000 or maybe even 2000 hours of total time but no turbine. Anytime you see a pilot with greater experience means they’ve demonstrated that level of responsibility as mentioned above to another employer. In short, understand the competition in the marketplace and attempt to exceed what they have done in order to get ahead. The alternative is, being the only one who believes you are the greatest pilot in the world albeit, unemployed……. (not you personally, just an analogy).

Edited January 16, 2014 by Spike

[pilot#476398]

...there is a difference between flying a helicopter and working in one.

 

That can be said of any helicopter, 22 and 44 as well!

 

There's a reason why its generally advertised as time building ferry flight. All you are really doing is sitting with your thumb up your ass watching the hobbs turn over! There's no "valuable experience" taking place!

[Flying Pig]

I would refer you to Spikes post. You generally don't find an R22 doing the types of jobs a B206 would be doing. Otherwise….. you would use an R22 or a 44. I know a guy who talks about his 206 time, his UH1 time, his 212 time…. its all on Ferry flights sitting in the left seat. Pilot start, climbs out then hands him the stick. Then takes the controls back on the decent and approach. The guy probably has 50hrs in 212s logged as PIC, but its basically just holding a heading and altitude. But he will tell you about his turbine time.

Then again, I know guys in R44s tearing it up in Ag, sling load ops. But I have yet to see one turn down a turbine gig

Edited January 16, 2014 by Flying Pig

[pilot#476398]

As comfortable as I am in the 206, as I think I mentioned in another thread, I don't even put it on my resume anymore. As a low timer it doesn't really matter what I did in it, or how well I can start it up, nobody gives a sh*t about 10.1 measly hours!

 

My money would have been better spent on a Carribian cruise!

[Mikemv]

P47,

 

{All you are really doing is sitting with your thumb up your ass watching the hobbs turn over! There's no "valuable experience" taking place!}

 

Is this the way you approach the flight or do you really think that a ferry flight is not valuable?

 

Who did you fly with on a ferry flight that made you sit in that position?

 

Your statement was a joke, right?

[pilot#476398]

P47,

 

{All you are really doing is sitting with your thumb up your ass watching the hobbs turn over! There's no "valuable experience" taking place!}

 

Is this the way you approach the flight or do you really think that a ferry flight is not valuable?

 

Who did you fly with on a ferry flight that made you sit in that position?

 

Your statement was a joke, right?

 

Exagerated sarcasm I guess?

 

I just didn't feel like there was anything about the ferry flights I've done that is worth paying for!

 

Dealing with changing weather, varying and unfamiliar airspace, maintenance issues, actually getting to where I intended to go, stopping at a hundred airports because we can only take an hours worth of gas, etc... I did all that during training. After a few times its no big deal. Why anyone would pay to do it (especially in a Jet Ranger) is beyond me?

 

If you're gonna piss away money on something that someone should be paying you to do, then at least DO STUFF with the helicopter! Because yeah, no joke, eventually it did feel like all I was doing was just sitting there watching the hobbs turn over!

 

If someone were to pay me to ferry their aircraft them maybe I'd see some valuable experience there?

[pilot#476398]

One ferry flight I did;

 

I spent 8 of the last 12 hours in this tiny R22 (because of all the fuel stops we had to make) and we're still another half hour from our destination. My back and knees ache, I'm tired. I had to deal with a faulty alternator, restricted airspace, and so much fricken wind that my whopping 75 kts airspeed yielded a mere 39 kts grounspeed (almost didn't make it through the restricted area in the time they alloted), plus several times the wind got "tempermental" and I got my ass knocked all over the place as well as up and down like a roller coaster! After a while I couldn't help but think; Wouldn't it had been better to just strap this thing to a flatbed and let some trucker haul it?

 

Yeah it was experience. Some of it new, most of it not. Would I call it "valuable" experience? Not really. Was it worth paying for? Hell no!

 

It was just xc experience. No big deal!

[helipilotm]

If I was doing an interview. Id want to talk to my applicant in some serious detail before I let them have access to the starter. In your case, Im assuming you started it for him?

You better believe I started it! Company policy for interviews wether they have 0 or 500 hours of turbine. About the start I have a little talk with myself every time. Is it a big deal no, 99% of the time it's easy. Nothing wrong with going slow though. In our company I fly jet rangers, long rangers, 407 and astars. Most of my time is in the 407 and Astar. When I jump in a long ranger I go way slow till I have a few starts. I have seen a very high time pilot I respect toast a motor because he was in a hurry and had been flying a 407 for a few months. It can happen to anybody. I'm not gonna be responsible for destroying a perfectly good one!

 

Also I think his biggest problem was straight ferry time from the left seat. Kudos on him and ex CFI for making it happen but ferrying will only help out with basic control. If he had 10 or so hours of patterns, starts and EP's it would be a different story! 206's fly like a 44.

 

I've seen it a few times where a pilot will psyche themselves out because its bigger, a turbine or any other excuse. I always tell people on interviews or training it's just a helicopter. Yeah it might be a (fill in the blank) but they all have a cyclic, collective and pedals and fly. They have different characteristics but the basics are the same.

 

To the instructor from ULA. I never said your boss was a dishonest person. After watching the video a second time I still stand by what I said. That is a straight up misleading video to only recruit students. Every flight school does it and will do it. But for him to say the students that attend ULA can skip certain jobs or ways to "break" into the industry is a joke. if you haven't done tours, or the GOM loaded down with a full boat and think your not going to get in trouble flying utility your dead wrong. Going from turbine instructing straight into utility is a recipe for disaster! Somebody is going to get hurt, killed or at a minimum damage the aircraft. I'm just going off of what was said in the video.

[Hobie]

P47: Dude- you are blacklisting yourself. Suggest you keep these thoughts to yourself in respect to the 'worthless' ferry flights.

 

I bet there is a bit a dry humor here, but I wouldn't risk a $60k hot start in a turbine letting someone who expressed this attitude. Just sayin'

 

Behave like a pro - always. We need ya.

[Flying Pig]

Ferry flights or any flight for that matter when you are the spare tire the pilot allowed to tag along just needs to be kept in perspective based on what you do on the flight. Are you are sitting passenger seat with a buddy whos letting you hold the cyclic or are you actually doing the entire flight yourself. Just keep it real when it comes to someone asking you if you have REAL experience in a particular aircraft.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Flying Pig

[pilot#476398]

P47: Dude- you are blacklisting yourself. Suggest you keep these thoughts to yourself in respect to the 'worthless' ferry flights.

 

I bet there is a bit a dry humor here, but I wouldn't risk a $60k hot start in a turbine letting someone who expressed this attitude. Just sayin'

 

Behave like a pro - always. We need ya.

 

Not worthless, just not worth paying for!

 

I will try to not let my views on ferry flights effect how I start up a 206 though!

[gary-mike]

Taking the topic a little further off course, what is the deal with starting a 206? Admittedly, I read through the last few posts and raise this question without researching first. From above posts I've gathered that the 206 is more prone to hot starts than other turbines. Is it more of an engine overspeed issue due to the lower mass of the 2 blade rotor, or the engine itself is more prone to hot starts?

 

The only time I have got close to a hot start while doing maintenance runs on fighter jets was when I ran a freshly installed pickled engine.

 

I'll gain experience down the road, I was just curious what the big scare is. My experience with turbine engines is that starting them is easy, they just take longer to get to idle speed and have to be monitored as they get there. Of course you have to be poised and ready to react quick. On the flip side, I have also had "a moment of silence" to quickly check myself before flipping the switch. To me that isn't a lack of confidence, that's being meticulous and safety conscious.

[helipilotm]

Double tap

Edited January 17, 2014 by helipilotm

[helipilotm]

Taking the topic a little further off course, what is the deal with starting a 206? Admittedly, I read through the last few posts and raise this question without researching first. From above posts I've gathered that the 206 is more prone to hot starts than other turbines. Is it more of an engine overspeed issue due to the lower mass of the 2 blade rotor, or the engine itself is more prone to hot starts?

 

The only time I have got close to a hot start while doing maintenance runs on fighter jets was when I ran a freshly installed pickled engine.

 

I'll gain experience down the road, I was just curious what the big scare is. My experience with turbine engines is that starting them is easy, they just take longer to get to idle speed and have to be monitored as they get there. Of course you have to be poised and ready to react quick. On the flip side, I have also had "a moment of silence" to quickly check myself before flipping the switch. To me that isn't a lack of confidence, that's being meticulous and safety conscious.

I will try to explain. It has nothing to do with the 2 bladed system. Its the way the fuel is introduced, basically the way it was designed. On turbine engines about half of the air used is for cooling. At start you have lower airflow therefore higher temps.

 

Another thing to add jets are allot easier to start, actually airplanes as a whole. The reason is they don't have the mass of the rotor system to slow them down.

 

A 206 B is very easy to start you hold the start button down at the proper engine speed you roll the throttle on to a set point. A 206 L is still very easy but more chance of human error. On this start its what's called a modulated start. Where the pilot is in control of how much fuel is being added unlike the B model. The biggest thing is every L model is just a little different. Some you have to just think about moving the throttle and its too much, others the total opposite.

[Spike]

Taking the topic a little further off course, what is the deal with starting a 206? Admittedly, I read through the last few posts and raise this question without researching first. From above posts I've gathered that the 206 is more prone to hot starts than other turbines. Is it more of an engine overspeed issue due to the lower mass of the 2 blade rotor, or the engine itself is more prone to hot starts?

 

The only time I have got close to a hot start while doing maintenance runs on fighter jets was when I ran a freshly installed pickled engine.

 

I'll gain experience down the road, I was just curious what the big scare is. My experience with turbine engines is that starting them is easy, they just take longer to get to idle speed and have to be monitored as they get there. Of course you have to be poised and ready to react quick. On the flip side, I have also had "a moment of silence" to quickly check myself before flipping the switch. To me that isn't a lack of confidence, that's being meticulous and safety conscious.

 

Yes, starting a turbine is not that complicated. However, one must be highly vigilant when going about the process. Kind-of-like picking your nose. Do it wrong and bad things will happen….

 

With the advent of Full Authority Digital Engine Control units (FADEC), some models practically start themselves, while other models without FADEC require you to roll the throttle into a detent and monitor the parameters. On the other hand, some models require fine muscle motor movement in the wrist to meter the fuel flow to keep the flame within limits ala modulation. And, not all throttles roll smoothly and thus requiring a bit more than fine motor skills. Some don’t even have a throttle pre-say but rather a Fuel Flow Control lever. Even so, regardless of the mechanical mechanisms being utilized, being vigilant while following the specific procedure can prevent an extremely costly mistake. That is, when an over-temp condition exists, or progressing, (hopefully before any damage occurs), removing the fuel flow and cooling the engine become paramount. This is done by understanding, when you attempt to control an explosion which takes the ambient temperature of the engine to roughly 700 degree Celsius in a second or two requires focus, skill and faith. Faith is what your employer will have in you, that you will do it correctly hundreds, if not thousands of times, day-in-and-day-out…. Hence the responsibility aspect as mentioned above…….

[helonorth]

Fine muscle motor movement? I'm gonna remember that.

[gary-mike]

Thanks for the info guys' makes sense.

[Retreating Brain Stall]

Back to the Video part of the topic/thread-

I find it ironic that I called them last month looking for a back up option to renting a Bell 206 for an ATP check ride and their response is that it "has to be with their DPE". So they are providing the industry with higher level pilots that can break in below industry minimums because of the turbine experience but won't let a pilot off the street come in with his choosing of a DPE in the region? And I'm aware its probably back to insurance and that I would not be a money making adventure for them. But ironic I find it, say one thing in your video but practice another thing

And my impression of them has been tarnished by emailing back and asking who the DPE is to confirm if I was planning on using the same individual, still no response over a month later. Way to do business and not respond- so my business will not be going through them due to the lack of basic courtesy to respond.

Again- I probably Am not a money making adventure for them since I'd be in and out on an ATP check ride, so they must not be interested in helping out and giving back to the industry (in my opinion- interpret how you will:)

[helonorth]

Schools can make a lot of money on check rides by having their own DPE, especially now that I have seen some rates as high as $800. When I took my commercial at Bristow, the guy that did my ride was already on staff but I still had to fork over $500 (he wanted it in cash, too. No surprise.)

[Flying Pig]

The school I went to had their own DPE who did not charge for checkrides.

[pilot#476398]

A turbine job waiting for you, DPE didn't charge you! Damn! Hello Mr. 1%!...can I have your autograph?

[Dnr032]

Taking the topic a little further off course, what is the deal with starting a 206?

 

Gary-mike,

 

There is nothing magic about starting a B-206. Spike summed it up very well above. They are just all a little different. Some of what this thread discussed is experience; what is good experience and what is, well maybe, not so good. Unfortunately it all all perspective.

 

As a guy who has been in this industry a long time, let me add this bit of advice. (back off the original topic) If you log time in a turbine, as a low-time pilot, know something about the aircraft and the systems! Please don't be the guy who just sits in the left seat and wiggles the sticks, straight and level from point A to B. If you are paying for it, then ask questions and learn something from the flight.

 

For example, months ago we interviewed for a position. One of the guys we interviewed showed about 150 hrs B206L time on his resume. Although he was lower time than the other candidates and slightly lower than our posted minimums, we liked him. He was doing well in the interview and I think we were all thinking, "yeah. I like this guy. Let's take a chance on him." All of that changed when my Boss said, 'so you have time in an L, how do you start it?"

 

The poor guy just looked like he had been sucker-punched in the stomach. He said, what do you mean? My boss continued, ok you have all the switches in the right position, boost pumps are running and the fuel valve is on. You hit the starter, N1 spools up to 12-15%, what do you do with the throttle? He said, "I think you snap the throttle to idle."

 

It was obvious he had never started an L model before (see Spike's post above). So, be honest. He acted like he had a vast amount of experience in L's. He would have been better off if he told us he never really cranked the aircraft and all of that time was just ridding along on ferry flights with someone else.