Course chronology

[Talon64]

Is there a certain order that woft needs to happen?

 

I have wocs in October and grad 21 nov.

Do we train thru thanksgiving? Or is that a down day?

 

Then I also already have a course reservation for aviation warrant officer basic that starts on 5 jan. What is that? Bolc? Anyhow, whatever it is, should I expect a sere and dunker reservation coming down soon? Or can the courses come in whatever order?

[Lindsey]

It'll be:

 

WOCS

BOLC (that's your Aviation Warrant Officer Basic Course)

SERE

IERW

 

The only thing that can be out of "order" is Dunker, but that still has to be done before SERE. In other words, it can be done either before or after BOLC.

 

Right now though, just focus on WOCS. Everything else will come in due time.

[Talon64]

It'll be:

 

WOCS

BOLC (that's your Aviation Warrant Officer Basic Course)

SERE

IERW

 

The only thing that can be out of "order" is Dunker, but that still has to be done before SERE. In other words, it can be done either before or after BOLC.

 

Right now though, just focus on WOCS. Everything else will come in due time.

Ah the infamous Lindsey. I almost messaged you direct. But figured I could use everyone's input.

 

If this is my bolc course, why is there a different course named bolc? Is that for officers? And warrant officer basic the same thing for wo's?

 

I'm currently a security forces instructor and we put new officers thru what we call basic officers course. I'm familiar with military training and ten years in. I understand wocs will have its own challenges specially for us prior service folks. I'm not too worried for wocs. I see it as a stepping stone...

 

I'm anxious for everything else

[SBuzzkill]

IIRC, BOLC is just the first part of WOBC which as an aviator is flight school. You graduate WOBC when you get your wings. It's been a few years so I may be wrong...

[Talon64]

Ooooh I get it. It makes sense now.

[I3uller]

While nothing in WOCS is really that bad, there's a good number of things that can end your career there before it even starts, so don't take it too lightly.

[cwil7280]

Like what exactly? I have heard Land Nav can be a career ender, but not of much else, besides injury.

[Talon64]

Well yea of course. I'm sure it has some process to course eliminate the weak hearted, lacking leadership, pansies out.

 

I'm curious to know some of the challenges built in for prior service...

[Lindsey]

Like what exactly? I have heard Land Nav can be a career ender, but not of much else, besides injury.

We lost 2 people in our class of seventy-something. It wasn't to land nav, PT, etc but to honor code violations. Don't do anything stupid, and if you do, don't lie about it. The TACs are much more likely to forgive stupidity. If you lie then you're toast (read: recycled with threat of elimination).

[Talon64]

Lol... define stupid. I can only imagine. I'm sure the diversity is crazy ranging from young civilians, old civilians, and old prior service farts.

 

I can only imagine the stupidity. For example,

We had afresh lieutenant try to sneak his gf on to base in the trunk of his car. And he got popped with a random vehiCle inspection and got busted. All he had to do was sponsor her on.

[cwil7280]

^^ That is hilarious.

 

 

We lost 2 people in our class of seventy-something.

 

Honor code violations make sense. Were those the only 2 people you lost?

[Lindsey]

Lol... define stupid. I can only imagine. I'm sure the diversity is crazy ranging from young civilians, old civilians, and old prior service farts.

 

I can only imagine the stupidity. For example,

We had afresh lieutenant try to sneak his gf on to base in the trunk of his car. And he got popped with a random vehiCle inspection and got busted. All he had to do was sponsor her on.

 

That's the thing. One kid was a really good candidate and just made a little mistake and tried to cover it up (that's the story we were told, at least). He ended up graduating w/ the next class two weeks later. You would *think* people would get honor code violations for doing something obviously stupid, like what you described, but it's the little things that will get you at WOCS. It's all in the details.

 

Were those the only 2 people you lost?

 

Yep. We actually graduated with more people than we started with since we picked up several recycles from previous classes (funny enough most were land nav failures. TACs said land nav tends to be a greater challenge for the prior service 5-week courses).

[Lindsey]

Honestly, the biggest thing about WOCS is pay attention but try to enjoy yourself. I know a lot of us who came straight from Basic Training really enjoyed the perceived "freedoms." Many prior-service folk would complain about the lockdown status but us street-to-seaters were like, "wait, you mean we can have that?" or "that's it, no mass punishment?"

[Talon64]

See... sounds pretty legit. I teach land nav so I should be square away with that. And I'm prepared for the lock down status. Been there done that. I'm very excite (in a nacho voice).

[Lindsey]

See... sounds pretty legit. I teach land nav so I should be square away with that. And I'm prepared for the lock down status. Been there done that. I'm very excite (in a nacho voice).

 

Forgot to mention too that you're not allowed to run on the land nav course (though the rules are always changing, so who knows what it'll be when you're there). When they say don't run, they mean do *not* run. Don't even appear to be. I guess several of those that "fail" land nav fail because they rushed and were deemed to be running. There's just no need. 3 hours to find 3/4 points, and you can use the roads.

[cwil7280]

 

Honestly, the biggest thing about WOCS is pay attention but try to enjoy yourself. I know a lot of us who came straight from Basic Training really enjoyed the perceived "freedoms." Many prior-service folk would complain about the lockdown status but us street-to-seaters were like, "wait, you mean we can have that?" or "that's it, no mass punishment?"

 

I am so happy I get to go back to basic before WOCS. Like you said Lindsey, I think that by comparison I will feel like I have it so much better. Would you say it was a break compared to basic? Or worse? Or just a different kind challenge? Also, I know land-nav comes up a lot, but seeing how you're fresh out of it, did they teach you everything you need to know for the course? I have read a lot of comments saying it's more about general sense of direction and step count than "real" land-nav. Any input?

[Lindsey]

I am so happy I get to go back to basic before WOCS. Like you said Lindsey, I think that by comparison I will feel like I have it so much better. Would you say it was a break compared to basic? Or worse? Or just a different kind challenge? Also, I know land-nav comes up a lot, but seeing how you're fresh out of it, did they teach you everything you need to know for the course? I have read a lot of comments saying it's more about general sense of direction and step count than "real" land-nav. Any input?

 

Compared to Basic, it was just...different. It was easier in the sense that you are treated like an adult (which comes with "adult" consequences). It was harder in the sense that more was expected out of you. The academic tests aren't a joke, meaning that you have to study for them. They would be easy to fail if you didn't study, but if you put in time and effort, you will do well. At Basic, if you just followed instructions like a mindless robot then you're some sort of amazing super-soldier. At WOCS, you actually have to think for yourself, make decisions, and work with your fellow candidates. Approach it with a positive mindset, keep that frame of mind, and you'll be golden. People give the street-to-seaters a lot of sh*t for being new to the Army, but most of the complaining I heard at WOCS was from the prior service guys

 

Regarding land nav, that's difficult for me to answer. I've been doing land nav off and on for the better part of 10 years for Search and Rescue, and had just done it a couple months previously at BCT. Personally, I thought they taught it well at WOCS. Being able to use the roads made it less of a navigation course and more of an orientation course, although it was still up to the individual if they wanted to use the roads or not. If you wanna be highspeed, don't use them. Regardless, I calculated a pace count for every turn/bend/intersection in the roads I was following so that I knew exactly where I was all the time. Some folks got a little confused because there are some horse trails on the course that aren't on the map you're given. I shot an azimuth once during the entire course, and it was to a point that was only 100m off the road, but through some somewhat thick-brush. The rest of my points were 0-50m off the road. Oh! Bring a second (or third) protractor. We had someone who lost theirs on the course and had to retake land nav a few days later because he couldn't find his last couple points. I had a protractor in my map case, one in my chest pocket, and one in my right pants cargo pocket.

[cwil7280]

So BCT does some land-nav, that is good to know. Honestly though, if anyone is failing the land-nav course, hopefully it is not the potential aviators. I would guess that it has a more direct influence in our career field over some of the other Warrant MOSs.

 

So Lindsey, I got a question nobody has been able to answer for me so far. My understanding is that after WOCS you actually PCS to Ft. Rucker. Is this mandatory? Is there anyway to stay in a TDY status during your entire training period? Here is why; my fiance (will be wife before BCT) cannot leave our home state, UT, until about 7 months after I complete WOCS. If I PCS to Ft. Rucker without her, then I will have a mortgage to pay in UT and AL (unless I am in base housing in which case I get no BAH). Also, she will have to live without almost all of our belongings because (from my understanding) when she does come to stay with me, the remaining move from UT to AL will be out of our pocket.

 

I have heard that if I stay TDY I will get housing/hotel for free (like any TDY) as well as BAH for my residence in UT, and then after training I can PCS from UT with all my belongings. Any idea on how this process may work?

[cwil7280]

Also, thanks so much for all your contributions to this forum, you have helped a lot of people, including myself. And congrats for finishing WOCS! I haven't heard a lot about the BOLC portion, but I bet you're excited to be one step closer to SERE!

[Jon B.]

 

Forgot to mention too that you're not allowed to run on the land nav course (though the rules are always changing, so who knows what it'll be when you're there). When they say don't run, they mean do *not* run. Don't even appear to be. I guess several of those that "fail" land nav fail because they rushed and were deemed to be running. There's just no need. 3 hours to find 3/4 points, and you can use the roads.

 

Had to get this out of the way. Using a road as anything but a handrail is NOT land nav. If anyone here has done the Star course you know what I mean.

[Jon B.]

 

People give the street-to-seaters a lot of sh*t for being new to the Army, but most of the complaining I heard at WOCS was from the prior service guys

 

Regarding land nav, that's difficult for me to answer. I've been doing land nav off and on for the better part of 10 years for Search and Rescue, and had just done it a couple months previously at BCT. Personally, I thought they taught it well at WOCS. Being able to use the roads made it less of a navigation course and more of an orientation course, although it was still up to the individual if they wanted to use the roads or not. If you wanna be highspeed, don't use them. Regardless, I calculated a pace count for every turn/bend/intersection in the roads I was following so that I knew exactly where I was all the time. Some folks got a little confused because there are some horse trails on the course that aren't on the map you're given. I shot an azimuth once during the entire course, and it was to a point that was only 100m off the road, but through some somewhat thick-brush. The rest of my points were 0-50m off the road. Oh! Bring a second (or third) protractor. We had someone who lost theirs on the course and had to retake land nav a few days later because he couldn't find his last couple points. I had a protractor in my map case, one in my chest pocket, and one in my right pants cargo pocket.

 

Just me thinking out loud here. But you guys ARE the new kids on the block, not leaders in the army yet, never had soldiers, etc. Just my $.02, i'm not a drama llama at all, but I figure you had bad prior service people.

 

I didn't see this reply before putting in my $.02 about the land nav. You were better off than most for sure!

[Joe_P148]

 

Had to get this out of the way. Using a road as anything but a handrail is NOT land nav. If anyone here has done the Star course you know what I mean.

There's a fine line between hard and retard. The real world has roads and man made features if you can use them to find where you need to go then it very realistic. You think you won't use roads as an aviator? You think you won't use roads if you have to evade? You think you will navigate to a random stake in the ground, ever? No!

[Jon B.]

There's a fine line between hard and retard. The real world has roads and man made features if you can use them to find where you need to go then it very realistic. You think you won't use roads as an aviator? You think you won't use roads if you have to evade? You think you will navigate to a random stake in the ground, ever? No!

 

Again, just my opinion. But i'd be willing to bet my next pay check you've never done any "real" land nav either. It's cool, sometimes planning your routes based off nothing but Maps or Satellite imagery makes for a very realistic route. It's not easy, it's not for everyone who wants an easy route.

 

But I guess you've never patrolled for real in your life. It's pretty obvious. You avoid roads like the plague because they can be your undoing WAY faster than your savior. Hell, orchards in Afghanistan are FUN!

 

Again, my $.02...

[Joe_P148]

 

Again, just my opinion. But i'd be willing to bet my next pay check you've never done any "real" land nav either. It's cool, sometimes planning your routes based off nothing but Maps or Satellite imagery makes for a very realistic route. It's not easy, it's not for everyone who wants an easy route.

 

But I guess you've never patrolled for real in your life. It's pretty obvious. You avoid roads like the plague because they can be your undoing WAY faster than your savior. Hell, orchards in Afghanistan are FUN!

 

Again, my $.02...

Former LRSD... Not everyone in this forum is a cherry at NAV...

 

I'd bet my paycheck you had at least 3 forms of GPS on that patrol with back up batteries for each system.

 

I'd also bet that you used man made features on those patrols to confirm your location and then moved to a man made feature to either observe or raid that man Made feature.

 

Point being, walking in the woods 1 click to a random flat ass hill is unrealistic for most people in the Army, and I'm not criticizing it because I suck at it, I think it's unrealistic.

[akscott60]

Sigh.

 

You will do another land nav course in BOLC.

 

Lets keep the thread civil. WOCS and BOLC land nav isnt Afganistan, the long walk, or the star course.

 

Oh, and even more land nav in SERE.