Just selected airframe

[akscott60]

My Dad was a SERGRAD. I thought it was a bit more common than I guess it is Hotdogs. Oops

[Diesel5187]

Worry about getting through flight school before thinking about a track. You do know you have to make Pilot in command before you can track?

 

Let me guess? You wanna be the first RL1 pilot to challenge the IP course with 0 hours of PC time. You need to check yourself brotha.

How do you make PiC?

[akscott60]

PC is made with hard work, time and in accordance to unit SOP. Some are different than others.

[Yamer]

Gypsy tears can get you there faster... Along with goal bashing on a forum lmao

[Diesel5187]

PC is made with hard work, time and in accordance to unit SOP. Some are different than others.

SOP?

 

I can do hard work, that's the easy part for me.

 

Do it once to it right.

And

If it is worth doing it is worth over doing.

 

Are 2 of the quotes I live by.

[Velocity173]

SOP?

 

I can do hard work, that's the easy part for me.

 

Do it once to it right.

And

If it is worth doing it is worth over doing.

 

Are 2 of the quotes I live by.

Standard Operating Procedures.

 

The requirements for PC will vary by unit. If you go to Korea (UH-60) you can get it in less than a year. They fly a fair amount and have a basic CTL.

 

Other units will take maybe a little over a year depending on how much they fly and how extensive the CTL is. For instance, if you're in Campbell you're probably going to have far more mission tasks to train to before you can even become RL1 than most other units. After that it's a matter of getting proficient on those tasks before you're put up on your PC ride.

Edited July 12, 2014 by Velocity173

[Joe_P148]

SOP?

 

I can do hard work, that's the easy part for me.

 

 

 

Do it once to it right.

And

If it is worth doing it is worth over doing.

 

Are 2 of the quotes I live by.

It's more than just memorizing stuff and hard work. A lot of it depends on unit, timing, command climate, maturity military bearing ect... Lots of other stuff cones into play some units have a quota and won't mske any more PCs then they need, although I don't agree with that mindset.

 

I've seen guys make PC in 300 hours and make it in 1000 hours. The attributes that help you pass flight school will be different then what you need to be recommended for PC.

 

You guys really need to just focus on your flight school stuff right now and not worry about making PC 2-3 years down the road.

[Hotdogs]

I personally think the guy teaching the military piloting tactics in a complex aircraft should have a little bit of experience in complex aircraft and military piloting tactics. But I guess the other services can do whatever they want.

 

 

Flight school isn't teaching "military piloting tactics." It's teaching you how to become a basic FW/RW pilot in a specific TMS. The tactical portion of USAF/USMC/USN flight training comes when you hit your fleet squadron - everything else is just make believe.

[Diesel5187]

Velocity and Joe, have my likes gentlemen, thank you.

[electron_si]

It's more than just memorizing stuff and hard work. A lot of it depends on unit, timing, command climate, maturity military bearing ect... Lots of other stuff cones into play some units have a quota and won't mske any more PCs then they need, although I don't agree with that mindset.

 

I've seen guys make PC in 300 hours and make it in 1000 hours. The attributes that help you pass flight school will be different then what you need to be recommended for PC.

 

You guys really need to just focus on your flight school stuff right now and not worry about making PC 2-3 years down the road.

 

 

I agree with guys in flight school keeping their goals in check (i.e. graduation) but as soon as you report to your unit you are being assessed for PC by your attitude and work ethic.

[Joe_P148]

 

 

I agree with guys in flight school keeping their goals in check (i.e. graduation) but as soon as you report to your unit you are being assessed for PC by your attitude and work ethic.

Yeah, completely agree.

[AVIATORWANNABE]

Holy smokes. That was fun. Just to add, as much as I agree with the whole do your best, give it your all. The PT test before AC selection was competitive for 50% of the class the guys in the top half all scored 300's the guys in the bottom half all skipped through it. Maybe the climate of flight school is changing (notably for the worst) but with the AC selection #'s being what they are few people are motivated to put in the work that it seems most of you witnessed during your IERW or so has been my experience.

[UH60L-IP]

Flight school isn't teaching "military piloting tactics." It's teaching you how to become a basic FW/RW pilot in a specific TMS. The tactical portion of USAF/USMC/USN flight training comes when you hit your fleet squadron - everything else is just make believe.

 

 

This is going to save billions. When I go in tomorrow morning I will let everyone know that we can cut out "basic warfighter skills" in the TH-67 and the "combat skills" phase of the advanced airframes. I'm not sure what I am going to do with my students in the UH-60 tomorrow though, because we are in the combat skills phase - especially considering that the techniques I was going to present to them were the very ones I applied in Afghanistan daily.

 

For starters, I'll just cross the following off my list:

 

Masking/unmasking

Terrain flight decels

Performance considerations and tab data

Confined area operations

Terrain flight navigation

Low level and contour flight

Formation flying

Stag left/right, straight trail, associated angles, changing of visual references

In flight break-up

Evasive maneuvers

Action on contact

Pretty much everything on PPC correlation

Internal load operations

Electronically aided navigation

Select landing zone/pick-up zone/holding area

Digital communications

Negotiate wire obstacles

Operate aircraft survivability equipment

Hand and arms signals

Hot refuel procedures

Tactical flight mission planning

Maneuvering flight limitations

 

Everything listed falls into a 1000 series task. If one asserts that they will get more specific training at their unit in reference to 2000 series tasks and beyond, yes, I totally agree - that is unit and mission specific. But to say that students do not learn military piloting tactics in flight school is simply ignorant of fact.

 

I am an Army flight instructor and teach these skills to first time Blackhawk students daily. And it is not Army specific - if it were I would not be sharing my RTs and range area with "basic" Air Force students.

[AW1985]

Wow -IP....

 

I actually agree with hotdogs. I think that flight school was the key to the door and I learned so much more with my first unit. People's experiences may vary but I got one formation flight in the -60 course and BWS was a huge waste of time (although it was the most fun). It is by far the least used skill set acquired in flight school that I apply in my unit.

 

I'd say the -60 course was more of a demo of what we can expect at our first unit. In fact most of the stuff you mentioned (although basic 1000 series) was just demoed with me applying it once or twice. There just isn't enough time or money to really become proficient. Let's be honest, most of the kids we get from flight school now days can't even make a radio call or read back an IFR clearance without fumbling through it...and being an instructor, I don't expect anything more or less with a student that has less then 200 hrs in one of the most advanced rotary wing airframes in the world.

 

So like stated above...I agree with hotdogs...flight school produces a very rudimentary pilot that can pick up and sit down a helicopter without rolling it over (most days).

[UH60L-IP]

I don't think anybody, especially myself, said that flight school was not producing a basic pilot. We train 1000 series tasks which are basic tasks. They include basic military piloting skills that the civilian world simply does not train - I know this because I started as a CFII in an R-22.

 

I asserted that the unit forms the pilot. That's why we have unit IPs.

 

Nonetheless, to say that a pilot is not taught military combat skills in flight school is asinine. You are. Now whether or not you fully grasp the concepts prior to getting to your unit is pilot dependent. I have had students that I knew would make PC shortly after arriving at their units. I have also had competent pilots that will be competent pilots (not PC) for perhaps years to come. I take some students on 5 formation flights and spend lots of time in RTs while other students need more time in the pattern and thus will not grasp those combat skills as well. All students are presented the information, undergo the flight training, and should know how to read their tactical flight mission planning guides. If they can't or choose not to devote the time, that does not mean the training was absent.

 

Whether a fast learner or slow learner one thing remains true - military style combat skills are taught in the OH58 during primary and in the advanced airframes at flight school. To say that we are only producing a "basic pilot" is patently false. The civilian sector produces basic pilots - I am not knocking that - again, I was a CFII in an R-22. The civilian sector does not present many of those 1000 series tasks to which I refer.

 

You should learn so much more at your unit. It would be crazy not to. But those company level IPs are not building a pilot, they are building upon a pilot to train them for unit specific missions. I always say that we are giving them a Ford. The company instructors are determining whether they become a Taurus or F150. But they should at least have four wheels when they get to their company. That means they were trained in tactics. If they were not, either the student was slow to grasp the concepts or their IP was inept.

[AW1985]

-IP,

 

I agree with all that. I mis-understood you. I am also a civilian fixed wing instructor and agree with you on that level as well. In fact it makes more sense to me now. The military pilot (out of flight training) is actually pretty weak in the NAS due to the fact that we are concentrating on military tactics and military SOPs more so then civilian NAS procedures and regulations.

 

Sorry to jump on you like that.

[Velocity173]

Two different things here. The Navy / Marine and AF select grads are teaching T-45, T-38s and TH-57s. They aren't there to teach tactics in an advanced airframe. It's like Hotdogs describes. They there to teach a basic training platform.

 

The Army isn't taking some student out of 60s and having them instruct tactics in 60s. Just like the Navy isn't retaining a student after F-18s to teach F-18s. They are keeping select honor grad students to teach trainers. You don't need some combat vet to teach that. Especially since they won't be flying T-45s when they go out into the fleet.

Edited July 13, 2014 by Velocity173

[Velocity173]

Terrain flight planning / Nav, actions on contact and multi ship are 1000 series tasks now?

Edited July 13, 2014 by Velocity173

[Hotdogs]

Two different things here. The Navy / Marine and AF select grads are teaching T-45, T-38s and TH-57s. They aren't there to teach tactics in an advanced airframe. It's like Hotdogs describes. They there to teach a basic training platform.

 

The Army isn't taking some student out of 60s and having them instruct tactics in 60s. Just like the Navy isn't retaining a student after F-18s to teach F-18s. They are keeping select honor grad students to teach trainers. You don't need some combat vet to teach that. Especially since they won't be flying T-45s when they go out into the fleet.

 

Velocity nailed it.

 

SERGRADs and FAIPs teach basic piloting skills. Much like CFI/II teaches basic fam and instrument procedures. There is nothing tactical about it. There is no such thing as a SERGRAD or FAIP teaching an advanced platform like an F/A-18C, AH-1W, or MH-60R. I would also say that FRS training isn't really that tactical either, you may do a smidget of tactical flying across the various TMS here and there (Weapons, ACM, Cals, forms, sensor work) but nothing really earth shattering. It's not like we have nuggets trying to teach new pilots basic JCAS procedures or FAC(A).

 

It's a service difference between how the Army does things and the rest of the joint world. We also don't have civilian flight instructors in primary or advanced aside from sim instructors.

 

Also a big difference between the Army and everyone else - you get your wings when you're done flying the TH-57B/C, T-44, T-45, and TC-12. Then you goto the FRS which is equivalent to the Army's AQC.

 

...and when did hand and arm signals become "tactical?"

[UH60L-IP]

No offense taken here by anyone.

 

Let me clarify - terrain flight planning/actions on contact/multiaircraft ops are not 1000 series tasks. They are, however, taught in flight school which was my overall point.

 

....hand and arms signals being tactical, well yes. I'm not talking about being directed onto the ramp by my FBO parking attendant. I'm talking about the interaction of crew members with ground troops in LZs, sling loads, etc.

[Velocity173]

No offense taken here by anyone.

 

Let me clarify - terrain flight planning/actions on contact/multiaircraft ops are not 1000 series tasks. They are, however, taught in flight school which was my overall point.

 

....hand and arms signals being tactical, well yes. I'm not talking about being directed onto the ramp by my FBO parking attendant. I'm talking about the interaction of crew members with ground troops in LZs, sling loads, etc.

Understand. That's what I thought you meant. Just didn't know if things have changed since I was in.

[Hotdogs]

No offense taken here by anyone.

 

Let me clarify - terrain flight planning/actions on contact/multiaircraft ops are not 1000 series tasks. They are, however, taught in flight school which was my overall point.

 

....hand and arms signals being tactical, well yes. I'm not talking about being directed onto the ramp by my FBO parking attendant. I'm talking about the interaction of crew members with ground troops in LZs, sling loads, etc.

 

Got it. No worries. Remember I'm also not a assault dude, so my hand and arm signals comprise of telling ordies to arm/dearm my aircraft, maybe a break up, or some other contingency. Not really a big tactical event for us either.