Military to Civilian Lessons Learned

[Spike]

One of the benefits of being ex-military is; a number of state and federal government agencies have Veterans preference laws which they must abide by. These laws provide benefits to Vets which civilians cannot get. Specifically, as long as you meet the minimum requirements, Vets are automatically “first pooled” regardless of past experience. On the other hand, the best a civilian can hope for is “second pool" ala, never going to happen.....

Edited February 23, 2016 by Spike

[Wally]

You don't need an FAA/anything approved logbook for flight time. What you need is a "reliable record" in any format, modern spreadsheets are wonderful things. Reliable means, among other things, that you record the information in a timely fashion. Do it regularly, print it occasionally and sign it. I know pilots who enter attestations of accuracy with the signature, but I've never had any of my records questioned. Expect to show paper at some point.

 

Enter leg lengths and other specifics as you necessary. Different certs and different jobs have different definitions. Mostly, you need to log leg lengths, other specifics for the FAA. Job descriptions that say minimum XC usually don't much care if the XC was 10 miles or a 210. Spreadsheets ROCK!

 

Know that all the columns don't have to sum to any specific, for instance all my PIC and SIC don't equal my TT, there's instruction received in the mix. I don't grock RL1 or other modern military terms, so I can't translate those, but the FAA definition of PIC is pretty clear. I didn't have any doubt about logging PIC whether I had aircraft commander orders or not- If I'm responsible and stirring the stick I'm logging PIC.

[CharyouTree]

Wally, for the record, RL is readiness level. When you get to your unit, you get an eval flight, and most likely coming from flight school, you're RL3. Base level tasks... hovering flight, slope landings, whatever. You only fly with an IP. RL2, you can fly with a PC, but only in tasks you've been evaluated on, in addition to those base tasks. Now you're working on "mission tasks". Multi-ship, sling loads, what have you.

 

RL1, you're a mission-ready pilot. Your next goal is PC. Which is why some people say you can log all that time as PIC; you're theoretically in a training program. (PCs are supposed to be the primary unit trainer, so... it adds up). Me personally... I went with hands-on time from the point I got out of flight school.

[napoleonpp]

Wally, for the record, RL is readiness level. When you get to your unit, you get an eval flight, and most likely coming from flight school, you're RL3. Base level tasks... hovering flight, slope landings, whatever. You only fly with an IP. RL2, you can fly with a PC, but only in tasks you've been evaluated on, in addition to those base tasks. Now you're working on "mission tasks". Multi-ship, sling loads, what have you.

 

RL1, you're a mission-ready pilot. Your next goal is PC. Which is why some people say you can log all that time as PIC; you're theoretically in a training program. (PCs are supposed to be the primary unit trainer, so... it adds up). Me personally... I went with hands-on time from the point I got out of flight school.

Yeah that's what I'm leaning towards. Logging just my stick time as PIC while I'm a PI.

[01CelicaGTS]

I don't think that logging flight time as PIC once you are RL1 really checks out.

 

One of the things that you "missed out on" getting your commercial license on the Military's dime as opposed to going to a civilian flight school is interpreting the FARs. I remember going to multiple classes at my civilian flight school when I was getting my commercial license that were all about how to interpret and read the FARs. These classes included case studies and were meant to keep you out of trouble.

 

Anyway, this is why I think it doesn't work...

 

61.51(e)(1) - this is talking about logging PIC Time. Everything until 61.51(e)(2) applies to this topic.

61.51(e)(1)(iv) - This is the part we're talking about. First off, it says "when the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command." Were you really performing the duties of pilot in command on every flight since you made RL1? Or were you being a good PI? Maybe you were, I know I don't. If I was, I'd be stepping on the PCs toes. Let's assume you were and continue on.

 

61.41(e)(1)(iv)© - "The supervising PIC holds-"

"(1) A commercial pilot certificate AND flight instructor certificate, and the aircraft rating...."

OR

"(2) An ATP certificate and aircraft rating...."

AND (I'll get the AND in a second).

 

I don't know about you, but I know very few Army pilots that hold a CFI certificate or ATP certificate. Even most IPs don't hold a CFI certificate. Now let's assume you interpret that to mean that an Army IP holds a "flight instructor certificate" since they are certified by the Army. I'm pretty sure that every flight since RL1 was not with an IP. I rarely fly with IPs. Maybe you always do.....let's continue.

 

Getting back to the "AND" I mentioned above. The AND specifies that ©(1) or ©(2) in addition to (D) must be met.

 

AND

"(D) The supervising pilot in command logs the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook, certifies the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook and attests to that certification with his or her signature, and flight instructor certificate number."

 

So even if you met ©(1) or ©(2) (flying with an CFI/IP or a pilot with an ATP), you would also have to meed (D). I've NEVER had an Army pilot sign anything in my logbook.

 

 

So...maybe every flight since RL1 was with an IP AND you were performing PC duties AND they signed and attested to the training in your logbook. If that's the case, then I apologize. You can in fact log it as PIC.

 

 

EDIT: It changed all of my C's with parentheses to ©. Don't know how to fix that.

Edited February 24, 2016 by 01CelicaGTS

[CharyouTree]

I don't think that logging flight time as PIC once you are RL1 really checks out.

 

One of the things that you "missed out on" getting your commercial license on the Military's dime as opposed to going to a civilian flight school is interpreting the FARs. I remember going to multiple classes at my civilian flight school when I was getting my commercial license that were all about how to interpret and read the FARs. These classes included case studies and were meant to keep you out of trouble.

 

Anyway, this is why I think it doesn't work...

 

61.51(e)(1) - this is talking about logging PIC Time. Everything until 61.51(e)(2) applies to this topic.

61.51(e)(1)(iv) - This is the part we're talking about. First off, it says "when the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command." Were you really performing the duties of pilot in command on every flight since you made RL1? Or were you being a good PI? Maybe you were, I know I don't. If I was, I'd be stepping on the PCs toes. Let's assume you were and continue on.

 

61.41(e)(1)(iv)© - "The supervising PIC holds-"

"(1) A commercial pilot certificate AND flight instructor certificate, and the aircraft rating...."

OR

"(2) An ATP certificate and aircraft rating...."

AND (I'll get the AND in a second).

 

I don't know about you, but I know very few Army pilots that hold a CFI certificate or ATP certificate. Even most IPs don't hold a CFI certificate. Now let's assume you interpret that to mean that an Army IP holds a "flight instructor certificate" since they are certified by the Army. I'm pretty sure that every flight since RL1 was not with an IP. I rarely fly with IPs. Maybe you always do.....let's continue.

 

Getting back to the "AND" I mentioned above. The AND specifies that ©(1) or ©(2) in addition to (D) must be met.

 

AND

"(D) The supervising pilot in command logs the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook, certifies the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook and attests to that certification with his or her signature, and flight instructor certificate number."

 

So even if you met ©(1) or ©(2) (flying with an CFI/IP or a pilot with an ATP), you would also have to meed (D). I've NEVER had an Army pilot sign anything in my logbook.

 

 

So...maybe every flight since RL1 was with an IP AND you were performing PC duties AND they signed and attested to the training in your logbook. If that's the case, then I apologize. You can in fact log it as PIC.

 

 

EDIT: It changed all of my C's with parentheses to ©. Don't know how to fix that.

 

I'd agree with most of this.

 

I know in my unit just about every flight for the PIs, *especially* when there was an IP aboard, was a "PC training" flight. The biggest heartache I'd have is that there's not necessarily an "approved training plan" which stops it there, for me.

 

Honestly, it's easier to just not worry about it, and only log the time that you were on the controls. If you know you manipulated the controls the whole flight, log the whole thing. If you didn't, either estimate, or split it 50/50. I'd say split any that were "back and forth" 50/50. I know there were some flights I didn't touch the controls because I was managing (while I was the PI), so...I didn't log any PIC.

 

Again...do what feels right to you, if the regs back it up. But also know what you're talking about if you're asked. No one can question "sole manipulator of the flight controls".

[napoleonpp]

Ok thanks for that. That's what I thought as well, just wanted to verify I was correct. One more question. All of flight school will be logged as "Dual Received" correct?

[Lindsey]

Ok thanks for that. That's what I thought as well, just wanted to verify I was correct. One more question. All of flight school will be logged as "Dual Received" correct?

If you don't already hold a PPL-H or higher before starting flight school, yes.

[napoleonpp]

Sweet that's what I thought. I'm redoing my logbooks so wanted to ensure I was doing it all right this time. Thanks!

[adam32]

Ok thanks for that. That's what I thought as well, just wanted to verify I was correct. One more question. All of flight school will be logged as "Dual Received" correct?

Solo time of course won't be dual, it'll be solo/PIC.

[eagle5]

Solo time of course won't be dual, it'll be solo/PIC.

Do you guys actually fly alone, or do you just pretend the dude sitting next to you isn't there?

[napoleonpp]

Do you guys actually fly alone, or do you just pretend the dude sitting next to you isn't there?

In the military? During Flight School, towards the very beginning we do our "Solo." We do it with our stick buddy, the guy your going through flight school with, in the helicopter beside you. So it's basically like your by yourself haha

[eagle5]

In the military? During Flight School, towards the very beginning we do our "Solo." We do it with our stick buddy, the guy your going through flight school with, in the helicopter beside you. So it's basically like your by yourself haha

We have to be the sole occupant of the aircraft. Gives us something to look forward to, i.e. kicking the instructors fat ass out so we can see what a 22 can really do!

[Lindsey]

Solo time of course won't be dual, it'll be solo/PIC.

We don't do any true solo at Rucker. "Solo" is with your stick buddy. But you're right, you can log PIC but not solo.

[iChris]

I don't know about you, but I know very few Army pilots that hold a CFI certificate or ATP certificate. Even most IPs don't hold a CFI certificate.

 

Now let's assume you interpret that to mean that an Army IP holds a "flight instructor certificate" since they are certified by the Army. I'm pretty sure that every flight since RL1 was not with an IP. I rarely fly with IPs. Maybe you always do.....let's continue.

 

Under FAR §61.51 there are only four ways that you can log pilot in command time. The fourth (iv) option is not applicable to your situation, since the requirements for an approved training program cannot be met based on most units lack of properly certified instructors.

 

That leaves three viable options, [e] 1 (i) (ii) or (iii)

 

The following may also be relevant:

We would consider you rated in the aircraft, which in the civilian version (Boeing 707) requires a type rating, by virtue of having completed the pilot proficiency check. Thus, in evaluating your military flight time, we would treat the time as PIC time under section 61.51(e)(1)(i).

 

Legal Interpretations & Chief Counsel's Opinions - Morris 2006

 

 

§61.51 Pilot logbooks

 

[e] Logging pilot-in-command flight time.

 

(1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

 

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

 

(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;

 

(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; or

 

(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided—

 

[A] The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate;

 

The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command is undergoing an approved pilot in command training program that includes ground and flight training on the following areas of operation—

 

 

§61.1 Applicability and definitions

For the purpose of this part:

 

Flight training means that training, other than ground training, received from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft.

 

Ground training means that training, other than flight training, received from an authorized instructor.

 

Authorized instructor means—

(i) A person who holds a ground instructor certificate issued under part 61 of this chapter and is in compliance with §61.217, when conducting ground training in accordance with the privileges and limitations of his or her ground instructor certificate;

 

(ii) A person who holds a flight instructor certificate issued under part 61 of this chapter and is in compliance with §61.197, when conducting ground training or flight training in accordance with the privileges and limitations of his or her flight instructor certificate; or

 

(iii) A person authorized by the Administrator to provide ground training or flight training under part 61, 121, 135, or 142 of this chapter when conducting ground training or flight training in accordance with that authority. (note: An ATP holder can instruct under Part 61.167)

Edited February 25, 2016 by iChris

[iChris]

Error: SEE POST #40

Edited February 25, 2016 by iChris

[Lindsey]

So, you can log PIC in your civilian logbook when you are either:

 

1) Signed for the aircraft as PC, or:

2) Sole manipulator of the flight controls

 

Log it when you're PC, and log whatever time you were on the controls when you are the PI.

[iChris]

So, you can log PIC in your civilian logbook when you are either:

 

1) Signed for the aircraft as PC, or:

2) Sole manipulator of the flight controls

 

Log it when you're PC, and log whatever time you were on the controls when you are the PI.

 

It's easy, only four viable options....... However, you need to fully read the text

 

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

 

(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;

 

(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; or

 

(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided—

 

[A] The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate;

 

The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command is undergoing an approved pilot in command training program that includes ground and flight training on the following areas of operation—

 

Note: The legal interpretation of the term "rated," as used in section 61.51 (e), refers to the pilot holding the appropriate aircraft ratings (category, class, and type, if a type rating is required).

 

Logging PIC vs. Acting as PIC is another area you can investigate:

Legal Interpretations & Chief Counsel's Opinions - 2009/Herman

Legal Interpretations & Chief Counsel's Opinions - 2011/Walker

Legal Interpretations & Chief Counsel's Opinions - 2009/Speranza

Edited February 25, 2016 by iChris

[Lindsey]

iChris, forgive me, it's been a long day. Are you saying my interpretation is correct, or that there is arguably another opportunity to log PIC?

[CharyouTree]

 

It's easy, only four viable options....... However, you need to fully read the text

 

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

 

(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;

 

(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; or

 

(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided—

 

[A] The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate;

 

The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command is undergoing an approved pilot in command training program that includes ground and flight training on the following areas of operation—

 

Note: The legal interpretation of the term "rated," as used in section 61.51 (e), refers to the pilot holding the appropriate aircraft ratings (category, class, and type, if a type rating is required).

 

Right... As Army pilots (with the exception of S&S/RAID units in the guard still using the -58A/C) we're never sole occupant. That's out. Leaving us (i), and (iii). I don't know how you're NOT the sole manipulator when you're on the controls, unless you're only operating the pedals... (I'll ignore 5-10 seconds here and there for less capable PIs when the PC follows along...).

 

So, once you graduate flight school, you're rated, whether you get your MCE complete or not.

 

On the controls after flight school, (i) applies, and when you're actually acting as the PIC, (iii) applies. Our operations require more than one pilot under the the regulations which the flight is conducted, so (iii) applies.

 

Is there something that we're not seeing?

Edited February 25, 2016 by CharyouTree

[iChris]

iChris, forgive me, it's been a long day. Are you saying my interpretation is correct, or that there is arguably another opportunity to log PIC?

 

 

1) Signed for the aircraft as PC, or:

2) Sole manipulator of the flight controls

Your number 1 and 2 were a bit incomplete in their context; however, if they fit with any of the four options below, they are correct.

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;

(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; or

(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided—

The legal interpretation of the term "rated," as used in section 61.51 (e), refers to the pilot holding the appropriate aircraft ratings (category, class, and type, if a type rating is required)

Edited February 25, 2016 by iChris

[Lindsey]

 

 

1) Signed for the aircraft as PC, or:

2) Sole manipulator of the flight controls

Your number 1 and 2 were a bit incomplete in their context; however, if they fit with any of the four options below, they are correct.

 

They do fit. I wasn't making it incomplete, I was making it succinct. Any Blackhawk pilot would fall under those two things.

[iChris]

 

Right... As Army pilots (with the exception of S&S/RAID units in the guard still using the -58A/C) we're never sole occupant. That's out. Leaving us (i), and (iii). I don't know how you're NOT the sole manipulator when you're on the controls, unless you're only operating the pedals... (I'll ignore 5-10 seconds here and there for less capable PIs when the PC follows along...).

 

So, once you graduate flight school, you're rated, whether you get your MCE complete or not.

 

On the controls after flight school, (i) applies, and when you're actually acting as the PIC, (iii) applies. Our operations require more than one pilot under the the regulations which the flight is conducted, so (iii) applies.

 

Is there something that we're not seeing?

 

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

 

The legal interpretation of the term "rated," as used in section 61.51 (e), refers to the pilot holding the appropriate aircraft ratings (category, class, and type, if a type rating is required)

 

However, in a legal interpretation, a military pilot that completes a proficiency check in the aircraft is in fact rated in that aircraft and is allowed to log PIC time for the time he is the sole manipulator of the controls. The chief counsel was intentionally vague on the term proficiency check. So any proficiency check that allowed you to fly the aircraft, was authorization giving you privileges in that aircraft. Therefore, rated and allowed to logged PIC time for the time you were sole manipulator of the controls

 

We would consider you rated in the aircraft, which in the civilian version (Boeing 707) requires a type rating, by virtue of having completed the pilot proficiency check. Thus, in evaluating your military flight time, we would treat the time as PIC time under section 61.51(e)(1)(i).

Legal Interpretations & Chief Counsel's Opinions - Morris 2006

Edited February 25, 2016 by iChris

[CharyouTree]

 

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

 

The legal interpretation of the term "rated," as used in section 61.51 (e), refers to the pilot holding the appropriate aircraft ratings (category, class, and type, if a type rating is required)

 

However, in a legal interpretation, a military pilot that completes a proficiency check in the aircraft is in fact rated in that aircraft and is allowed to log PIC time for the time he is the sole manipulator of the controls. The chief counsel was intentionally vague on the term proficiency check. So any proficiency check that allowed you to fly the aircraft, was authorization giving you privileges in that aircraft. Therefore, rated and allowed to logged PIC time for the time you were sole manipulator of the controls

 

We would consider you rated in the aircraft, which in the civilian version (Boeing 707) requires a type rating, by virtue of having completed the pilot proficiency check. Thus, in evaluating your military flight time, we would treat the time as PIC time under section 61.51(e)(1)(i).

Legal Interpretations & Chief Counsel's Opinions - Morris 2006

 

Current Flight school XXI model doesn't have the student pilot acting as a rated aviator until the completion of the advanced aircraft. e.g. Blackhawk. Despite the fact that we have completed a checkride or three in the TH-67 (or whatever), we're still considered student pilots. Under the previous model, you graduated and received your wings, and then went onto an AQC, aircraft qual course, to get the training in Blackhawk, Chinook, etc. Student pilot, no PIC. Further, there hasn't been a "proficiency check", either. I'm giving training flights the entire time, up until a stage check is given, to equate it to part 141, to pass them along to the next phase. Still in training, not a proficiency check.

 

Again, under the current model, we're not rated in anything until graduation. If you were to fail/get kicked out of flight school a day before graduation, you get nothing. You don't have any flight records to take to a FSDO and get a rating. You can say you logged X amount of time, but if you were to then go to a Part 61 school, you're going to have to get 40 hours before you got your private certificate, because it's not real time until you graduate and get your flight records and completion certificate. You're being instructed by civilian CFIs (and/or military IPs) but not one of them will sign your logbook for anything.

 

From that legal interpretation:

"The pertinent facts you provided are that you are a rated military pilot..."

Edited February 25, 2016 by CharyouTree

[zippiesdrainage]

I like the spin of this thread