low time employment

[mattcob]

having read some discussion about low time pilots on here recently having to become employable as cfi, it is leaving me wondering, as a low time pilot, if you really dont want to teach people and genuinely want to try and get straight into the industry can it be done?? are any of the bigger companies training people from scratch or taking on low time pilots and training them internally, and if so what are they asking for to make a student look attractive to them, for example, lets just say you have left one of the bigger more accredited schools in the country and you have your cpl, instrument ticket, sling, mountain, some turbine time and maybe even invested in a factory course with eurocopter or bell, are there any companies in the world who would think that this person would be worth talking to?? or are you really forced to go down the cfi route and get the magic 1000hrs??? does anybody out there know of the alternatives that exist??? i would like to hear from companies out there like air log, phi, chc,era to hear what they are doing to train people up with the pilot shortage that is looming or if they are even at all training anyone!!! i understand that insurance companies play a very big part in all of this and what employers can take on, i would also like to hear from anyone who has managed to pull it all off and get a job without having to become a cfi!!!!!! is the industry changing at all with the pilot shortfalls that are occuring??

 

i have to say that i am a low time pilot who luckily has no problem with teaching people and i have a job as a cfi, but i can completely understand that teaching is not for everyone, but if you dont take that route your F@#$$D

 

i look forward to your comments!!!

 

blue skies

 

matt

[Guest rookie101]

I recall this thread that talks about time building in helicopters. This is the only thread i remember now, but I am sure there is at least one more. (ah, can't recall S@#%, my age is getting to me :lol: )

 

http://www.helicoptertimebuilding.com/

[West Coaster]

Also can depend on where you're looking for employment. No such thing as a low time helicopter instructor in Canada, so here you're first flying job will be an operational one.

 

And though many operators advertise for 1500+ hours, some will take people with far less.

[HH60Pilot]

Matt,

 

You are correct in stating that the insurance companies play a very big part in the hour requirements. In fact, until you get several thousand hours of flying time, you are going to find that in this country they control most every requirement that you will have to meet to get a job. The only time that I've seen an advertisement for a non-CFI position for a pilot with less than 1,000 hours was for a pipeline patrol job in Texas. They were flying R44 and required a minimum of 500 hours. Still better than 1,000 hours, but unless you have a rich uncle, where are you going to get the money to buy 500 hours of helicopter time. I don't remember how many hours of R44 time that they needed, but I seem to remember it was more than what SFAR73 calls for.

 

Speaking of a rich uncle...Uncle Sam has jobs for helicopter pilots and he will even pay you while you train. No previous experience required and all you have to do is make a small commitment of your time to help keep the world free from all those godless commies out there.

 

The reality is, unless you join the military, you are probably looking at working as a CFI to get to that magical 1,000 hour point.

 

Just my two-cents.

 

Doug

[RebellionRoots]

Is it that bad to be a CFI? I haven't started yet but plan on being a CFI for at least a year to get the hours. But the tone I seem to be picking up is that the ONLY reason to be a CFI is to get hours.

 

The CFI's I have flown with seem to have fun teaching. 'Specially the pilot over at Helicopter Services (where I have decided to go). Granted until I have actually started, and even after to a lesser extent, they are in a salesman type roll.

 

Does the overtone simply come from the fact that it is just another stepping stone to get to where we all really want to be (beyond 1500 hours)?

[Whirlwind]

I imagine the teaching itself isn't the bad thing - in fact, it could be very rewarding.

The problem is that after learning to fly and avoiding killing myself, now I'll have the student trying to kill me!!

[Skids Up]

No such thing as a low time helicopter instructor in Canada, so here you're first flying job will be an operational one.

 

T'is a good thing...

 

Always find it interesting that down there, you are not considered "safe" (not enough hours) enough to be hired, yet you can teach others to be in the same "unsafe" (not enough hours) group.

[DukeChin]

Speaking of a rich uncle...Uncle Sam has jobs for helicopter pilots and he will even pay you while you train. No previous experience required and all you have to do is make a small commitment of your time to help keep the world free from all those godless commies out there.

 

The reality is, unless you join the military, you are probably looking at working as a CFI to get to that magical 1,000 hour point.

As the ripe "old" age of 30 fast approaches, I'm still kicking myself for not having gone this route.

[HH60Pilot]

As the ripe "old" age of 30 fast approaches, I'm still kicking myself for not having gone this route.

 

A buddy of mine is at Ft Rucker now on an age waiver worked through the National Guard. Contact your local Army Guard aviation unit and see what they say. Just be sure to talk to someone in the chain of command in the flying unit and not just to a recruiter.

 

The worst they can say is "No" and they don't have a chance to say "Yes" if you never ask the question.

 

Doug

[mattcob]

hello again!!!

 

please dont get me wrong i do really enjoy teaching!!!!!!!!!!! i must confess that i do find it a bit bizarre that a pilot with no experience is allowed to teach new people to fly, but i must confess that since i became a cfi i have learnt more than i was taught at school ten fold, everything seems to fall in place when you suddenly have to start teaching it to somebody yourself!!!

 

i personally find myself getting frustrated with the industry when i know i have plenty of friends who are perfectly capable of being good pilots spending a small fortune on getting qualified, training in the states, unable to find work at either the end of their initial training or staying the full two years on a j1 visa, not quite getting the majic 1000 and returning to their home countries watching their dream slip away along with a huge personal investment, there are only so many schools to get jobs with, and not every school that a new cfi will get a job with can provide the employee with a 1000hrs, there are only a few schools in the states than can do this!!

 

it is while i see all this going on that i see so many jobs with companies quoting the minimum hours to get people in the vacancies, constantly hearing of pilot shortages on chopper magazines, forum, and companies i have visited, the list goes on. yet i never hear of anybody doing anything really about it!! i do hear the occasional rumour that some of the big companies are taking on low time people and training them up but its like an urban myth, we all know somebody who heard some thing but never anything concrete!!!!!!

 

i have personally written to air log and bristows to ask for any info about "rumours" i had heard and nobody has ever written back to me.

 

as for joining the forces i personally think it is an excellent route for young people to go anyway, being an ex soldier myself, i wish i could have had my training paid for by the british army!!!

 

as for my initial title, i hope it would never give the impression that i am an unhappy cfi or moaning about things, i think this career is the most rewarding and challenging thing i have ever done and love it all!!! i just get frustrated when i see what is going on in the industry!!

 

all the best

 

matt

[Flyfisherman79]

It really does seem to be a Catch 22.

 

I've spent a great deal of time thinking about this very subject. Realistically, you can risk bankruptcy in going the CFI route as they dont pay (which seems to be the trend, industry wide). Having said that, there are some young folks out there who are going through that can get by on CFI alone (probably able to live with their parents, or some other arrangement). Some of us couldn't fly for the military, but can fly for the civilian world. The military requirements will not change, so for some flying military is never going to happen. The dream of flying helicopters is a powerful thing, however good decisions is what will keep you alive in the air. However, you are forced to make a far riskier decision on the ground. Flying helicopters is top notch, but forcing yourself into bankruptcy before you ever get there is not a "sound decision" any way you slice it.

 

The insurance companies run the industry. They have a 1000 hours as the magic mark because until you have a 1000 hours you can't fly worth a darn. However, you do have a bunch of 300 hour pilots that are setting the standard in the industry. The companies say they cant get good pilots. Do the math on that one!

 

My personal thought on this is if you finish flight school and still need 1000 hours no matter what, what is the more beneficial use of time. How many hours does a CFI actually spend manipulating the controls in their acheiveing the 1000 hours VS getting that 1000 hours flying the entire time as the sole manipulator. You may not be a great teacher, you will have varying degrees of understanding the inner most workings of aerodynamics, etc. How can anyone say that the CFI is a better pilot. The CFI gets to LOG the time, but the CFI isnt spending that entire 1000 hours FLYING the aircraft.

 

I could go one but I gotta head off to school....

[amenra]

The term that I have heard thru diferrent vocations "Those that can't, TEACH"

 

This seems to be the standard in our chosen obsession. But consider this; True, at the beginning of a CFI's career, they hopefully have the skills to understand why certain things happen but not necessarily the experience to counteract or stop or explain to the new student the why, where or how to keep things from happening. Now here is the catch 22. Unless the new CFI was taught by an experienced pilot who knew how to pass on the knowledge and not by another less experienced one, you perpetuate the cycle.

 

Hence the most likely reason why insurance companies are requiring hours. But if those hours are just fluff of low time pilots teaching other low time pilots the bad habits, where do we go from there.

 

In law enforcement where I hope to end up flying, we go thru the academy then once we graduate we are then put thru a field training program. Here is the timetable: In Florida we get between 500 to 700 hours in the academy and then go to a field training program that will encompass another 300 to 400 hours before we are cut loose. But once you are cut loose, you will still have more experienced officers showing up on your calls just to "help" if needed. You don't get that luxery in helicopters.

 

Both jobs are extremely dangerous and will cost people thier lives if a mistake is made. The big difference is that before you can become an instructor for the police academy, you must have a minimum time of experience.

 

I searched out different schools and spoke with the instructors. I even spoke with the owner and found that he does not hire pilots that are punching thier ticket but truely love to teach. Time will tell if that is the case, but the owner does teach and has more than enough hours experience, he is an ATP with a major airline. He has instructors on staff that fly EMS, ones that own their own Turbine chopper and others that fly outside of the school. He does have new CFI's as well that are put thru their paces by the senior instructors before they start to actually fly with students. He makes them teach ground school to start. Now I know that my school may not be the typical scenario, but that was why I chose them.

 

This post is not intended to take anything away from new CFI's and I hope that I did not offend anyone or diminish the trials and tribulations you had to go thru to get where you are at. Just my observations on how this messed up system keeps people from achieving thier dreams.

 

Only time will tell where I end up and how long it takes for me to get there. I hopefully will be able to be an on call instructor when that time comes to be able to one day pass on any experience that I may have. Til that day comes, keep the spinning side up.

[Gomer Pylot]

The big drawback to being a CFI, as I see it, is the low pay. I suspect many CFIs would do it long-term if the pay were better, but students want the training as cheaply as possible, so they get about what they pay for - low-time instructors who are paid a pittance while looking for another job. We're hiring a lot of former CFIs, and it can be interesting. Some of them are really proud of being a CFI, and think that being one means they know it all. They forget that many of the pilots down here have been doing this job longer than they've been alive, and maybe longer than their mamas have been alive. This certainly doesn't apply to all of them, but definitely to some.

[tonymont]

The big drawback to being a CFI, as I see it, is the low pay. I suspect many CFIs would do it long-term if the pay were better, but students want the training as cheaply as possible...

 

As a student right now, I definitely understand the idea of keeping training costs to a minimum. But really, the portion of training costs that covers the CFI's wage is only a small portion of what students pay.

 

The majority of training cost is the helicopter time. Figure for an hour of training, a student pays about $220 per hour (give or take depending on the school). That includes the helicopter plus the CFI. And figure you can rent a helicopter for solo time for around $200 per hour (give or take...) That means the student pays only about $20 per hour for the CFI, representing less than 10% of the total cost.

 

Seems like there could (should?) be a wage hike for the CFI's of, say $10-15 per hour. Not that this would make CFI's rich, but it would definitely help make a living, while increasing the student's total training costs only by $2,000-$3,000 for 200 hours of training. Again, I'm a struggling student and don't want increased costs. But being a student is temporary, whereas being a CFI could be a long-term career, if not for the lousy pay.

 

For me, if I had the choice of:

pay $60K for 200 hours of training and then be a CFI making $20 per hour, or pay $65K for 200 hours of training and then be a CFI making $35 per hour...

I'd choose the latter.

 

Unfortunately, if flight school owners knew students were willing to pay a little bit more for training, they probably wouldn't give it to the CFI's, but would just keep it for themselves, claiming they don't make enough either.

[dav]

You hit that one right on the nail!! It's the owners who keep the prices the way they are..... yeah sure; you have insurance cost, renting, blah,blah.... but the only reason the price is the way it is for flt trng and cfi pay, is because that's just more profit for the owners. They say what they can to get you in, knowing you'll just be struggling at the end. Take for example, the flght school that most pilots dislike; How can they justify charging that amount for their trng?? But, is the owner of a competing school going to say anything???? HELL NO!! Why!!! More money = More PROFIT!!. Unfortuneately, I'm one of those low time, unsafe pilots, out-there; and your right I'm trying to get by. Don't mean to sound bitter but, I'm just tired of the BS. "The industry needs pilot.", no they need experienced pilots. Where was the article on that when I signed the loan documents?

[eagle5]

8 years go by and nothing really changes does it? What will things be like in 8 more years?

[avbug]

 

it is while i see all this going on that i see so many jobs with companies quoting the minimum hours to get people in the vacancies, constantly hearing of pilot shortages on chopper magazines, forum, and companies i have visited, the list goes on. yet i never hear of anybody doing anything really about it!! i do hear the occasional rumour that some of the big companies are taking on low time people and training them up but its like an urban myth, we all know somebody who heard some thing but never anything concrete!!!!!!

 

 

 

The "urban myth" is that there is a pilot shortage. There isn't.

 

Divorce yourself of that fallacy, and the picture becomes a lot clearer. If you want to be employed as a pilot, you need the employer. The employer does NOT need you. The employer can't use you, either, until you make yourself qualified, and the employer has no need to do that, given a ready supply of qualified pilots. When you come to the table hat in hand looking for work, it is expected that you'll arrive ready to go to work, not in need of hours and ratings and training.

 

Flight instruction isn't an unpleasant task to be endured, something go get past in order to get at your real career. For some, it's a long time vocation, and for many, it's something to which we return again and again. In fact, check airman is an advanced qualification at many operations that pays over and above regular pilot salaries. I've applied to quite a few operators over the years that wanted me to have instructor certification, and I've done instruction above the primary level on various occasions ranging from simulator and classroom training to check airman work, line captain or line training work, standardization and evaluation, etc. It's not something that you do at the beginning of your career and leave behind. Try not to view it that way. It's an opportunity, and trying to bypass it to get on with your "real career" is missing out on a lot of growth, insight, richness and experience that will benefit you in the long run (especially if you hope to spend time in a crew environment some day).

[Spike]

It's worked this long, why change a thing? Hopefully, in this case, nothing changes……

Edited November 13, 2014 by Spike

[adam32]

8 years go by and nothing really changes does it? What will things be like in 8 more years?

 

 

It was going on long long before 8 years ago when this thread was started and long before Jerry even thought about opening a flight school. In 8 more years it will be the same thing except CFI's will be flying Chinese built helicopters.

[Whistler]

 

 

It was going on long long before 8 years ago when this thread was started and long before Jerry even thought about opening a flight school. In 8 more years it will be the same thing except CFI's will be flying Chinese built helicopters.

chinese made helicopters aren't as scary to me as they are to a lot of older folk. they made 80% of the worlds cell phones and something like 70% of the worlds air conditioning systems. they have a lot of skilled laborers and a lot of very intelligent engineers. Their industrial revolution is at hand and they will be producing some very quality products in the near future. I for one, hope they include quality helicopters.

[adam32]

chinese made helicopters aren't as scary to me as they are to a lot of older folk. they made 80% of the worlds cell phones and something like 70% of the worlds air conditioning systems. they have a lot of skilled laborers and a lot of very intelligent engineers. Their industrial revolution is at hand and they will be producing some very quality products in the near future. I for one, hope they include quality helicopters.

 

Have you seen any that they currently build? Straight copies of other models, same with their vehicles, they just copy what another company has already built. And they are terrible at even copying them.

 

I won't step foot in one, their steel and composite materials suck. A cell phone is a replaceable item and for the most part they are all junk. A human life isn't replaceable.

[Whistler]

 

Have you seen any that they currently build? Straight copies of other models, same with their vehicles, they just copy what another company has already built. And they are terrible at even copying them.

 

I won't step foot in one, their steel and composite materials suck. A cell phone is a replaceable item and for the most part they are all junk. A human life isn't replaceable.

Well that's why the US has the certification requirements it does. If it passes muster for FAA certification I won't have a problem with it just because it's chinese.

[eagle5]

It was going on long long before 8 years ago when this thread was started and long before Jerry even thought about opening a flight school. In 8 more years it will be the same thing except CFI's will be flying Chinese built helicopters.

I have to wonder what a Chinese version of the r22 would be like?

[Flying Pig]

It fry wrong time one tank gas

[aeroscout]

It fry wrong time one tank gas

Hu is the pilot ?