Refusing to give up!

[Cyrak]

There are people who have had it far easier than me. Yet, I think it is a weakness to begrudge those people. I would not discourage anyone to use any means to reach their goal, simply because I couldn't / didn't do it myself. For if I was in their shoes, I would probably do the same.

 

There is a way of offering advice and opinions (without molly-coddling) which does not require belittlement. Some need to learn that.

 

While your methods are not the way I would have proceded, your desire and determination, seen by the lengths you are going, are quite facinating.

 

If you want my honest opinion, I think you are a little 'aimless' at the moment.

 

I see absolutely no reason for you to apologize. I apologize for taking so long to respond to your post - unfortunately, I was dealing with others.

 

I appreciate your taking the time to read what I have written with an open mind, and put your time and energy into a well written, intelligent and insightful response. I understand exactly what you are saying - I see myself precisely the way you explain it, both the strengths and the weaknesses. I am very much "aimless" right now, for many reasons, and I do not take offense to the term at all, because it is very accurate. I think a part of me is looking to this "dream" to give me direction, but since I cannot seem to make any progress on it, I am having trouble deciding which direction to go. When you spend eight years in one career, and finally figure out it is not the right path, it is very discouraging to know that you have essentially wasted that time, and you find yourself reluctant to risk wasting more, especially at my age. I have, as you suggested, started a new job, which, if nothing else, will be stable and allow me to set up a budget and try to pay off my debts. But the thought of spending years trying to "save up" and perhaps not accomplishing much in the end, is daunting.

 

Your suggestions are well thought out and realistic. I have considered these ideas, especially working some menial job just to get my foot in the door of the field. Right now, however, it is more important for me to focus on getting secure in my new job before I try to take on another. It is encouraging to me when someone says that the correct path might initially be "in the opposite direction", because that is just what it feels like sometimes, and it is good to know that this does not necessarily mean you are on the wrong path.

 

I admire people like you (and Voltaire) who, while they may not understand or agree with someone's choices, will still defend their right to make them without being attacked or discouraged by others.

 

Much respect.

Edited September 18, 2007 by Cyrak

[Cyrak]

I totally agree; this thread should be closed and deleted. All I have read from this person is what they are NOT willing to do to achieve goals...

 

If that is all you have read, then it is obvious you have only seen what you wanted to.

 

If the mods have read all of my posts, and truly believe I am "soliciting a handout", or spamming, or that I am causing a problem of any kind, then I absolutely agree that this thread should be deleted. It was never my intention to do any of those things, and if that is the perception, then I sincerely apologize.

 

Thank you again to everyone who offered their advice.

[67november]

If the mods have read all of my posts, and truly believe I am "soliciting a handout", or spamming, or that I am causing a problem of any kind, then I absolutely agree that this thread should be deleted. It was never my intention to do any of those things, and if that is the perception, then I sincerely apologize.

 

Thank you again to everyone who offered their advice.

 

I've read through this thread and have found to my disappointment that a majority of the post by the members are that of reaction to a snipit of a post that has raised their attention to only that point.

Cyrak has done an extremely good job at maintaining her composer to these post and I commend her for it.

I see no reason to close and/or delete this thread because other members have taken a narrow view of pieces of this thread and expounded on it in a manner that they interpet as what Cyrak originally asked.

We all have opinions on what we view about the world scene and what we will/can do about it.

 

Cyrak original post was asking for advise on options on how to raise/aquire funds to support her helicopter flight training, I suggest that further post be refrained to that subject.

 

Thank you.

 

67november

moderator

[clay]

I've read through this thread and have found to my disappointment that a majority of the post by the members are that of reaction to a snipit of a post that has raised their attention to only that point.

Cyrak has done an extremely good job at maintaining her composer to these post and I commend her for it.

I see no reason to close and/or delete this thread because other members have taken a narrow view of pieces of this thread and expounded on it in a manner that they interpet as what Cyrak originally asked.

We all have opinions on what we view about the world scene and what we will/can do about it.

 

Cyrak original post was asking for advise on options on how to raise/aquire funds to support her helicopter flight training, I suggest that further post be refrained to that subject.

 

Thank you.

 

67november

moderator

 

 

im with 67november on this one. she asked for advice on how to fund flight school, if you dont like her current method, give her a better one. it sounds to me like she is trying every road she can go down....

 

clay

 

just my .02

[Merc]

im with 67november on this one. she asked for advice on how to fund flight school, if you dont like her current method, give her a better one. it sounds to me like she is trying every road she can go down....

 

clay

 

just my .02

 

 

I agree Clay. At least she hasn't threatened to break your jaw, yet!

[Gerhardt]

"it sounds to me like she is trying every road she can go down"

 

yeah, well, except for the road involving actual work to pay her own way. But except for that...

[Gerhardt]

"it sounds to me like she is trying every road she can go down"

 

yeah, well, except for the road involving actual work to pay her own way. But except for that...

[bqmassey]

The problem is that there is a large deficit between the money you have and the money that training requires. You need to attack the problem from both sides. Simply put, try to increase the money you have while decreasing the cost of training.

 

Increasing cashflow is a desire that many, many people in our country have right now, regardless of what they need the money for. This has little to do with flying helicopters. Looking for advice on these forums about how to increase the amount of money you have is a waste of your time. You should query the resources that specialize in increasing cash. Look into Dave Ramsey, the Rich Dad, Poor Dad series, the books suggested by other members, and any of the numerous internet resources--there are a lot out there.

 

The other aspect, reducing the money required for training, is applicable to these forums. That's the advice that you should be looking for here. People here will be able to tell you about scholarships, grants, and other ways to reduce the amount of money that's going to be required. Where and in what ship you decide to train in will make a difference. Putting a lot of effort into studying videos and ground school material can help reduce the amount of hours it takes to work through your ratings. Find an employer that will contribute to flight training as an employee benefit, like Duncan Aviation. Consider getting your fixed-wing private first and transitioning. Maybe you could try to go all the way through fixed-wing commercial and save up the money for the helicopter add-ons while flying something and building up some hours. Maybe you could find a job with a flight school that provides discounted training to employees. That is the kind of advice you need to get from people here; they'll be able to offer better insight than I can (I'm in the same position you are).

 

Good luck,

 

Brandon

[fry]

Fry - What in the hell does SSH have to do with anything? Once again, you manage to crowbar your crussade into a thread where it is totally un-called for.

 

Actually, I saw a great deal that is similar in her approach to acquiring money with that of SSH. Both are using the sappy "live your dream" pitch to get into someone else's pocket. Also, my suggestion that she look into sales was genuine...sales can pay well and she seems to have a knack for making a pitch.

 

As far as her effort to solicit ideas for how to fund her training, she only appears to be open to the one...contributions from strangers. It's kind of like the guy on the corner with the "Will Work For Food" sign...you know he doesn't really want to work.

[Tenacious T]

It's kind of like the guy on the corner with the "Will Work For Food" sign...you know he doesn't really want to work.

 

I wonder if he would mow my lawn for a sandwich?

[clay]

"it sounds to me like she is trying every road she can go down"

 

yeah, well, except for the road involving actual work to pay her own way. But except for that...

 

 

alright, stupid people who dont read get me all stirred up... she is working! she has stated a MILLION times that. what she is looking for is finding a faster way! READ THE SH*T FIRST! then type..

 

clay

 

p.s. dont hit me for what i said please

Edited September 18, 2007 by clay

[Cyrak]

Alright. Enough about the money. I have a couple of questions pertaining to suggestions that people have made:

 

1) Many have said that they "worked their way through" flight training. I assume this means that they paid for each one as they went. I am 100% behind this - in fact, it was one of my first ideas. However, I was told by several people (some on this forum) that it was a waste of time and money to do it this way, because you learn much faster if you can go at least two or three times a week than if you can only go once a week or (more likely) once a month. IS THIS TRUE? Is it like a car loan, where you get to start enjoying the car now, but in the end, you have paid $30,000 for a car you could have gotten for $20,000 cash? Or in this case, paying $80,000 over five or six years instead of $50,000 over one or two?

 

2) Some have suggested learning fixed-wing first, then transitioning. On this one, I was told that a helicopter is very complicated to fly, and that the instinctive reactions you develop to problems are very different from those that would be called for in a plane, which, if you learn the plane first, can make it more difficult to become an expert at flying a helicopter. IS THIS TRUE? While I might someday be interested in owning and flying a small fixed-wing plane, I have no desire to do it as a career, so I would prefer to be better at flying helicopters, if I had to choose. It makes sense to me that whichever one you learned first would be the one most firmly ingrained in your mind and reactions. I realize that learning fixed wing is cheaper, but in the long run, when you compare fixed wing + helicopter transition to helicopter alone, figuring in the extra hours required to retrain any "bad habits" you might have learned in the plane - is it really worth it? If I'm going to do this at all, I want to be good at it. Are you a better pilot if you have only flown helicopters? Can anyone give me monetary comparisons on these things? How do the ratings compare (private, commercial, etc)? Most importantly, has anyone done this themselves? Looking back, would you do it again?

[Mike Murphy]

Going back and forth between fixed and rotary wing is not that big a deal. In the Navy, we all started out flying about 100 hours of fixed wing before transitioning to helos. After your first fleet tour (about 300 hrs of helo time) it is quite likely you can be offered orders back to the Training Command and instruct in fixed wing.

 

The thing is, fixed wing is just cheaper. You can go farther, faster, cheaper in a Cessna. Fixed wing will cost you less than $100 per hour to rent solo. In many cases the fixed wing experience directly transfers; navigation, communication, airfield operations. Being comfortable in the air is as important as stick-and-rudder.

 

Just my .02

[Gerhardt]

alright, stupid people who dont read get me all stirred up... she is working! she has stated a MILLION times that. what she is looking for is finding a faster way! READ THE SH*T FIRST! then type..

 

clay

 

Yeah, stupid people who don't read before posting get me stirred up too. Read what I wrote one more time. I never said she didn't have a job. What I DID say was that she isn't willing to work to pay her own way to gain valuable training.

 

One more thing, Clay. A million is an awfully big number. Are you sure you double checked that count? Of course, your name is Clay and you're from Houston so that may explain some of your dilemmas.

Edited September 18, 2007 by Gerhardt

[lv@1stflite]

Alright, this is getting way out of hand. I think the problem here is that Cyrak posted a blog asking for advice/donations on financing her flight training. While I commend your effort and composure, you've essentially come to a group of people and said

 

"I want to do what you do, but I don't want to have to do what you did to get there"

 

These people have made serious sacrifices of time, energy, money, blood, sweat, and tears to pursue a passion for flying helis. I have that passion too, but I had to wait until I was 40 to get started because it just wasn't practical to do it sooner.

 

Whether you are asking for advice or donations is irrelevant, you ARE asking for short-cuts. There aren't any. Either you are willing to make the investment of time and money for the love of flying or you're not.

 

I think you'll find that if you set a goal of becoming a pilot, work towards that goal and achieve it, you will have a lot more respect for your yourself and your peers as well as earning it from them. Asking others to make the financial investment for you might seem like the easy way, but you will lose respect for it.

 

You might have done better to quietly post your blog and not invite the pilots here to get involved. Personally, I would never ask for short-cuts because I value the pride of earning it. I would wager most of the pilots here would have a similar opinion.

 

Just my humble outlook........

[Mymm]

I just heard today on a raido station here in Salt Lake that there is a program where all repayments for the training are deferred until after training is complete....I don't think it was for "Upper Limit", I really wish I could recall.

 

Anyway I'll keep listening for it and hope to hear it again, you might be able to find some info with a google search, course it would probably require you moving to Utah, it's not that bad once you get past the mormons and I'm sure you could find vet work to keep things going.

 

If your that determined, a move shouldn't daunt you, maybe the program is applicable in your area, who knows.

Edited September 19, 2007 by Mymm

[RotorWeed]

Alright, this is getting way out of hand. I think the problem here is that Cyrak posted a blog asking for advice/donations on financing her flight training. While I commend your effort and composure, you've essentially come to a group of people and said

 

"I want to do what you do, but I don't want to have to do what you did to get there"

 

These people have made serious sacrifices of time, energy, money, blood, sweat, and tears to pursue a passion for flying helis. I have that passion too, but I had to wait until I was 40 to get started because it just wasn't practical to do it sooner.

 

Whether you are asking for advice or donations is irrelevant, you ARE asking for short-cuts. There aren't any. Either you are willing to make the investment of time and money for the love of flying or you're not.

 

I think you'll find that if you set a goal of becoming a pilot, work towards that goal and achieve it, you will have a lot more respect for your yourself and your peers as well as earning it from them. Asking others to make the financial investment for you might seem like the easy way, but you will lose respect for it.

 

You might have done better to quietly post your blog and not invite the pilots here to get involved. Personally, I would never ask for short-cuts because I value the pride of earning it. I would wager most of the pilots here would have a similar opinion.

 

Just my humble outlook........

 

Well said Sir! There is no path of least resistance to flight training. If this were easy everyone would be a pilot!

 

We have all made these sacrifices to become pilots, which you seem unwilling to do by reading your website.

 

To address your statements Cyrak.

 

1 When we say “worked our way through flight school” that means we SAVED the money up for each rating we were working on at the time (at least that’s what I did). Save up 12k and get your PPL-H. While you’re working on obtaining that first rating you can save up for the IFR and commercial. Yes this is going to probably take longer to do it this way, and you may have to make sacrifices like getting a part time job. You may even have to work over time where an employer pays time and a half, is that so bad?

If you work an extra job and save $700 a month for 18 months, do the math.

 

2 I’m not sure flying fixed wing is the way to go if you want to be a professional helicopter pilot. However lots of us are dual rated, like Mike Murphy said it is really no big deal. My humble opinion is that it is worth it to be dual rated, that fixed wing rating comes in handy.

 

 

Instead of firing back at us about what you aren’t willing to do to become a pilot, tell us what you are willing to do. Maybe someone here can come up with an idea for you that you are willing to try.

 

RW

[rookie chopper]

I have been reading everyones reply. Interesting read! I am new in training and have to save money to do it. I read you got a car loan to better your credit. Let me just say I have been driving a car I paid $500.00 dollars for. That way I can spend that $350.00 amonth car payment on flight lessons. I want my commercial lic. bad. So My wife and I talked about it and I am sacrificing in all areas just to get one flight a month right now. I work overtime when I can and save every penny I can. Plus be a Dad to three kids. After talking to other Helicopter pilots it is alot of sacrifice to get what you want. Just a couple of suggestions, pack you lunch for work, don't eat dinner out as much ever little bit helps. Trust me on this I cut back alot and within the next month I will be able to fly twice a month. I qualify for loans but I do not want to pay the high interest rates!

 

Just food for thought from a rookie.

 

 

 

 

Good luck!

 

Rookie

[joker]

a program where all repayments for the training are deferred until after training is complete

Isn't that what they call..er...what's the name?...uhm....'a loan' (in disguise)!?

 

I qualify for loans but I do not want to pay the high interest rates!

 

Well, that's OK as your interest rates have just been slashed. SELL GOLD!!! Get a loan!!!

 

Let me just say I have been driving a car I paid $500.00 dollars for. That way I can spend that $350.00 amonth car payment on flight lessons.

 

It's no wonder your country's loan and credit system is all askew! The system seems to require you to get into debt, to enjoy the privilage to get further into debt!(?) I will never understand how your credit ratings work. It just seems like voodoo to me. Maybe that is why sub-primes have caused such a stir round the world.

 

(Oops - another thread hijack). (BTW to any patriots, I am only kidding...not having a go at your country! - I'm only having a laugh..trying to quench the embers.)

 

No seriously, RookieChopper gives some good advice...just what this thread (and board) needs right now.

 

Joker

Edited September 19, 2007 by joker

[Vaqueroaero]

I don't have the time nor the inclination to read the whole thread, but here's my answer. Probably been told before.

 

When I learned to fly my instructor paid for his flight training without taking out a loan. He worked stocking shelves in supermarkets and it took him...........8 years to obtain his commercial certificate.

 

So if you truly don't want to give up, then don't. However, I personally think, setting up a website to get people to give donations so you can learn to fly is somewhat off the mark. It takes a lot of effort to get this, as anyone here who has done it will tell you.

 

As far as the credit system goes here, it is absolutley ridiculous. When I moved here and got married we tried to buy a house. Due to a weak dollar we had a very healthy 6 figure sum to put down as a deposit. I earn a good salary and carry no debt. The lenders were not interested in helping us out. My wife was not working, but they would give her the mortgage. Albeit an ARM, which we have just fixed for 30 years. I had great pleasure in explaining to the brokers why I had not one bit of interest in doing businness with them and that if my $200, 000 worth of businness wasn't good enough for them last year, because of my lack of credit, then it sure as heck wasn't good enough for them now.

Interesting the number of credit card applications I get sent each day, which get returned with an empty envelope. Just my way of sticking it to the man!

 

Fly on!

[Jeff]

It's no wonder your country's loan and credit system is all askew! The system seems to require you to get into debt, to enjoy the privilage to get further into debt!(?) I will never understand how your credit ratings work. It just seems like voodoo to me. Maybe that is why sub-primes have caused such a stir round the world.

 

Joker: If you come to the US and watch tv for a while you would see advertisements that there are finance companies out there that are on the side of the consumer. They are only looking out for us. After all, they are willing to give us the credit we "deserve". Obviously sarcasm on my part, but why pay for something when you can get a loan; and why pay off a loan when you can just get another loan?

 

 

I have to agree with lv@1stflite's post a little bit ago. If you're willing to do all the things that people are suggesting here, like get additional jobs or work overtime, then go do it. Willingness won't pay for flight lessons. I started off in airplanes. I was 17 and still in high school. I worked 20 hours a week as a busboy at minimum wage (which was $3.35/hr at the time), and used that money to buy gas, cigarettes and flying lessons. I flew anywhere from every two to six weeks. It took me 14 months to do it (even with my dad telling me I'll never be able to do it and that I'm wasting my money). I had 41.5 hours total time in my logbook when I took my PPL checkride. Now I'm working on my ATP-H, and I'm going to start working overtime to pay for it.

 

~Jeff

[LB11]

How much did you pay for that new car to build your credit?

 

 

How did you pay back your student loans? Or are you still paying them?

[Bayou06]

I'm curious. What has happened in your life to make you so bitter, jaded, and cynical? What is truly "really sad" is that unlike 90% of the pilots on this forum (and JH), who are helpful, supportive, and remember what it was like to want to be a pilot, but not know how to make it happen, your first response is to be as vicious and sarcastic as possible. Why is that? Does it make you feel better about yourself? Do you gain some kind of self-righteous satisfaction from insulting and belittling someone who was simply asking for advice? It's very easy from the end of the journey to look back on someone just starting out and judge their choices and mistakes. We all make our own way, and have our own reasons for the decisions we have made in our lives. I was not asking for an analysis of mine. If you don't approve, you are more than welcome to simply ignore this thread - no one is forcing you to read it. But if you choose to be involved, please keep your negativity to yourself. Thank you.

 

If you are wondering why you are getting a little rough treatment here, maybe I can shed some light. It's not because we are bitter, jaded or suffer some other tragic emotional condition. Most of us who have become helicopter pilots have made sacrifices. Either through the military with all dedication, duty, honor and sacrifices that it requires, or through the civilian route, with all the loans, 2nd & 3rd jobs, living on crappy CFI pay, time and money away from the family.

 

You on the other hand seem to find more ways to NOT do what it takes. You job sucks, your credit sucks, blah, blah, blah. You don't want to sacrifice financially and you don't want repay the Government who provides you freedom on a daily basis. I agree with the earlier poster. Sell you car, ride a bike or buy a clunker and but the difference in money toward your flying fund. Get a second job, work on the weekends do something else to make more money. Move into a cheaper place. Find the cheapest and relatively clean place to live and put the difference to the flying fund. Eat cheap. Give up the lattes and drink a regular cup of joe. Beat the bushes on loans. Spend more time on the Internet finding a student loan and not on myspace.com.

 

You want your dream but don't want to make the hard choices to make it happen. And as far as I'm concerned, I find it disgusting to pan handle on the internet. It's lazy and lame. Where is your self-respect? I just don't get you. Maybe it's just a Seattle/West Coast thing.

[Cyrak]

We have all made these sacrifices to become pilots, which you seem unwilling to do by reading your website.

 

Look - here's the deal. Quite frankly, I am utterly confused by the tenacity with which some of you are clinging to these ideas about me. Especially since I have no idea where you got them in the first place. I challenge you to find ANY statement I have made in my webpage or this thread that proves I am "unwilling" to work for this goal. If I remember correctly, I actually state several times that I WOULD be quite willing to work for it. I have NEVER responded to someone who made a suggestion by saying it was something I would not do, except my comment about the military, and even that I would do in a heartbeat if it were not for the reasons I mentioned, neither of which had anything to do with it being hard.

 

Out of a hundred different paths to this goal, many of which I named myself in my webpage, why is it that so many of you believe that having someone "give" me the money is the only one I will accept? Where have I ever said that? Mentioning it as a possibility, among many others, does not count. If I have expressed doubt in any of the other methods, it is only because someone I believed to have more experience than I do (such as those on this forum) gave me that impression. That does not for a second mean that I have dismissed them as "impossible" or "too much work"! If I am guilty of anything, it is ignorance and naivete, combined with being hopelessly confused by the conflicting information I have received. Keep in mind - you all have your own experience to fall back on. Imagine if you knew NOTHING about this field, except that you wanted to be a part of it - whose opinion would you trust? Especially if so much time and money were riding on it? One person says, "Start with fixed wing!" Another says, "It will only confuse you." One says, "Save the money." Another says, "It's a waste of time - you'll never save enough." One says, "Get a loan." Another says, "You don't want to be stuck with the debt." One says, "Pay as you go." Another says, "It's much more efficient to do it all at once." Do you understand?

 

I absolutely agree with you - I am aimless and indecisive. But it is not from fear of hard work. It is from "wasting" eight years on the wrong path, and hesitating to waste more on another. I am NOT looking for a handout. I am not looking for "shortcuts" per se. I am not looking for the "easy way". But if there is a more EFFICIENT way, can you fault me for seeking it? You say I "want to do what you do, but don't want to do what you did to get there." What is asking for advice, if not trying to learn from someone else's mistakes? If spending five or ten years working two jobs, and only flying once a month is the only way to do this, then so be it. That is what I will do. But what is wrong with wanting to be SURE that is the only way?

 

I DID NOT "set up a webpage to get people to give me donations"! It was only ONE of many things I mentioned on that webpage, and what I had actually suggested was simply the idea of a "fundraiser" involving people sending $1.00 each. I NEVER intended them to do it for nothing in return. I was asking for IDEAS, as in "what would you be willing to donate a dollar for?" A large part of it was inspired by the fact that several members of my family had offered to send me small amounts of money, and I simply wanted an account for them to send it to. The webpage was as much for them as for strangers. In fact, when I started this thread, the only thing I said was that I had started a webpage. I never presumed to expect anyone from this forum to contribute anything but suggestions. If I had any idea how ridiculous an issue this would become, I would never have posted here at all.

 

So unless someone can prove to me where I have said that I was truly unwilling to "make sacrifices" or "work hard" or "save the money", can we please get over it? I am desperately trying to steer this thread to more constructive subjects, but everyone seems determined to keep beating the same dead horse, so fine - I get it! It was a bad idea! But I have many others, so can we focus on them now?

 

To LB11:

It is a Mazda 3. The sticker said $16,000 or so. Which I'm sure you know means the loan had to be for about $19,000. No, I did not need that much car. I didn't even want a new car. I was ecstatic when I finally paid off the last one, and I was not in a hurry to be tied down to a car payment again. But everyone I knew advised me that it was a good move, that I needed a more reliable car, and that it was the best way to fix my credit. So I went shopping. After a lot of frustrating time spent with irritating salesmen, I realized another idiotic fact of our "ridiculous credit system" - those with poor credit (like me) are forbidden to finance an older, cheaper car, but they are highly encouraged to finance a brand new car. So that's what I did. I'm sure they are right, and that it will improve my credit, but either way, I'm stuck with it. I would never get close to the loan amount if I tried to sell it now.

 

And as for my student loans - yes, I am still paying on them.

[joker]

I think the whole problem is the mention of being opposed to military involvment in a forum and an industry with so many ex-military folk present.

 

They have been told that they are better people than the average civilian for so long, that they really believe it. Their heiraccal structure requires them to believe in an inequality amongst persons, whether contrived or not. E.g. A spritly young naval officer being saluted by an salty-old experienced sea-dog. I know who gets my respect.

 

When they come to the civilian world they find that actually they are no better than the civilians, that everyone is equal and everyone must do what they must do to get ahead. They don't like it nor understand it.

 

Example of my point - Quoting Bayou's last:

 

"Either through the military with all dedication, duty, honor and sacrifices that it requires, or through the civilian route, with all the loans, 2nd & 3rd jobs, living on crappy CFI pay, time and money away from the family. "

Do his words imply that civilian's don't have dedication, duty, honour and sacrifices? Yes! What is more, he probably didn't even think about that when he wrote it. There is the indoctrination at work.

 

So when they thought you would not go to military out of principal (yes, they chose not to read all your other reasons - medical) they immdiately made a judgment about you on that point alone. They closed their eyes to the rest of your message. They twisted your words and rather than addressing your queries, they took it upon themsleves to assume you were lazy and a non-patriot! I bet I could point out ex-military simply by the posts on this thread.

 

As I said, the military training can cloud can judgement. That's what military training is designed for.

 

Cyrak, this industry is full of pro-military types. Many are sensible and can see through the haze and realise the con's as well as the pro's of military and 'their' government.

 

Others however (must admit, moreso in the US ), are so blind to the world around them that they will argue 'till they are blue everything military. The need to justify their involvement, and they are given that justification from their leaders who need a certain line of thinking amongst the ranks. I feel sorry for them as their system has created that situation.

 

"repay the Government who provides you freedom on a daily basis"

 

The irony is that those that truely believe this are the ones most caught up in Uncle Sam's net. They are the ones with the least freedom. Very clever, really.

 

Of course, Uncle Sam's influence filters down the rivers and into the drinking water. So much so, that it is not just ex-military who are affected. In the US there are millions who still believe their country is the 'greatest', providing freedom to the rest of the world led by their own example of ultimate freedom, etc..etc...

 

OK, this post is going to cause a stink, you watch!...just a testament to what I am saying. Once again, I'm sorry to hijack, although, I figure that this thread probably needs a hijack now! I know that I will shock a few, maybe lose a few readers who hold some respect for me, on a subject which I can't hope to resolve, for I am up against the mighty Uncle Sam here.

 

However, I post with convication and in the hope that maybe some might take a step back, and look at exactly what they are saying sometimes or portraying.

 

Joker

Edited September 20, 2007 by joker