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It's probably akin bringing up Fords at a Chevy show, but I had an idea recently and would like to hear the thoughts of the helicopter pilot community. We all know that helicopters are far superior to jets in almost every conceivable way and that the best way to go is low and slow.

 

Being the helicopter pilot wannabe that I am, I'm constantly trying to think of creative and different ways to make my dreams a reality. I obviously want to fly helicopters for a living. Helicopter flight school, however, tends to be very expensive with little to no financial assistance available. On top of that, it seems that getting a job in the industry could then be very difficult to do.

 

I had to travel via commercial airline this week and it got me thinking. I did some looking as well and my initial findings indicate it may be less expensive to obtain the ratings to be a commercial airline pilot. It also may be somewhat easier to obtain a job in that industry. In addition, financial assistance seems much more obtainable.

 

Now I haven't done a whole lot of digging yet, but the gears are turning. I'm wondering if it may be more plausible to first become a commercial airline pilot, which I understand pays very well, then use those new found riches and connections to afford the schooling and flight time required to get a job as a helicopter pilot. Granted, it may take just as long or longer to get into the industry that way, but the idea is that I would at least get to fly in the mean time and that job may pay enough that even if I couldn't make the transition somehow, I wouldn't have spent every dime to my name and more to try.

 

I've obviously got a lot of research to do, but I'd love to read your thoughts on the idea. Thanks!

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If you think that commercial airline pilots make comparatively more money your research is in error. Your understanding that the commercial airlines pay very well is true, once at the top, but that is also true of helicopters. Entry level jet careers (akin to those thousand hour helicopter jobs) is in the mid to low 20s. Even the big airlines (United, American, etc.) don't pay their first officers a whole lot. By the time you make it to be a Dreamliner Captain, the whole fixed wing/rotary wing dilemma is a wash.

 

You may have been right about the pilot pay of the 80s in that they were living large, now they are just middle class like pretty much everyone else.

 

 

You may be right in that initial flight training costs are less, but that is about it. All pilots, unless you go the military route, are eating ramen noodles for the first several years.

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Here's my 2 cents: here's an excerpt from airliners.net forum: "1500 hours total fixed-wing time as pilot-in command (PIC) or first officer (SIC) including a minimum 1000 hours PIC in fixed-wing jet, fixed wing multi-engine turbo-prop, or multi-engine recip over 20,000 LBGW or combination thereof.

Note: PIC for this purpose is defined as Captain/Aircraft Commander of record, not simply the sole manipulator of the controls.
Note: FedEx considers only pilot time in fixed wing aircraft toward minimum qualifications. This does not include simulator, helicopter, flight engineer, bombardier, navigator, RIO, EWO, WSO, NFO, or Special Crew. "

So, flight time is a bit longer for hiring minimums in fixed wing world (heli is 1000-1500 depending on what company so I've heard). Secondly, it all depends what you want to do. The normal track for helicopter: get your schooling, get your flight hours through instruction, maybe a couple turbine hours, sleep outside the hiring manager's front door until he finally gives you an interview at an offshore company, then fly offshore for a couple years till your hours of PIC time are enough to work somewhere else (or just stay offshore).

The normal track for a fixed wing (fixed? like, neutered? :D) is the same. Except you sleep outside the UPS corporate office. Then you move into transporting people with the regionals, then when you have arthritis, you try to get a job with a major and hope you can keep passing the flight physical. The point is, time is your enemy. Get going! Just pick something. You will get hired eventually if you have enough of the right hours. If you don't care about fixed vs rotor wing, just pick one (whatever school fits your budget or time or commute restrictions). I wouldn't worry too much about financial assistance. You only really get it these days through sallie mae and it must be attached to a university to qualify (even then I'm not sure if the flight hours qualifies for govt money). There's no big winner either side. You can't save much either way. You WILL be poor, you WILL be wondering what the hell you were thinking, you WILL fail or make it if you can hold on long enough. Just GET GOING! Heli or fixed wing. Just get out there and do it. There's no shortcuts. sign away any life savings, get a job that pays the bills and the hours, and live like a college student for the next 6 years. If you are married, this can help you or kill you (do NOT expect to support ANYONE during your training time building years! If she/he is gainfully employed, it may work out). Seriously, you can't shortcut anything by going fixed wing. That's just reality. It SUCKS unless you want it bad enough. If you do want it, its the best time and money you every spent. Just get started NOW.

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I haven't really had time to sit and research the idea at all. I literally thought about it, had about 20 mins to spare or so to do a quick Google search, then posed the question on here for initial thoughts and insight until I get time to sit and do some real research.

 

I've been slammed busy with moving and business between Montgomery, Birmingham, Muscle Shoals, Chicago, Lansing, and Atlanta the past few weeks. I can't afford either option just yet so for now I'm saving up as much as possible while I plan my angle of attack.

 

I've almost got enough for a private license now, but It's gonna take a few more years at least before I'll have enough for a commercial license if financial assistance isn't an option. I'll probably have to leave what is quickly becoming a relatively successful career once I make the change, so any money I'm gonna need I would be wise to make and set aside before I do it.

 

I'm not against the idea, but unfortunately the military route isn't an option for me. I've gotta do it civie side. I've been working towards it for about 9 years now so I'm not really looking for a shortcut, just trying to make it happen. Thank you guys for your insight, I really appreciate it! I definitely don't want to get stuck driving a sky bus. I'll keep researching and exploring different ideas as they come to mind, but I won't get my hopes up too high about this one.

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I did some looking as well and my initial findings indicate it may be less expensive to obtain the ratings to be a commercial airline pilot. It also may be somewhat easier to obtain a job in that industry. In addition, financial assistance seems much more obtainable.

 

 

When you say "the ratings to be a commercial airline pilot," bear in mind that you'll need all the same pilot certification that's needed to get into helicopters (commercial, instrument, and in this case, multi-engine airplane rating, as well as instrument instructor and multi engine instructor), but you'll also need an Airline Transport Pilot certificate. There are a lot more fixed wing pilots than rotor pilots, and the competition for airline jobs is considerable. In some cases, 6,000 applications or more for each opening. A four year college degree is required in some cases, and preferred in most cases.

 

I'm wondering if it may be more plausible to first become a commercial airline pilot, which I understand pays very well, then use those new found riches and connections to afford the schooling and flight time required to get a job as a helicopter pilot. Granted, it may take just as long or longer to get into the industry that way, but the idea is that I would at least get to fly in the mean time and that job may pay enough that even if I couldn't make the transition somehow, I wouldn't have spent every dime to my name and more to try.

 

 

I'm not sure what you consider "very well," but entry level wages in airlines are not high. You would have no option of seeking employment with a national or major/legacy airline, so would need to seek employment at the regional level. Samples of entry level wages at some of the regionals:

 

Horzon: $30.00/Hr. (70 hr. guarantee) $2100/mo, $25,200/yr (9 year upgrade)

Mesa: $22.00/Hr. (76 hr. guarantee) $1672/mo, $20,064/yr (1-7 year upgrade)

TransStates:$25.00/Hr. (75 hr. guarantee) $1875/mo, $22,500/yr (1 year upgrade)

Skywest: $24.00/Hr. (75 hr. guarantee) $1800/mo, $21,600/yr (4 year upgrade)

 

Upon upgrading at each of the above carriers, based on current upgrade times to captain:

Horizon: $86.00/Hr. (70 hr. guarantee) $6,020/mo, $72,240/yr (based on 9 years to upgrade)

Mesa: $57.00-$68.00 $51,984-$62,016/yr (based on 1-7 year upgrade)

TransStates:$62.00/Hr. (75 hr. guarantee) $4,650/mo, 55,800/yr (based on 1 yr. upgrade)

Skywest: $72.00 Hr. (75 hr. guarantee) $5,400/mo, $64,800/yr (based on 4 year upgrade)

 

Starting wages at major airlines are not particularly high, either, but plan on 15 years or more before you'll be qualified to apply to a major airline. Your time off during those periods is typically one to three days at a time, every few days, but two of those three days are spent commuting to and from work, leaving you an occasional one day off; the rest of the time is spent on the road, making flight training in the helicopter nearly impossible. Wages as a First Officer (copilot) at the regional level are very low. Consider 20,000 a year before tax, resulting in approximately 16,000 a year after tax as your take home pay. That works out to be about 1,300 a month. By the time you cover a place to live and food (eating out is frequent, given that you're seldom home), there's little else left on which to live, let alone undertake flight training.

 

Getting into the regional, once you meet the minimum qualifications, isn't particularly difficult right now; the number of applicants for each regional job is considerably lower than for national or major airlines, and some of the regionals are having difficulty filling their seats due to the low wages. The life of a regional pilot isn't particularly enviable. Many who enter the regionals find themselves having difficulty going anywhere else; not hard to get in, but tough to get out. The upper limit for regional wages aren't very good, either.

 

Helicopter pay goes higher much more quickly than for fixed wing contemporaries, and as a helicopter pilot, you'll wind up in turbine equipment more quickly. The wage scale flattens considerably for helicopter operations, whereas over time the opportunities in fixed wing are generally considerably higher and the field much more diverse.

 

A problem in either case, regardless of whether you elect to pursue helicopters or fixed wing, is taking the time to make the transition. If you elect to pursue fixed wing and become an airline pilot, you might be able to work on your helicopter ratings over an extended period of time. At some point you'll need to quit flying fixed wing to fly rotor full time, most likely instructing, and you'll take a wage hit to make the change. This will be ten years or so into your fixed wing career. There's no other way you'll get enough rotor experience to make yourself marketable. Conversely, if you pursue rotor and want to fly fixed wing, at some point you'll need to break off and start developing fixed wing experience. You'll be making a transition back to piston equipment, probably fixed wing instructing, and will go through series of low paying jobs as you work your way slowly up the fixed wing ranks. it's up to you; pick your poison.

 

Fixed wing: slow to start, low starting wages, high wages later in career.

Rotor wing: quicker to start, higher starting wages, faster transition to turbine equipment, flatter wage arc throughout career, and lower overall wages later in the career.

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Personally, I feel money isn't everything, especially if you hate your job.

 

Sure airline flying is flying, but is it really? Takeoffs and landings and the rest of the flight your FD coupled.

 

I think being an airline pilot would be a boring and repetitive job. So although we argue and make all these salary comparisons, at the end of the day you can't put a price on hapiness.

 

I'll never go to an airline because I enjoy helicopter flying way to much and I refuse to be a slave to the airline industry and the unions.

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I haven't really had time to sit and research the idea at all. I literally thought about it, had about 20 mins to spare or so to do a quick Google search, then posed the question on here for initial thoughts and insight until I get time to sit and do some real research.

 

I've been slammed busy with moving and business between Montgomery, Birmingham, Muscle Shoals, Chicago, Lansing, and Atlanta the past few weeks. I can't afford either option just yet so for now I'm saving up as much as possible while I plan my angle of attack.

 

I've almost got enough for a private license now, but It's gonna take a few more years at least before I'll have enough for a commercial license if financial assistance isn't an option. I'll probably have to leave what is quickly becoming a relatively successful career once I make the change, so any money I'm gonna need I would be wise to make and set aside before I do it.

 

I'm not against the idea, but unfortunately the military route isn't an option for me. I've gotta do it civie side. I've been working towards it for about 9 years now so I'm not really looking for a shortcut, just trying to make it happen. Thank you guys for your insight, I really appreciate it! I definitely don't want to get stuck driving a sky bus. I'll keep researching and exploring different ideas as they come to mind, but I won't get my hopes up too high about this one.

I think most people are in a similar situation. I'm trying for the military route (I have other reasons than just the flying as motivation for this but, flying rotorcraft is my life's dream regardless). My first instructor said that to fly, you either take out loans and then instruct, save up a big bank roll and just run through the training, or...win the lottery (or kill your beloved rich uncle (snark)).

 

Money and time are the big limiters. However, the way I see it, the difficulty to entry is a good thing since it keeps the industry from getting saturated. Only people willing to go through the painful endless process will be able to apply for a job (no letters from congressmen or powerful family members can get anyone a short cut).

 

Like yourself, I'm still in the wannabe stage. From everything I've read, the most important factor to determine where you ultimately end up is what class or category your hours are (however, I'd guess total time (TT) is also a very important factor).

 

It is cheaper to get fixed wing time so, one (very) slightly cost saver is to get a fixed wing PPL first, then add on helicopter rating second. You learn all the basics, how to navigate airspaces, use the radio etc without wasting expensive helicopter time while learning the basics.

 

Some guys would say don't waste your time with two learning curves or that learning fixed wing first gives you bad habits that can theoretically make helicopter flying more dangerous but, I don't see this being the case for everyone. If you already have everything else (radios etc), you will have more concentration to learn the helicopter controls and your learning time will be more productive IMHO. I have 11 hrs TT and all helicopter and, I kind of wish I'd have gone this route. If military route doesn't work out, that's what I'll be doing. I guess that makes my 4 cents. LOL

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I'm a CFI in both FW and RW and fly both regularly. It doesn't make either more dangerous.

One of my instructors, and several people I've talked to, think that switching from yoke to collective will tend to make a FW pilot want to do abrupt pushovers when trying to descend, exclusively using the pedals for turns, or other muscle memory cross translations. They say "if you want to fly helicopters, stick with helicopters." I get the feeling there's a little bias with those guys. While I'm no CFI (maybe one day....sigh), I get the feeling you are completely correct. Flying helicopters is so completely different I find it hard to believe one would confuse the two...

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I think I would be one that wouldn't be negatively affected by learning both. I'd like to learn both eventually, but I get the impression learning fixed wing will be cake walk. The radios and charts I imagine will be the hardest part of either for me.

 

I think being an airline pilot the rest of my life would only be slightly better than what I do now, which I do enjoy, but isn't even close to as awesome as flying helos. You guys are extraordinarily helpful with your insight and knowledge and I appreciate the conversation greatly. It sounds like the convoluted route through the airline industry wouldn't be worth it. Joe, I agree money isn't everything. Happiness is much more important. I have no doubts that my end goal would be helicopters.

 

I had read on a website one, it was trying to sell a book, something similar to what you mentioned, won2be. Getting fixed wing ppl and heli add-on may be a slight cost savings. What are your guys' thoughts on going that route, then after obtaining a commercial rating, doing the time building with the fellow inspecting pipelines up and down the Appalachians?

 

I would think the cost of that route may be slightly less, the experience slightly better, but the difficulty of getting an instructor job slightly higher since the school doesn't know you. Or would attending a school exclusively for the first 300 hours be better due to more time practicing various scenarios since there is still a job to do in the pipeline.

 

Also, I do plan to obtain an FAA book so I can study up on requirements and whatnot once my life settles a bit, but I'm currently in the middle of moving across the state.

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One of my instructors, and several people I've talked to, think that switching from yoke to collective will tend to make a FW pilot want to do abrupt pushovers when trying to descend, exclusively using the pedals for turns, or other muscle memory cross translations. They say "if you want to fly helicopters, stick with helicopters." I get the feeling there's a little bias with those guys. While I'm no CFI (maybe one day....sigh), I get the feeling you are completely correct. Flying helicopters is so completely different I find it hard to believe one would confuse the two...

 

Ah...people with no experience in what they're talking about (as in, being both rotary and fixed wing pilots). Great!

 

I can't say that while enroute, I've EVER used "exclusively pedals" to make a turn. Only while hovering. Honestly, I'm fairly confident that I use much MORE pedal in turns, now that I'm in a plane. But so far, it's just a 182.

 

I think they're different enough that it's almost like saying driving a car gives you bad habit transfer to flying a helicopter/plane. The hardest part for me has been landings, and not because I try to land at 0 airspeed. I just can't seem to consistently get the roundout correct.

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If a person is going for a career in helicopter flying, I don't think that getting fixed wing first will save any money at all, it will actually end up costing more money. The reason being is that entry level jobs (in lunch ding CFI) don't really care top much about total time, they care about rotorcraft time. So any time you cut out at the beginning, you will have to add onto the end... and pay for it.

 

If you wanted to get both anyways, or you just want them for personal flying, then it's a different story. You would probably save money getting fixed wing first.

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My $0.02 worth.

 

As has been mentioned, if you start out from zero and go thru both programs you will have about the same amount of money invested to become employable in either. Around $50 to 60,000.00. That now gives you the required "certificates and ratings."

 

Now you will need "experience" in each, basically the same. Probably teach, aerial surveillance type, charter/135 or the like.

 

Like mentioned above, most will NOT care about the "time" in the other category of aircraft.

 

So now let us look at the job availablility or the sheer numbers of positions you will be competing for. Positions in airplanes far, far, far out number those in helicopters. Did I mention the there are many more in airplanes…. :-)

 

In mid-1973, I was exactly where you were now. I only wanted to fly helicopters, period. I went to a place in PA, then called AgRotors, the only helicopter school in the mid-atlantic at the time. The old gentleman that owned the school said this.

 

"Son timing is not on your side right now and here is why." "The war (Vietnam) is ending and the Army is set to dump thousands of helicopter pilot into the market, this year." "I can teach you but,,,, you will NOT be able to compete for any position because those pilots will be here taking all of the jobs before I can train you to be competitive." "I will take your money but not without you knowing the truth about your opportunities once you are finished." "If you want to fly, then go airplanes and then transition in less than 10 years to helicopters, no longer than 10."

 

I thought and talked to a lot of people,, and then that is exactly what I did. Finished all of my fixed rating in fall of 1975 and started teaching/charter/mail/corporate. In 1983 transitioned to rotorcraft and started at the bottom in helicopters teaching/pipeline/LE.

 

I say all of this to let you know that yes, you can do it. Having said this, the times and conditions are different, very different now.

 

In today's time and setting, you have to decide if you want to "fly" or if you "have to fly helicopters?" When you answer that question, then I can tell you the best way to proceed.

 

Because if you say, I am ok with "flying anything," then I say, fly airplanes and "play for fun in helicopters."

 

But, if you say, I have to fly helicopters" then I say, go for helicopters and devote your time, money and life to helicopters.

 

It is as simple and as complex as that. This advice to you is from 40+ years of being in this industry and seeing myself and others make some good and bad choices throughout.

 

Currently, I fly as a Co-Captain on a 2004 Citation Bravo. Why airplanes now, you may ask,,,,, because:

 

more opportunities, more money & less stress.

 

I wish you the very best!

 

Fly safe,

 

edspilot

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I may regret bringing this into the conversation but the VA pulling funding could be a factor for a few years in the CFI world. There are plenty of low time CFI pilots right now but not many students. Many flight schools are hurting for money. This may always be the case but I think this factor is stronger right now and will be until things stabilize in a few years. This is just speculation but I would say this is a great time to be a student and bad time to be a CFI. By time you are done with being a student this might not even matter.

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One person mentioned how you would have to get the helicopter time at the END of training anyways. He's not wrong. For a couple reasons, but one that is regulatory. SFAR 73 requires anyone who wants to instruct in an R22 or R44 to have 200 hours in helicopters (and then other requirements in each model).

 

There aren't many schools out there that don't train exclusively in one of those two helicopters. The average person takes about that many hours to get from private to CFI-I as it is. Maybe less, maybe more, depending on that individual. Either way, the requirement still stands.

 

So you might save a bit of money by getting your airplane rating first, but you'll still need the time when you get out on the other side. So really... you could potentially end up paying more.

 

Just throwing that one out there.

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One of my instructors, and several people I've talked to, think that switching from yoke to collective will tend to make a FW pilot want to do abrupt pushovers when trying to descend, exclusively using the pedals for turns, or other muscle memory cross translations.

 

I fly both helicopters and fixed-wing routinely. That is the dumbest piece of crap advice I have ever heard. When I get in a helicopter- I think helicopter. When I get in an airplane- I think airplane.

 

The hardest part for me has been landings, and not because I try to land at 0 airspeed. I just can't seem to consistently get the roundout correct.

 

Make sure you look down the runway when landing. If you pull your eyes down where you would on a helicopter approach, you will bounce it every time.

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This is great information and very informative! My stuff was delivered to my new place today, so I should be back up and running on my computer by the end of the week. I definitely definitely would way much prefer helicopters. I might be ok with flying anything that'll get me in the air though. I'd have to think about it cause I really do like my job now.

 

Sounds like one or the other for at least a decade is the way to go. That VA funding deal could be a problem. I've also read speculation about hoards of retiring baby boomers from Vietnam causing a void in the market over the next 5 or 10 years. I also read someone somewhere else didn't think it was likely due to all the middle east conflict pilots. I'm thinking Vietnam had a lot more troops and a lot more pilots though so I'm optimistic that there is some legitimacy to it.

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This is great information and very informative! My stuff was delivered to my new place today, so I should be back up and running on my computer by the end of the week. I definitely definitely would way much prefer helicopters. I might be ok with flying anything that'll get me in the air though. I'd have to think about it cause I really do like my job now.

 

Sounds like one or the other for at least a decade is the way to go. That VA funding deal could be a problem. I've also read speculation about hoards of retiring baby boomers from Vietnam causing a void in the market over the next 5 or 10 years. I also read someone somewhere else didn't think it was likely due to all the middle east conflict pilots. I'm thinking Vietnam had a lot more troops and a lot more pilots though so I'm optimistic that there is some legitimacy to it.

I really hope you break into the industry. Every job has a myriad of factors affecting its particular market. But from my experience, he who keeps walking eventually gets to his destination. Your flight hours never expire so no flight hour is wasted. if you are willing to go through the long slog, you will succeed.

 

Another factor is the UAV market. With regulations coming soon, I predict a large drop in helicopter demand. I think total pilot supply is coming down, the low hour CFI supply is going up, gas prices are coming down (making helicopter ops cheaper, possibly making pilot job supply higher), UAVs are going to make the demand for services go down while most of the glut of ex military pilots is accounted for (and will eventually go away as those guys retire). Then of course there's always the possibility of new regulations (due to constant safety concerns from the public) making pilot jobs more plentiful but also much harder to obtain and retain....and on and on and on. Ever try playing the stock market? that just as reliable as finding the sweet spot in the job market. Ignore any doubts, get qualified, and go fly.

 

There's only a couple ways to be a pilot and none of them are easy, quick, or cheap. There will always be some demand somewhere for pilots so, just complete your training knowing that EVENTUALLY, you will be employed somewhere for a modest but adequate income. Kick your doubts in the teeth. It takes as long to be fixed wing as it does to be helo. Do you like helicopters or airplanes better? pick one and just do it. Neither path will fundamentally be superior enough to justify taking the less desirable path. Do the path you are passionate about. Both paths are equally expensive and long.

 

That's my 2 cents....lets see, that's like...8 cents now. Gee willikers this forum is getting expensive. :)

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Well I fly both, started in airplanes in 1975 and made the transition to helicopters in 1983, I would have been better off If I just bought Stock in Microsoft and Apple with the money I spent! Water under the bridge, 40 years later, I was offered and Airline Job with a Regional Carrier, Lots of flight time in Fixed wing ATP several thousands of hours multiengine time, they offered me $ 19 a flight hour with a 60 hour a month guarantee and I would based in Chicago, at the time I was 58 years old, I would have not gotten my IOE out of the way before I hit 59 and since you can't fly under 121 rules after age 63, it would have been nothing more that yea I flown a regional jet! I told them no, because I am to old to live in a frat house crash pad, and flying for any bottom feeding helicopter company down in the Gulf would pay a hell of a lot more money, and current rotor time would still be much more valuable to me at age 63 than being 63 with a some jet time! I never had a problem with flying either or either! And for those that say money is not important, you will think differently when you start hitting your mid to late 50's- flying is a business and its a job you do a job or start a business for one purpose only, to make either a good living as an employee or a decent profit and return on investment for the business owner, I been both, its a tough nut no matter which way to go. Right now I fly for an private individual on a Call when needed- its not much, but its 100% better than nothing, I might fly 65 hours this year, But I am not holding my breath, the airplane is up for sale! This would be the fourth aircraft that was sold out from under me, at least I know about it this time! The actual flight times that will get you looked at are a lot different that what the stated minimums are- do it only if you are going to go for the long haul, and its a hard long bumpy road!

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...I would have not gotten my IOE out of the way before I hit 59 and since you can't fly under 121 rules after age 63, ...

 

Age 65 for airline operations under 14 CFR 121.

 

It used to be age 60. We had captains that moved to the FE seat on turning 60, and when the age was bumped back to 65, they re-bid the left seat and moved back to captain until 65.

 

Some ICAO member nations are looking or moving to 67, which is most likely what will happen in the US in the not too distant future.

 

Never the less you're right on the income and the efficacy of joining a regional at that age. It's pointless, regardless of the regional, unless you're already holding down a retirement and can afford to go play.

 

Regionals are a kid's game, and the reason they're having a hard time getting pilots presently is their poor schedule and pay. Those who have the experience and capability of working anywhere else, generally do (except in times of economic downturn, in which case the furloughed will take what they can get).

 

Moving to a regional as an adult is like going back to kindergarten, surrounded by snot-nosed kids who still don't know how to open the door.

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