Airplane Add-on

[IFLY]

Bossman is right, 19 hours minimum.

 

Jerry

[R22139RJ]

Take my word for it, it is 20 hours for either add-on.

I tend to avoid, the whole take my word for it path. I don't trust my students with my life. This is why I look at the helicopters after a student has preflighted, check the weather that my students got and make sure everything is done by the book. Taking your word and not being able to back up the information myself seems complacent, and has no room in aviation. I was taught as a CFI that if you say something, where can you find it to back it up.

 

Do people that think you don't need 30 hours just not read or don't understand what the regs say? I think there has been an adequate effort in this thread to prove why its 30 hours.

 

Can anyone explain why its 19 hours and could you reference the regulations? I'm curious where helicopter areas of operations count for airplane areas of operations?

[delorean]

§ 61.109 Aeronautical experience.

(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (k) of this section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor ----> and (1) of this part,

 

This is the key word. Note how the sentence is broken down below. Does it mean that you need:

 

[...at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor]

AND

10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in §61.107((1) of this part. (applies just to the solo part)

 

Or does it mean:

 

[...at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor AND 10 hours of solo flight training...]

...in the areas of operation listed in §61.107((1) of this part. (applies to both parts)

 

Because if it's the second, then I would say you needed 20 hrs dual in an airplane since §61.107((1) references the flight instruction for a SINGLE ENGINE AIRPLANE, not a helicopter. Even though it covers almost the exact same things as a helicopter, it's under the Airplane SEL heading, not Rotorcraft Helicopter. As a private-roto/heli pilot, you went the training under ((4), not ((1).

 

( Areas of operation.

(1) For an airplane category rating with a single-engine class rating:

(i) Preflight preparation;

(ii) Preflight procedures;

(iii) Airport and seaplane base operations;

(iv) Takeoffs, landings, and go-arounds;

(v) Performance maneuvers;

(vi) Ground reference maneuvers;

(vii) Navigation;

(viii) Slow flight and stalls;

(ix) Basic instrument maneuvers;

(x) Emergency operations;

(xi) Night operations, except as provided in Sec. 61.110 of this part; and

(xii) Postflight procedures.

 

Not sure what the answer is, I've seen it go both ways. Depends on the FSDO and depends on who processes the paperwork in OKC that day when your 8710 comes across the table. Talk to YOUR local FSDO and see what they want for starters.

[nikon858]

Bossman is right, 19 hours minimum.

 

Jerry

 

Yup, just counted it up myself.....the whole 20dual that everyone keeps going back to doesn't say it has to be in a single engine airplane.

 

If it doesn't say it has to be done in a single engine airplane your heli time counts.

 

10 Solo - 5 must be x country

3 x country training - 3 night training (can be done together)

3 under the hood <---maybe even include this in the 3 x country and 3 night

3 for test prep

 

so 19 or 16 if you do the hood training at night with your x-country...pretty simple when you read it, again if it doesn't say single engine airplane your heli time counts.

[delorean]

From John Lynch's (the man that wrote the FARs) Pt.61 FAQs...........

 

I couldn't find anything in the Private section, but there was tons on similar situations in the Commercial section. All throughout this 500 page FAQs he enforces that you cannot "double credit" hours between certificates and ratings. You can only "kill two birds with one stone" inside of a rating's flight experience (e.g. do your instrument training at night since it will go towards both requirements.)

 

The FAA yanked this off their website about 5 yrs ago, so many of the hour requirements have changed with the new pt. 61. Posted as fuel for the fire only.......

 

 

 

QUESTION: A Commercial Pilot with Helicopter/Instrument Ratings only, wants to add Airplane-Multiengine to his Commercial certificate. Does the applicant need to meet all the requirements of §61.129( or just the “training” areas of operation listed in § 61.127( (2)?

 

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.63((1), To address your example, you have an applicant who holds a Commercial Pilot Certificate with a helicopter rating. The applicant now wants to add an AMEL rating at the commercial pilot level. So, in accordance with § 61.63((1) [i.e., “. . . required training and possess the aeronautical experience prescribed . . .”], you'd go to § 61.129( and accomplish “. . . the aeronautical experience and training. . .” that apply to the airplane multiengine rating. In summary, the requirements are, and this is how you read § 61.63((1):

 

• 250 hours of flight time as a pilot with 50 hours in airplanes

 

• 100 hours of PIC flight time that includes 50 hours in airplanes & 50 hours in cross-country of which at least 10 hours must be in airplanes

 

• 20 hours of dual training on § 61.127((2) that includes: 5 hours instrument training in a multiengine airplane; 10 hours in a complex multiengine airplane; One 2-hour day VFR x-c in a multiengine airplane; One 2-hour night VFR x-c in a multiengine airplane; and 3 hours in a multiengine in prep for the practical test.

 

• 10 hours of flight time in a multiengine airplane performing PIC duties that includes: One (at least) 300 NM cross country flight in a multiengine airplane to a point more than 250 NM from original departure and three landings; and 5 hours in a multiengine airplane under night VFR with 10 takeoffs and landings at a towered airport.

{Q&A-83}

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------

 

QUESTION: Does the aeronautical experience requirement for “. . . 10 hours of solo flight in a helicopter on the areas of operation listed in § 61.127((3) of this part . . .” have to be accomplished after the applicant first holds a private pilot certificate? Or can the aeronautical experience earned as a student pilot be credited for meeting this requirement?

 

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.129©(4); That aeronautical experience [i.e., “. . . 10 hours of solo flight in a helicopter on the areas of operation listed in § 61.127((3) of this part . . .” ] has to be earned while the applicant is seeking commercial pilot certification and the applicant must first hold at least a Private Pilot Certificate. As the rule [i.e., § 61.129©(4)] states, it has to be “. . . on the areas of operation listed in § 61.127((3) of this

part . . .” Otherwise, at the commercial pilot level.

 

The answer is no, this aeronautical experience cannot be earned during the student pilot level.

 

-----------------------------------------------------

 

QUESTION: There seems to be some questions and varying interpretations among examiners, inspectors, and authorized instructors regarding aeronautical experience requirements for a commercial LTA-balloon certificate.

 

§ 61.129(h) states an applicant must have 35 hours of flight time as a pilot which includes at least:

1. 20 hours in balloons;

2. 10 flights in balloons;

3. Two flights in balloons as PIC;

4. 10 hours of flight training that includes at least 10 flights in balloons on the areas of operation listed in §61.127((8)

 

The confusion appears to be on item #4. Some are interpreting this to mean that if a maneuver is the same at both private and commercial levels (e.g. Inflation) and signed off at the private level, then it doesn't have to be signed off again at the commercial level. Others say that these 10 flights are training flights on commercial maneuvers and that similar training at the private level doesn't count towards these 10 flights.

 

Exactly what is paragraph 4 requiring?

 

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.129(h)(4); It means “10 hours of flight training that includes at least 10 training flights. . . on the areas of operation listed in § 61.127((8) of this part -” It doesn't mean they can add their time forward from the private pilot certification level. All of it has to be “. . . on the areas of operation listed in § 61.127((8) of this part . . . .”{Q&A-158}

 

 

The way I read it, if you compare these situations, you need 30 hrs. For those that did it in less, good job, you beat the system!

[Pohi]

Exactly Delorean.

 

If you ask around enough, I am sure you will find an FAA inspector or DPE that will give a person a certificate with only 5 hours in an airplane. Who cares what the regs say, all that matters is that piece of plastic is in a person's pocket that says they are a pilot.

Edited December 24, 2009 by Pohi

[bossman]

It is 19 hours. You guys can read the FAR's all day and keep getting different answers. Bottom line is, if you want an add-on private rating, come to West Virginia and get it in 20 hours. Or if you want to pay the cost and expenses for the fight, we'll come to your FSDO and take it to DC and bring them into the light.

[R22139RJ]

It is 19 hours. You guys can read the FAR's all day and keep getting different answers.

 

Actually, if you read the FARs, its 30, there is no other answer than that. To hell with the Regs though, lets do it in 20 because a FSDO lets people get away with it. All I want is a piece of plastic anyway.

[palmfish]

Actually, if you read the FARs, its 30, there is no other answer than that.

 

So, using this same logic, you must also believe a pilot holding a Private Airplane SEL rating would have to train for 30 hours in a multi-engine airplane to get a multi-engine rating?

 

This would put American Flyers and ATP out of business...

[bossman]

Actually, if you read the FARs, its 30, there is no other answer than that. To hell with the Regs though, lets do it in 20 because a FSDO lets people get away with it. All I want is a piece of plastic anyway.

Are you trying to say that you cannot obtain enough training in 20 hours to pass a private check ride. What about the fixed wing pilot with thousands of hours and knowledge under his or her belt? Do you actually think they need the additional cross country hours to be able to navigate? Do they need the additional pattern work? All the add-on student is required to do is learn to fly the machine and learn the basic aerodynamics. I've seen a lot of fixed wing guys hover in just a couple hours and others take 10 or 12. Not having to teach weather, navigation, rules, regulations, pilotage, etc. lets you concentrate on the flying. This is the advantage to doing the add-on. No matter how you cut it, it is still just 19 hours for the add-on private. By the way I've seen a lot of guys that still have paper and not plastic. The CRW FSDO lets nobody get away with anything, especially us. We have gone to battle with them on several issues. Some we lose and some we win. They always kick us to Region for an opinion and sometimes to DC. This one went to DC. 20 hours if you can fly.

[Pohi]

So, using this same logic, you must also believe a pilot holding a Private Airplane SEL rating would have to train for 30 hours in a multi-engine airplane to get a multi-engine rating?

 

This would put American Flyers and ATP out of business...

 

Read the regulations.

Everything is there, black and white.

There is a whole section, something along the lines of 61.65 Additional aircraft ratings (other than on an airline transport pilot certificate.

 

Then, with more reading, a person can find in additional category rating part ((1) says that there needs to be training, and in additional class rating (which is what you are referring to) part ©(4) clearly states that a person need not meet the specified training time requirements.

 

It's all there.

[Pohi]

Are you trying to say that you cannot obtain enough training in 20 hours to pass a private check ride. What about the fixed wing pilot with thousands of hours and knowledge under his or her belt? Do you actually think they need the additional cross country hours to be able to navigate? Do they need the additional pattern work? All the add-on student is required to do is learn to fly the machine and learn the basic aerodynamics....

 

I do believe there is something along the lines of an endorsement that an instructor needs to make that says that they have been found proficient in all of the areas of operation that are appropriate to the category and class before a checkride. I would not take a student's word that they are proficient, I would actually do the training that my endorsement says I did.

 

Either way. Everybody should just buy a ticket and do the training with you because your FSDO will allow checkrides at 19 hours. That will solve the whole issue, imo.

[apiaguy]

Hell yeah!!

If I didn't already have both ratings I'd be in WV!!

 

I always thought the schools never knew how to do add-on ratings.... one of the most confused subjects in the FAR's

 

 

SO can we please agree that you CAN do it in 20 hours!!!

[Pohi]

Hell yeah!!

If I didn't already have both ratings I'd be in WV!!

 

I always thought the schools never knew how to do add-on ratings.... one of the most confused subjects in the FAR's

 

 

SO can we please agree that you CAN do it in 20 hours!!!

 

It was never of an issue of it CAN be done in 20 hours. Go to WV. It can be done.

 

Of course, you CAN shoot somebody in the face for cutting in line at Taco Bell, but I doubt you are supposed to by the letter of the law.

[Pohi]

but, of course, that is for the lawyers and juries to interpret.

[R22139RJ]

Apparently a few of us should become lawyers because we understand what the regs say. I can make way more money getting my law degree and then come back to help people understand the FARs.

[bossman]

Apparently a few of us should become lawyers because we understand what the regs say. I can make way more money getting my law degree and then come back to help people understand the FARs.

I don't think that you will get a whole lot of business. You'll be one of those lawyers that want to drag out the case for more hours than necessary.

[R22139RJ]

And rake in the skrilla.

[bossman]

And rake in the skrilla.

No doubt. In a situation involving lawyers, they are the only ones that make any money. Maybe someday we'll get tort reform and stop a lot of the unnecessary lawsuits. Take care.

[ironranger]

No doubt. In a situation involving lawyers, they are the only ones that make any money. Maybe someday we'll get tort reform and stop a lot of the unnecessary lawsuits. Take care.

 

 

And then maybe the insurance premiums will be a little more realistist and affordable and operators will actually make money and hire pilots.

 

IR

[delorean]

So, using this same logic, you must also believe a pilot holding a Private Airplane SEL rating would have to train for 30 hours in a multi-engine airplane to get a multi-engine rating?

 

This would put American Flyers and ATP out of business...

 

Wrong.....

 

That's a CLASS rating add-on, not a CATEGORY.

 

That's like a Roto/Heli pilot adding-on a Roto/Gyro rating. Or a Airplane/SEL adding on a Airplane/SES rating.

 

When you add-on CLASS ratings ratings to a CATEGORY you already hold, all you need to do is show proficiency. Usually, that's about 5 hrs of training and a checkride.

[delorean]

Guys,

 

I think we've established that the FAA has two different ways of interpreting it's own rule on this. It's not the first time, or the first reg they done it on.

 

Several times throughout the Pt. 61 FAQs, John Lynch admits where they screwed up the wording, or by the time the lawyers got done with it, the reg isn't what they meant it to be. Advanced Ground Instructors is the perfect example......you were never suppose to be able to get that certificate & rating before you got your basic or instrument. But when it finally got signed off, the chapter had morphed in to something different than intended.

 

I've sat through two of John Lynch's courses at IA renewal seminars, and he admits how bad they screwed up Pt. 65, recreational pilot certification & privs, etc. You wouldn't believe the amount of work, logistics, studies, and more that go into changing ONE word in the FARs. He said it takes a week's worth of manhours to change or put a new question on a practical test.

 

Back to the 30 vs 19 hrs,

 

The inspectors at your local FSDO are the ones that look at your paperwork before it gets sent to OKC. When it hits OKC, who knows if the person processing knows what they're looking at, or if the computer is the one that kicks it back if the numbers are not right. And who knows who programmed the computer--and the way they read the reg.

 

In my FSDO, they want 30 hrs; in the WV they will take 19 hrs. Since they're the ones approving or enforcing it, just go with that.

 

I'm trying to get something unique approved by the ATF right now. I know some people that had it approved, some that didn't. Of the 20+ people my attorney & I spoke with at ATF headquarters, most played the "I don't know, not my department" game. We finally found one of the people who processes the forms and asked her. She said, "...if they're worded like this...I appove them; if they worded like this...I do not." So we worded it like exactly she told us, and sent them to her attention.

 

That's how to do it......If you want to your airplane category add-on in 19 hours, go to a FSDO that will accept it. If you don't care about the 11 extra hours, you can do it anywhere in the country. We can all have our opinions of what it was meant to say or be.

[The Guardian]

Why all the focus on only doing the minimum required.? I assume if you're getting your private fixed wing that you are going to actually fly fixed wing hours. Does an extra 5 hours of training really make a difference time or budget wise. Is it purely ego more than financial? I'm such a good pilot I got my rating in 5 hours! I fly Heli's so good I hovered right out my mothers womb! Without SAS I might add!

 

I understand personal economics and understand the desire to do things efficiently in both time and cost but shaving a few hours of training here and there seems like it's more likely to hurt you in the long run. Also combing flying night while under the hood, sure it's "legal" but is it smart? Flying under the hood is different than flying night VFR so why limit your training? I guess if you have 100's of night vfr heli hours it's one thing but were those hours at higher altitudes that you're more likely to experience in a fixed wing? Same but different?

 

It's never crowded along the extra mile,

 

Eric

[rotormandan]

It's never crowded along the extra mile.

 

 

I like that quote.

 

 

Question: Has anyone signed off the add-on rating using IACRA using the 19 hours. Does it accept it or kick it out? I'm sure it does to same thing no matter what part of the country one is in.

 

I was always on the 19 hour side. One needs 20 hours of dual(not specific in any category) AND 10 hours solo of 61.107((1) but I can see how both the dual and solo can be interpreted for 61.107((1).

 

In my experience it never mattered because I always taught in Robbies which needed 20 hours dual anyway per the SFAR so I never tried it out in IACRA. Any instructors in other ships care to answer?

[The Guardian]

I like that quote.

 

I've actually seen that used by different people over the years, so I'm not quite sure who to attribute it to.... but it's a fun quote to think about whenever I think about doing something as fast as possible..

 

Eric