lelebebbel Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 Just to prove a point. I guess everyone here will agree that the Bell 206 is one of the safest helicopters and even aircraft ever built. Now, try "Bell 206" accidents since 1967 in the NTSB database. About 7,300 of them were built, and 1,455 crashes have been recorded. That's 20% according to your method. Now what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beckwith Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 That is like a 18 year old person debating on which type of big wheel is better. The Superman or Batman big wheel, when that person has already advanced to a two wheel Huffy. Sorry Pohi I couldn't let this go. The Batman Big wheel is by far the superior machine and I'm insulted that you would compare it to the superman one even in this context! lol On an only slightly more serious note who cares what kind it is, it's a helicopter, go fly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mechanic Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 Advanced Helicopter Concepts video Autorotations in the R22 has Tim Tucker from RHC talking about crash stat's. Most of the accidents in the 22 are from practicing autorotations for an engine out condition, which has a very low chance of happening in a R22, from mechanical failure. So, you have low time pilots practicing Auto's in a quirky little ship, things happen. When you remove the practice auto's from the equation, the crash rate gets real low. Yes, I wish the rotor mass could be increased so rpm wasn't so sensitive, but I still am a low time guy in the learning process. Yes, if my school offered a 269 at a similar rate as the 22 I would be flying it for my private. I believe most of the major mechanical problems have been worked out of the Robbies. Pilots are aware of low G now. The Army even went threw the low G problem with the UH1/AH1 when they came out. B47's crash a lot too, but its because of the Ag environment that many fly in due to hitting things, from time to time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotowing Posted March 30, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 Well I don't understand what the amount of helicopters built nor how many other helicopters in the world have to do with anything, G.M. Toyota, Ford plus many other companies built 100's of thousands of cars and trucks last year and from Jan, till Oct of 2009, 16,600 plus people were killed in automobile crashes! Guess with that being said I need to give up driving and bye me a Robinson. Fly Safe! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
palmfish Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 Well I don't understand what the amount of helicopters built nor how many other helicopters in the world have to do with anything, G.M. Toyota, Ford plus many other companies built 100's of thousands of cars and trucks last year and from Jan, till Oct of 2009, 16,600 plus people were killed in automobile crashes! Guess with that being said I need to give up driving and bye me a Robinson. Fly Safe! More Ford's are involved in accidents every year than Lamborghini's, Porsche's, and Ferrari's combined! Ford makes the most dangerous cars in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowman Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 More Ford's are involved in accidents every year than Lamborghini's, Porsche's, and Ferrari's combined! Ford makes the most dangerous cars in the world. I know you meant to say Toyota!! My wife drives one every day! They say a lot of the issues with the runaway Toyota's are drivers error, like pilot error! We still own and drive a Toyota! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trans Lift Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 I'd take a Toyota (or any other Jap car) over a Ford any day. Well I don't understand what the amount of helicopters built nor how many other helicopters in the world have to do with anything Just not getting it are you You seem to be fighting an uphill battle here and going backwards! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotormandan Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 (edited) Well I don't understand what the amount of helicopters built nor how many other helicopters in the world have to do with anything, G.M. Toyota, Ford plus many other companies built 100's of thousands of cars and trucks last year and from Jan, till Oct of 2009, 16,600 plus people were killed in automobile crashes! Guess with that being said I need to give up driving and bye me a Robinson. Fly Safe! Simple numbers: Helicoper company "A" has made only 20 helicopters. 10 have crashed. Helicopter company "B" has made a whoppin' 50 helicopters but 12 have crashed. Would you still say helicopter company "A" is safer because it has less accidents? Edited March 30, 2010 by rotormandan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotowing Posted March 30, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 Trans I get itjust fine but untill you can give me the facts of how many helicopters flew that year, how may hours they flew, how many were students and how many were seasoned pilots then I don't see any sound evidence that the robinson is any safer than any other helicopter. We all know that with Silver State gone that there are less Robinsons sold and in the air than maybe a few years back so till you can provide these numbers then lighten up on your beliefs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trans Lift Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 Ah Roto, The whole point of this discussion was that you said they were unsafe. I'm not saying they are safer but I still don't think they are unsafe. Since you started the topic and you are about the only one who thinks they are unsafe why don't you do the research that you just suggested then come back and tell us the facts. I don't have any "beliefs", but you seem to and very strong ones. So provide the numbers and get back to us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captkirkyota Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 Ok <_ now it is time for this........ src="%7B___base_url___%7D/uploads/emoticons/default_laugh.png" alt=":lol:"> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EC120AV8R Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 Trans I get itjust fine but untill you can give me the facts of how many helicopters flew that year, how may hours they flew, how many were students and how many were seasoned pilots then I don't see any sound evidence that the robinson is any safer than any other helicopter. We all know that with Silver State gone that there are less Robinsons sold and in the air than maybe a few years back so till you can provide these numbers then lighten up on your beliefs I'm not sure all of the parameters you list have any affect on the outcome of the statistic you are looking for. Your assertion from the beginning is that Robinsons are inherently unsafe. The inherent lack of safety should be proven in the numbers of accidents in any given year(s). However, you can arrive to some of these conclusions you are looking for through anecdotal observation/evidence. On any given day, how many helicopter flights do you see out of your airport? How many are Robinson products versus any other model. Frankly, I think Silver State's demise has little affect on the overaqll outcome (if any). It is but one operator/buyer and there are still more Robinson helicopters out there than anything else. The ships Silver State had went elsewhere and are still being flown. Other operators continue to purchase them. Look, I don't fly a Robinson (I did at one time), I will never fly one again, so I don't really have any strong feeling or belief about them, other than to say that the numbers I put up just don't support your hypothesis. You can add all the factors in you want, and it still won't change the outcome. In simple terms, there's a baker's butt load of Robinsons out there and they are getting flown A LOT. The more there are and the more they get flown, the more likely they will be marginally higher in rate of accidents. I think the numbers prove they are only marginally higher, not grossly higher. I'm sure this won't be the end of the argument. Someone is going to want to know how many of the toal pilots were left handed, or had brown eyes, or drank more than two cups of coffee prior to the accident. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarab Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 I think what everyone is looking for is the ratio of accidents versus total hours flown per make. Like EC120 said the sliver state ships are still out there. I would guess that Robinsons fly vastly more hours per year, probably more than everyone else combined. That said their exposure to risk would be higher because they are in the air more. If you had 47 accidents flying 20,000 hours that would be 1 accident for every 425.53 hours flown. If you had 20 accidents flying 6,000 hours 20 divided by 6,000 that would be 1 accident for every 300 hours flown. So in this example the ship with 47 accidents is actually the safer of the two. There is really no way to definitively say how many hours different makes are flown. They all have listings in the NTSB reports sadly. Perhaps rather than argue the unprovable, to the uninterested, we can all better use our time trying to be the best pilot we can in whatever we fly. Let's wipe out pilot error! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldy Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 Trans I get itjust fine but untill you can give me the facts of how many helicopters flew that year, how may hours they flew, how many were students and how many were seasoned pilots then I don't see any sound evidence that the robinson is any safer than any other helicopter. We all know that with Silver State gone that there are less Robinsons sold and in the air than maybe a few years back so till you can provide these numbers then lighten up on your beliefs Roto- that has always been the big issue when trying to analyze any helicopter statistics. While the number of ships registered or manufactured is known, the hours flown is always a best guess from some analyst that doesnt know what a cyclic is. In an earlier post, you mentioned the accident rate going back 30 years or so. There is no doubt that Robbies had a very high accident rate early on, which led to the SFAR, the safety course, governors, Blade AD's and a host of other improvements. Most of us also realize that R22's (R44's to a lesser degree) are often flown by low time pilots, and that low time pilots can make some mistakes avoided by higher time guys. Or at least the insurance companies think that way. You're welcome to your opinion, but whether I jump in an R44, a Bell 47 or a 300, I don't think that any of the aircraft are more dangerous than another. I know flying has some inherent dangers, we all put up with those, and train to minimize them, but personally I am comfortable flying in just about any certified aircraft that is maintained. Again, I think more important than the aircraft, is the pilot involved. Lucky for us, that's the one area we can improve. You can call me dude if you want to. Goldy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldy Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 Look, I don't fly a Robinson (I did at one time), I will never fly one again, Hey now, never say never. I may just come down in the 44 one day and drag race the 120! BTW- I was at Hoag all weekend, looking out the window at you guys flying around. What a gorgeous couple of days down there. Goldy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADRidge Posted March 31, 2010 Report Share Posted March 31, 2010 (edited) I found an FAA spreadsheet a while back citing general aviation and air-taxi hours flown, and in 2007 (the last solid numbers) 704,000 flight hours were logged in piston helicopters. I think we can safely assume the majority of those were in Robinson aircraft. Thus, in 2007 it would make perfect sense if the majority of accidents were also in Robinson aircraft. I think the numbers I got could be wrong, but I found 1343 N-registered R-22's and 1328 N-registered R-44 helicopters as of 2007. The total number of N-reg piston helis by my count as of that same year was 5626. 2671 of those are Robinsons. That's a hair over half by my numbers. Now, I'd wager that the amount of Robinson hours to 269/300 or B-47 hours is disproportionate. I'd be interested to see if anyone could nail down a rough hour count for robinsons in the same year. Then we could really start to hash this out with numbers instead of this petty "mine is better than yours" crap. edited to add: I told myself I was NOT going to get into this. Ugh. Shame on me. Edited March 31, 2010 by ADRidge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MileHi480B Posted April 6, 2010 Report Share Posted April 6, 2010 (edited) Robbies have the largest number of privately owned helicopters. Period! Most owners are NOT professional pilots. And when it comes to accidents per fleet hours is there any accurate info? These two factors are the most important in evaluating safety. Not the number of choppers produced ... but the hours flown and by whom. Edited April 6, 2010 by MileHiR44 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IFLY Posted April 7, 2010 Report Share Posted April 7, 2010 (edited) No comment Edited April 7, 2010 by IFLYEVERYTHING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EC120AV8R Posted April 7, 2010 Report Share Posted April 7, 2010 Hey now, never say never. I may just come down in the 44 one day and drag race the 120! BTW- I was at Hoag all weekend, looking out the window at you guys flying around. What a gorgeous couple of days down there. Goldy Don't worry Goldy, I'm not bashing the Robbie....just trying to say I don't have a dog in this hunt. Why were you at Hoag? I will say, if you have to be in the hospital, you can't go wrong with an ocean view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotowing Posted April 8, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2010 Well as the old saying goes , we all agree that we disagree! I would like to know the facts on the total hrs flown a year in all helicopters as well as how many are out there that are not sold or flown each year and with the turndown in the economy I'm sure many new helicopters never sold last year. There is still many that silver state had that was for sale in 2009 making them not in the stats.. Bottom line is we all as helicopter pilots need to be careful reguardless what we fly!!! Fly safe! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.