Babysitting Flights?

[eagle5]

Continuing this trend on what a CFI can log, I have a question;

 

I am a rated pilot, I want to rent an R22 to go up for a joy ride. Your company doesn't rent, so I have to take one of your CFIs up with me.

 

I am not seeking any flight instruction, and since this is not an instrument flight I couldn't find anything in the regs that would label the CFI as a "safety pilot".

 

So, since he is essentially just "babysitting" me, can he log the flight?

[heligirl03]

Regardless of whether you are *seeking* instruction, you have purchased dual instruction for lack of other options. The CFI may not talk the entire flight but I'd expect to receive at least a few pointers, even if only regarding local custom or company op specs. The company has agreed to let you fly their aircraft only under the guidance of their CFI.

[Hovergirl]

Who's responsible if something goes wrong? Hopefully your 'babysitter' is also actively monitoring what's going on and making sure you're flying safely and not missing traffic/obstacles/radio calls etc. If you're a good pilot his job is easier but he shouldn't get too relaxed up there...

[eagle5]

You girls don't fly solo much do you?

[heligirl03]

[ridethisbike]

The REAL question is do you really care? In the end, you got what you wanted, to go fly their helicopter. Does it affect you if he does log it? Nope. So why does it matter?

 

If it were me, I wouldn't care and I personally would WANT him to log the flight!

 

If I were the CFI... I'm being paid to go up there with you to make sure nothing goes wrong. If we crash, guess who the company is going to blame? If you guessed me (as the CFI), you're correct. And me, being the CFI, I'd be hard pressed to think that the FAA wouldn't blame me as well. So you're damn right I'm going to log it.

 

 

 

And just out of curiosity, why did you ask them if they fly solo much? I fail to see the correlation with that and what they said in regards to your question... But I mostly ask this because with the lack of personality conveyed on the internet, it kind of came off as snobby. I doubt that was your intent, just how it came off.

[eagle5]

The REAL question is do you really care? In the end, you got what you wanted, to go fly their helicopter. Does it affect you if he does log it? Nope. So why does it matter?

 

If it were me, I wouldn't care and I personally would WANT him to log the flight!

 

If I were the CFI... I'm being paid to go up there with you to make sure nothing goes wrong. If we crash, guess who the company is going to blame? If you guessed me (as the CFI), you're correct. And me, being the CFI, I'd be hard pressed to think that the FAA wouldn't blame me as well. So you're damn right I'm going to log it.

 

 

 

And just out of curiosity, why did you ask them if they fly solo much? I fail to see the correlation with that and what they said in regards to your question... But I mostly ask this because with the lack of personality conveyed on the internet, it kind of came off as snobby. I doubt that was your intent, just how it came off.

 

I guess I asked because I found their remarks to be "snobby"!

[Flying Pig]

I had a situation where a CFI was a passenger in a Cessna. The PIC was a Private Pilot. The airplane was owned by the Private Pilot.

Private Pilot had several issues during the flight and ended up busted Class B Airspace. The CFI was a CFI OUTSIDE of work. He was not in the plane to provide ANY flight training, advice....nothing. He was merely one of 3 other passengers. When the private pilot busted the B, guess who the FAA wanted to talk to when they found out there was a CFI on the plane? Yep....... CFI wasnt found liable, but still had to answer some questions, write a statement, and there were questions as to why the passenger who just happened to be a CFI wasn't monitoring the progress of the flight, etc etc.

 

So in your scenario..... If I were the babysitter, responsible for bringing my bosses R22 back home. Daddy's loggin' it. Because I guarantee you if something happens and there is a CFI on board with access to the controls and you bend some metal, he'll be held to answer, and you'll walk away with the accident going on the CFI's ticket.

Edited August 5, 2012 by Flying Pig

[ridethisbike]

I guess I asked because I found their remarks to be "snobby"!

 

I didn't find that to be the case, but then again perception varies with the individual. I appreciate the answer though.

 

What about you eagle? If you were the CFI, would you log it?

 

I had a situation where a CFI was a passenger in a Cessna. The PIC was a Private Pilot. The airplane was owned by the Private Pilot.

Private Pilot had several issues during the flight and ended up busted Class B Airspace. The CFI was a CFI OUTSIDE of work. He was not in the plane to provide ANY flight training, advice....nothing. He was merely one of 3 other passengers. When the private pilot busted the B, guess who the FAA wanted to talk to when they found out there was a CFI on the plane? Yep....... CFI wasnt found liable, but still had to answer some questions, write a statement, and there were questions as to why the passenger who just happened to be a CFI wasn't monitoring the progress of the flight, etc etc.

 

So in your scenario..... If I were the babysitter, responsible for bringing my bosses R22 back home. Daddy's loggin' it. Because I guarantee you if something happens and there is a CFI on board with access to the controls and you bend some metal, he'll be held to answer, and you'll walk away with the accident going on the CFI's ticket.

 

Sounds about right. Just out of curiosity, where was that CFI sitting in the airplane?

[nightsta1ker]

I didn't find that to be the case, but then again perception varies with the individual. I appreciate the answer though.

 

What about you eagle? If you were the CFI, would you log it?

 

 

 

Sounds about right. Just out of curiosity, where was that CFI sitting in the airplane?

 

I was going to ask the same question. I bet the CFI in question was not held liable because they were not in a position to influence the flight. In the back of most light fixed wings you don't have a push to talk (unless you plug your own in... but why would you do that?), so if he/she couldn't handle the radio, and he/she couldn't move the controls, what could he/she do? Sit there and watch it unfold.

[Flying Pig]

He was up front. He wasnt liable because the plane was being chartered for a business flight. The CFI was actually having a business meeting on the way down...ie. discussing issues with his two partners in the back seat. Him being a CFI had nothing to do with him being on the plane. Him being a CFI had nothing to do with the business they were conducting. He just happened to be using an airplane for transportation, and happened to be a CFI in his outside work.

So it wasnt his responsibility to monitor the progress of the flight. Im sure had an emergency arose, he would have known. But looking at business notes in your lap, in conversation with your non-pilot business partners in the back seat, not liable, expecting the pilot to do what you chartered him to do was a reasonable assumption. I need to make a change. The pilot was an instrument rated, commercial pilot.

[aeroscout]

He was up front. He wasnt liable because the plane was being chartered for a business flight. The CFI was actually having a business meeting on the way down...ie. discussing issues with his two partners in the back seat. Him being a CFI had nothing to do with him being on the plane. Him being a CFI had nothing to do with the business they were conducting. He just happened to be using an airplane for transportation, and happened to be a CFI in his outside work.

So it wasnt his responsibility to monitor the progress of the flight. Im sure had an emergency arose, he would have known. But looking at business notes in your lap, in conversation with your non-pilot business partners in the back seat, not liable, expecting the pilot to do what you chartered him to do was a reasonable assumption. I need to make a change. The pilot was an instrument rated, commercial pilot.

 

I thought he was a private pilot ? There's just no substitute for a professional pilot, eventually everyone learns this lesson.

[Flying Pig]

^Check out the last sentence in my post that you quoted.

[aeroscout]

I had a situation where a CFI was a passenger in a Cessna. The PIC was a Private Pilot. The airplane was owned by the Private Pilot.

Private Pilot had several issues during the flight and ended up busted Class B Airspace. The CFI was a CFI OUTSIDE of work. He was not in the plane to provide ANY flight training, advice....nothing. He was merely one of 3 other passengers. When the private pilot busted the B, guess who the FAA wanted to talk to when they found out there was a CFI on the plane? Yep....... CFI wasnt found liable, but still had to answer some questions, write a statement, and there were questions as to why the passenger who just happened to be a CFI wasn't monitoring the progress of the flight, etc etc.

 

So in your scenario..... If I were the babysitter, responsible for bringing my bosses R22 back home. Daddy's loggin' it. Because I guarantee you if something happens and there is a CFI on board with access to the controls and you bend some metal, he'll be held to answer, and you'll walk away with the accident going on the CFI's ticket.

 

This is where the confusion began for me. Your second sentence in this reply #8 says private pilot.

[Spike]

Continuing this trend on what a CFI can log, I have a question;

 

I am a rated pilot, I want to rent an R22 to go up for a joy ride. Your company doesn't rent, so I have to take one of your CFIs up with me.

 

I am not seeking any flight instruction, and since this is not an instrument flight I couldn't find anything in the regs that would label the CFI as a "safety pilot".

 

So, since he is essentially just "babysitting" me, can he log the flight?

 

First off, why would anyone attend a school that doesn’t rent? That would be dumb.

 

Secondly, what is the purpose of the flight? If the purpose of the flight has nothing to do with “flight training”, then the CFI cannot log the time. A CFI can only log PIC time when providing “flight instruction”. And, if I read your post correctly, the purpose of the CFI flying with you is to “protect” the company from any wrongdoing committed by you (liability). With that, there is no stipulation in the FAR’s which allow for a CFI to log PIC time for “liability” purposes. Furthermore, company policy has no bearing on the FAR’s. Simply put, liability protection does not allow a CFI to log PIC time just because of his mere presents.....

 

Lastly, when talking about who the feds point fingers at when an incident occurs, it’s usually the most experienced regardless of certification level….

Edited August 8, 2012 by Spike

[Flying Pig]

This is where the confusion began for me. Your second sentence in this reply #8 says private pilot.

Yes and then I corrected it in #11. I thought he was a PPL when I made post #8. I ran the story by the guy involved and he corrected me. So I made the disclaimer in #11 Clear as mud?

[eagle5]

First off, why would anyone attend a school that doesn’t rent? That would be dumb.

 

Secondly, what is the purpose of the flight? If the purpose of the flight has nothing to do with “flight training”, then the CFI cannot log the time. A CFI can only log PIC time when providing “flight instruction”. And, if I read your post correctly, the purpose of the CFI flying with you is to “protect” the company from any wrongdoing committed by you (liability). With that, there is no stipulation in the FAR’s which allow for a CFI to log PIC time for “liability” purposes. Furthermore, company policy has no bearing on the FAR’s. Simply put, liability protection does not allow a CFI to log PIC time just because of his mere presents.....

 

Lastly, when talking about who the feds point fingers at when an incident occurs, it’s usually the most experienced regardless of certification level….

 

During my training I flew with a couple of CFIs who had trained at schools that wouldn't rent to them after graduation! I thought it was quite rediculous! I can understand if perhaps your insurance company won't allow you to rent to outsiders,but your own graduates!,...that's messed up!

 

The purpose of the flight is "a joy ride". Perhaps a better scenario would be; a 3500hr pilot who flies tours in Hawaii, goes home to Nebraska for vacation. While there a couple of his freinds want him to take them for a ride. The only local school in the area has an R44, but doesn't rent it out (even though he is BFR and passenger current in the R44), so they tell him if he wants to take his freinds up, one of their CFIs will be in the front seat with him,...to protect the company, I guess?

 

I've done a few of these flights as the "renter" and the CFI didn't instruct me in any way, and I didn't want him to either, I just wanted to enjoy the flight! We did "chew the fat" a little, but nothing aviation related. I don't know if he logged the flight as instruction given and he's no longer around for me to ask.

 

Would I, as the CFI, log one of these flights? I don't know! I guess that's why I started this thread?

[helonorth]

Although you may not be getting formal instruction, the CFI will be there to keep you out of trouble (babysitting). In other words: acting as a CFI. I would think of it the same way as a stage check. You are not being instructed, but being evaluated. That is also an instructors job. I would (and did) log it. You can bet the CFI will be guarding the controls when you're close to the ground and performing some maneuvers, too.

 

Edit: I reread your original post. I guess if you are not there to get checked out for solo renting, it would be up to the CFI as what to log. To me, it would have a lot to do with what went on during the flight.

Edited August 8, 2012 by helonorth

[pilot#476398]

What Spike said on #15 makes the most sense to me. If I'm ever asked to do one of these flights, I won't be logging it. I'll still be getting paid though!

[helonorth]

If you are just going to sit there with your hands in your lap and you mouth closed, don't log it. There will absolutely be some teaching going on and and as the renter will be an unknown quantity, you will be close on the controls. Same stuff a CFI normally does. Log what you conscience allows.

Edited August 9, 2012 by helonorth

[Spike]

In my experience, the CFI is there because the flight school owner refuses to include (read pay for) the renting option on their insurance policy. The rental must include an employee (the CFI), i.e. "babysitting", is a way to circumnavigate this policy restriction and a disservice to the customer.....

 

Every day I fly, there are 2 CFI’s onboard. To believe both of us can log PIC time is ridiculous. Why? The purpose of the flight IS NOT flight instruction....

 

In mean really. A renter, who may be a 3500 hour ATP, being evaluated by a 210 hour CFI for liability purposes….. This makes no sense whatsoever...

[eagle5]

If you are just going to sit there with your hands in your lap and you mouth closed, don't log it. There will absolutely be some teaching going on and and as the renter will be an unknown quantity, you will be close on the controls. Same stuff a CFI normally does. Log what you conscience allows.

 

I suppose I wasn't completely honest when I said we didn't talk about aviation. The first flight I did (as the "renter") the CFI had just been hired from out of town, so he wasn't familiar with the area yet.

 

In this particular scenario I had been renting the R22, but they didn't rent the R44 (for insurance reasons, I presume?), so, I wasn't an "unknown quantity"!

 

I took him to a place he'd never been, showed him the local landmarks, reporting points, told him what the area CTAF was, etc... We even went to an airport he'd never been to (I figured I'd do a touch and go to get xc credit) and at one point, on the approach he remarked that he was glad I was familiar with this place because he couldn't pick out the runway! (In his defence, it was at night and that particular airport has several runways and taxiways, and can look very confusing at night, especially if you've never been there before!)

 

So yes, I guess there was instruction going on, but as I was just a PPL at the time, I couldn't log it as such!

Edited August 9, 2012 by eagle5

[nightsta1ker]

I can see Spike's point but if I am going to be required to be there by the owner/operator for any reason, I will be logging the time because (and this is just my opinion) I am a required crewmember at that point for that flight. The real reason is because I want to build flight time. Is this immoral? That's debatable. Is it going to hurt any of the parties involved? Certainly not, and I see no harm in it.

[Flying Pig]

In my experience, the CFI is there because the flight school owner refuses to include (read pay for) the renting option on their insurance policy. The rental must include an employee (the CFI), i.e. "babysitting", is a way to circumnavigate this policy restriction and a disservice to the customer.....

 

Every day I fly, there are 2 CFI's onboard. To believe both of us can log PIC time is ridiculous. Why? The purpose of the flight IS NOT flight instruction....

 

In mean really. A renter, who may be a 3500 hour ATP, being evaluated by a 210 hour CFI for liability purposes….. This makes no sense whatsoever...

 

That can be a dangerous combo!....... and add to that both CFIs are cops too Theres more Type AAA in that helo than in a box of Duracell!

Edited August 9, 2012 by Flying Pig

[Spike]

I can see Spike's point but if I am going to be required to be there by the owner/operator for any reason, I will be logging the time because (and this is just my opinion) I am a required crewmember at that point for that flight. The real reason is because I want to build flight time. Is this immoral? That's debatable. Is it going to hurt any of the parties involved? Certainly not, and I see no harm in it.

 

Respectfully, I'd be real carful. A part 91 "joy ride" has no flightcrew requirement. Like mentioned above, company policy cannot supersede the FAR's. Thus, by the regulations, you are not required to be there. Its a company policy that requires you to be there. Zero correlation.

 

IMO, morality has little to do with it and while you see no harm in it, some Fed Inspector may think otherwise. Plus, this is a little more severe matter than the "loggable flight time" debate......

Edited August 9, 2012 by Spike