Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...?

[RkyMtnHI]

I hope i can shed some light on this subject for the OP and others, from the operators side of things (one of them anyway).

Reading back over this before i post it, and yes, i printed it out and reread it while i was at the dentist today, i fear that some my take this personal... do not do that, do not let your mind go that way, put your ego in your pocket right now and learn from this and what others are saying.

Please keep in mind that these are just my humble opinions and i don’t know squat.. i did however help nine people get hired over the last six or seven months by connecting them (for no money, just love), so these things could help if you pay attention.

First, the best thing you can do is to KNOW SOMEBODY!! Many of us have said this over and over; networking is the key in this industry, or ONE of the keys anyway. Say that someone walks in my door with a perfect resume and i really like the pilot, there is NO WAY i’m going to offer the person a job on the spot because i just do NOT KNOW them. Like in a relationship, i don’t think you really get to know the person for months, and the only way to do this in a short period of time is to know somebody that you trust that knows them.. period. I guess folks that are hiring a lot of pilots might have to chance it, but for the most part, it IS taking a chance. I would be more likely to say that i am interested and ask that they spend some time with the team to see if they fit, and to get the rest of the team’s feelings on the candidate. I would NEVER tell someone to spend more time with us, or come visit, unless i was sincerely interested (just for the record, i called to recommend someone a month or so ago, to one of the larger tour companies, and the DO said, ‘he does know that he has to come see me to get hired right?’, meaning that even with my recommendation he wouldn’t consider hiring him without a face to face interview, kinda a no brainer i hope, YOU HAVE TO GET IN FRONT OF US).

There is also the BS of people lying on their resumes and padding their log books but that’s another subject, one that pisses the sh*t out of me as i have seen it close to home, and believe me when i say this, it will come back to haunt you, even if you get the job, it will find you later as this is a small community.

All the CFIIs that i have hired i met more than two times, either at HeliSuccess/HeliExpo, or they visited CHO more than once. The folks that i helped move up i either have worked with before, helped before, or knew them thru other operators. One came to see me last month and i called seven or eight people in about two hours, he had lots of options at the end of the day (he had lots of options to start with, but it’s nice to have more, and those people now know that i would recommend him and that stays with him as he moves along... NETWORK).

I spoke with a candidate the other day that didn’t know what HeliSuccess was and had never been to HeliExpo, he has almost 700 hours. Just being here on VR and trying to learn sets you apart from the start. If you do anything for your career, whether you are looking for a job or not, GO TO HELISUCCESS, meet people, NETWORK.

Now, back to your questions or comments:

Its just an R44 tour gig. The pay is really, really low. However last year he did give me a copy of the POH with a company cover on it, and his business card,...one more reason I was a bit shocked that I didn't get it!

Kinda sounds like it wasn’t what you really wanted.. maybe he could tell that or got that impression... read on..

Things change quickly in this business, and unexpectedly, and sometimes operators cannot control the changes. One CFII that i hired came to see me four times, i really liked the guy, he had the time in the right platforms and some time at altitude. I really wanted to hire him but didn’t have room for him at the time (schools that care about the balance and their team have to keep the right ratio of pilots in training to instructors or no one moves on). During the five or six months that he kept coming back (might have been longer, i know i’ve posted about this before but it’s been a year or two), it was time for two of my team to move on so it looked like i had a spot for him, then, one of my guys got hired by a company and i called him. Before he came back to see me the company sold and the CFII lost his job and came back (this happened in a couple of days). So, even tho i really wanted this guy on our team, things happen. I did end up hiring him a few months later tho as the original CFII was hired by another operator, and the candidate kept coming back, telling me that i Would hire him (yep, what Spike said).

I was gonna call yesterday when I saw the ad, but decided to just send my resume instead. I don't meet all of their requirements this time which makes me a bit apprehensive about calling. I fear that he'll just say, "yeah sure, just come out for an interview" , then I'll get there and again, "just miss the cut"!

Makes me wonder here, if you had the time last year and then don’t this, and/or you didn’t have it last year and still don’t this year... if you are not flying it’s really hard for us to take a chance on your skills, and we wonder why you are not flying (even tho it could have NOTHING to do with your skills or professionalism). So, i said that to say, KEEP flying, stay at the job you have until you get another one, or find a school and fly to keep current, i know it costs money, find a way, the hard part is over.. you are almost there. If we really like someone and want to help them we’ll put them on mx flights or empty seats just to keep them going, if you are that person, earn it. Like someone said above, you have to want it bad in this biz, because there are some that do and they are your competition.

If he really meant it when he said "If it doesn't work out with one of the other pilots, I'll give you a call", then why didn't he call when he needed someone?

We see so many people, and get a ton of resumes, it’s hard to remember who you all are. This is one of the reasons i like to see a photo on the resume, i know it’s controversial, but it helps me remember people. I also keep resumes in a file close to me so i can look them up when they call or send an email. It’s not out of disrespect that i don’t remember, it’s just that there are so many candidates (and i’m old.. lol). And, most important, if i haven’t heard from one candidate, and another one has been in my office four times telling me why he/she wants to work for CHO, well, you can imagine which one i am going to call. We have to KNOW that you want THIS JOB.. not just any job, but THIS ONE. And we have to know that asking you to move cross country will work for everyone considered: the candidate, his family or significant others, the team at the school, the school and pilots in training, we think about all of this. This is a good reason that the cover letters are so important. You can tell us things that we can’t ask, or shouldn’t, like how much do you weigh (very important for operators at altitude), that your family supports you, that you know what our perspective company is all about..

This guy called me several times before the last interview (even left a message the first time,...what employer does that?,...most would just move on to the next resume!) A lot of mixed signals, which again, makes me apprehensive!

This paragraph makes me think you need to be more positive in everything you do.. reek enthusiasm and positive energy, i know that’s hard sometimes, but in this biz you better learn how to do it cuz you will need it to persevere.. i always say that the industry for me is like a codependent woman (yeah, i’ve known a few), one day she loves me and the next she hates me.. if i have learned anything it’s that you have to move forward with energy and focus all the time, all the time, especially when you want to give up, just put your head down and KNOW that she’ll love you tomorrow. :-)

oh yeah, what Spike said, as usual. just saying.

sincerely,

dp

[eagle5]

Kinda sounds like it wasn’t what you really wanted.. maybe he could tell that or got that impression... read on..

 

Actually, a year ago, I would have loved to have spent my summer days flying tourists around the beach in an R44!

 

I was so certain after the interview that I had it, that the first thing I did when I got home, was go to AAA and get some maps to plan my route there. Then I got my car checked out, and started dividing my stuff into, what to take, and what to put in storage! I was really excited!, so when the call came that I didn't get it, I guess it just ripped a huge hole in me that since then has just been filled with cynicism and pessimism,...probably why I've made such posts as, "The more I learn about commercial aviation, the less I want to be a part of it"?

 

You know, the only thing that I can think of that would have possibly changed his mind, is that I had to take a personality test on his computer,...maybe I didn't guess correctly? I also had to pass a background check,...but there's nothing adverse there, so...?

 

Anyway, thanks for the responses.

[Spike]

It’s been talked about before, many times. It’s been discussed in detail as well, many, many times. Rejection is a part of this business. That is, there WILL be far more “thanks but no thanks” responses to the very few “you’re hired” responses. Get used to it. While it may feel personal (after all, they are rejecting your ego) it rarely is. There are just too many pilots out here to make it personal. Therefore, never use emotion to guide your decision making. Use your intelligence. Develop the situation and never ignore an opportunity….

[eagle5]

This next post is to see if any of you low timers have ever experience such odd interest from an employer?

 

About a year ago, I got the first call, roughly 1 month after sending in my resume. It was about 9pm so I didn't answer (not knowing who it was). Later, noticing I had voicemail, I checked it to see that it was a guy calling about my resume,...he said call back tonight, so I did. I got the machine, so I left a message.

 

A few minutes later he calls back #2. We talked for a bit, then he invited me up for an interview (made it sound like just a formality, like I already had it). He said to call back with details. I made the arrangements, called, got the machine, left a message.

 

The next day, he calls back #3, to confirm the arrangements. Nothing unusual yet.

 

My flight got in around 10pm. Got to the hotel around midnight (2 hr drive). At hotel I notice a voicemail on my phone. He called to see if I made it there ok #4. Since it was midnight I decided to call back the next morning.

 

The next day around 9am he calls #5, just to confirm that I made it ok.

 

My interview was in the afternoon, and yet again, about an hour before, he calls again #6 to make sure I'm still going to come!

 

This guy called 6 times before the interview, in a three day period! Is this normal? Have any of you other low timers experienced anything like this?,...because I haven't, before, or since!

 

...I mean, if this had been a blind date set up, I'd a been really nervous!

[ralpez]

I haven't made my jump into the industry yet, so I am looking at this from an outsider's view. But, how much contact have you had with this guy since the interview last year? It sounds like everything was going great and I realize that the rejection hurt, but have you spoke with him since? Maybe he assumes you already moved on to a different gig. I would think that, if an applicant never contacted me again.

[Lindsey]

You are reading too much into this, eagle. If you want the job, put 110% effort into getting it. Pretend last year's rejection never happened and approach it with the attitude that you are fresh, excited, and ready to start. If you don't want the job, just politely call him and say you are no longer interested but appreciate his time.

[rotormandan]

You are reading too much into this, eagle. If you want the job, put 110% effort into getting it. Pretend last year's rejection never happened and approach it with the attitude that you are fresh, excited, and ready to start. If you don't want the job, just politely call him and say you are no longer interested but appreciate his time.

 

I 2nd that. You're analyzing way to much instead of just doing. You probably got bumped last year because someone else showed up that was recommended or knew someone who had worked there before. Someone else had a connection and you getting bumped didn't have anything do to do with you.

[avbug]

This next post is to see if any of you low timers have ever experience such odd interest from an employer?

 

You've already asked that, and it's already been answered. Yes.

 

I experienced it as a low-time pilot, and as a more senior pilot, too. Just a few days ago it happened again, and I turned the guy down.

 

I've had it happen not just once or twice, but in one case, seven years running. In another case, I came for the interview, stayed several weeks, and was sent home unexpectedly. Seven years later I was called to come in again. I came. I was offered. Then nothing. A year later, we went through the process again. It happens.

 

It wasn't me; it was a government program and the program emphasis (and funding) shifted. It happens. So it happens with many jobs. The economy changes. The individuals who have applied to the job change. Competition comes along that's better. Old employees come back . People who were leaving find that their next job didn't pan out either, and they stay. Your new position is no longer vacant. It is what it is, and that is aviation. Get used to it.

[Counterrotate]

It is what it is, and that is aviation. Get used to it.

 

True that!!

[eagle5]

It happens. So it happens with many jobs. The economy changes. The individuals who have applied to the job change. Competition comes along that's better. Old employees come back . People who were leaving find that their next job didn't pan out either, and they stay. Your new position is no longer vacant. It is what it is, and that is aviation. Get used to it.

 

Rejection is a part of this business. That is, there WILL be far more “thanks but no thanks” responses to the very few “you’re hired” responses. Get used to it.

 

True that!!

 

So many cliches,...the last one's my favorite! Where's the emotocon for "I'm going to hurl!"?,...I guess this one's close.

 

Oh' how I wish I could have a poll without a comment section!

[ridethisbike]

DP, I don't have the certs or time yet, but when I do, I'm coming to see you, and you're going to hire me. Maybe not on the spot, maybe not for 6 months. One day though, you're going to have that spot, and you're going to put me in it.

 

 

For everyone wondering, I'll let you know in the future if this worked for me. It'll be another year before I'm hire-able, but I'm not going to forget.

[avbug]

So many cliches,...the last one's my favorite! Where's the emotocon for "I'm going to hurl!"?,...I guess this one's close.

 

Oh' how I wish I could have a poll without a comment section!

 

Oh, please, please, please, someone who has been in this position before tell me their sad tale, help me justify this job. Anyone? Anyone at all? Has anyone ever been there? Is it just me? How could this happen, and what do I do?

 

Again and again...and you don't want comments after your poll. You begged for comments. Now you don't want them.

 

You get the information. You're told, and you don't like it. You ask again. You're told again. Eventually you dislike the information so much it's cliche, and all you can think to say is that you wish no one had commented.

 

Oh, to be young and to know everything, once again. This is why God invented the ignore button.

Edited February 16, 2013 by avbug

[ralpez]

I hope that last comment doesn't send this thread the way of "Cherry Drying"

[eagle5]

Oh, please, please, please, someone who has been in this position before tell me their sad tale, help me justify this job. Anyone? Anyone at all? Has anyone ever been there? Is it just me? How could this happen, and what do I do?

 

Again and again...and you don't want comments after your poll. You begged for comments. Now you don't want them.

 

You get the information. You're told, and you don't like it. You ask again. You're told again. Eventually you dislike the information so much it's cliche, and all you can think to say is that you wish no one had commented.

 

Oh, to be young and to know everything, once again. This is why God invented the ignore button.

 

I keep making the mistake of acknowledging your posts, so now I am going to take your advice,...IGNORE!

[pilot#476398]

I hope that last comment doesn't send this thread the way of "Cherry Drying"

 

Or worse, "Fudging the Logbook"!

 

I also interviewed with him last year, and got the "if it doesn't work out with one of the other pilots..." line! He hired like 16 pilots, so there are probably a sh*t load of us who are "next in line"!

[Flying Pig]

Or worse, "Fudging the Logbook"!

 

That thread was an epic journey of biblical proportion!!!!

[Spike]

That thread was an epic journey of biblical proportion!!!!

 

But I’m an Atheist…….

 

I am……….

 

No really, I am………..

 

Swear to God…………….

[aeroscout]

If you are in the enviable position of having a flying job while looking for a flying job, congratulations. That is of course, the ideal.

If you don't have a flying job, as soon as you get one you will have a leg up.

[Counterrotate]

Just read the Fudging the Logbook thread. Well... Parts of it anyway. All I can say is... wow. Just wow.

[silver-eagle]

It doesn't seem like you are too enthusiastic about the job and that's really what a potential employer wants to see. Back 36 years ago, I kept applying for a job (non flying) at job fairs and via job ads. One of the HR people I met remembered me and right then, set up a job interview. I stayed 4 1/2 years there. So yeah, it's worth it if YOU really want the job.

I've been on interviews I thought went very well only to find they hired someone else. Who knows? The next guy through the door might have been better, left a better impression, willing to work for less, etc. Until you know the guy, he really doesn't know you.

His crap shoot.

[aeroscout]

Just read the Fudging the Logbook thread. Well... Parts of it anyway. All I can say is... wow. Just wow.

It's one of my favorites. I am seriously considering resurrecting it and being a modern day Mary Shelley. My tentative title will be "Fudging the Logbook Part II" Or "Everything you need to know about Fudging the Logbook that got left out of "Fudging the Logbook"" Too soon ? Too long ?

[SemperGumby]

 

It's one of my favorites. I am seriously considering resurrecting it and being a modern day Mary Shelley. My tentative title will be "Fudging the Logbook Part II" Or "Everything you need to know about Fudging the Logbook that got left out of "Fudging the Logbook"" Too soon ? Too long ?

 

Just head on over to Fudging the Cherry. :-)

[CharyouTree]

Just head on over to Fudging the Cherry. :-)

 

That just sounds dirty.

[eagle5]

Well, I got invited to go up and interview again this year! It looks like the vote is 9 to 6 in favor of going so...

[Fred0311]

You judging based on an Internet vote... Ok if you don't want to go ill show up for your interview and let them know theyll be hiring me in a couple years.