Atheist-Pilot: A Dangerous Combination!

[Mike West]

Again, Christians claim to have the big answer but choke on small questions.

"God" admonishes Christians to pray in his name. Matthew 18:19 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven."

Please answer this question. If prayer worked, why aren't Christians staffing ambulances, EMT helicopters, dentist offices, and hospitals and healing people on the spot?

In summary:

1) God says for two Christians to pray and he'll answer their prayers.

2) I ask Christians, "Why don't Christians pray and heal the sick?"

3) Christian response: "Don't be obtuse. You presume to tell God what to do?"

4a) The Christian ignores Matthew 18:19 (Item 1).

4b) The Christian does not answer the question (Item 2).

4c) The Christian uses "god's" love to criticize me, "Don't be obtuse" (which is a moral action per the believer).

4d) The most intelligent response from the Christians is to tell everyone that "God" does not want us to pray, "You presume to tell God what to do?"

5a) God instructs Christians to pray in his name, see: Matthew 18:19.

5b) Christians claim that prayer works!!

5c) Why is the believer telling me (or them) not to pray?

 

Believers are making fantastic claims, "Prayer works!", "I know there is a god!", "The Bible is the word of god!!!". Therefore, per the Bible, god instructs his followers to pray in his name and it will work!!!

Believer: Answer my question: If prayer worked, why aren't Christians staffing ambulances, EMT helicopters, dentist offices, and hospitals and take care of the immediate medical needs of people through the power of prayer?

[avbug]

"God" admonishes Christians to pray in his name. Matthew 18:19 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven."

 

 

Wrong.

 

Christ is not God. Christ admonished those who pray to God to do so in Christ's name.

 

You take the verse seriously, you say, but you take it out of context and don't understand the verse. To whom is Christ speaking? To his twelve apostles. Read the first verse in the chapter. The apostles questioned Christ, and he answered.

 

Please answer this question. If prayer worked, why aren't Christians staffing ambulances, EMT helicopters, dentist offices, and hospitals and healing people on the spot?

 

Asked, and answered. Read. You've come on here with no credibility to not discuss aviation, but to argue venom about your hatred for Christianity, religion, and faith. You repeat the same questions over and over. Don't you have a religion board to troll, instead?

 

 

In summary:

1) God says for two Christians to pray and he'll answer their prayers.

2) I ask Christians, "Why don't Christians pray and heal the sick?"

3) Christian response: "Don't be obtuse. You presume to tell God what to do?"

4a) The most intelligent response from the Christian is to ignore Matthew 18:19 (Item 1).

4b) Don't answer the question (Item 2).

4c) Use "god's" love to criticize me, "Don't be obtuse" (which is a moral action per the believer).

4d) Tell everyone that "God" does not want us to pray, "You presume to tell God what to do?"

5a) God instructs Christians to pray in his name, see: Matthew 18:19.

5b) Christians claim that prayer works!!

5c) Why is the believer telling me not to pray?

 

 

 

1) this is a lie. You've misquoted the scripture, made broad, incorrect assumptions about its meaning, the speaker, and the audience, and then misapplied it entirely.

2)You ask the wrong question. Try asking the right question.

3)You're assuming I'm Christian.

4a)Another lie. You were not told to ignore the scripture. You were told that you misunderstood, misapplied, and lied about it. You were correctly told so.

4b)The question was answered. Your statement to the contrary is a lie.

4c)Gods love? What's that to do with the price of tea in China. I said nothing of love. You were told not to be obtuse because it was more polite than telling you to stop being an a**hole.

4d)No statement was made directing anyone to pray or not pray. This is another lie on your part.

5a)The scripture to which you refer concerns a discussion between Christ and the small body of persons in his entourage. Your assertion otherwise shows gross misunderstanding of the passage, as well as a willful misapplication, which is also a lie.

5b)Christians do claim prayer works, don't they? What is not defined is "works." You may broad sweeping assumptions about this meaning, which are wrong.

5c)No one has instructed you not to pray. Your assertion, therefore, is another lie.

Edited October 17, 2013 by avbug

[Mike West]

We can see that Christians find it completely moral to lie, per their invisible sky daddy.

 

Again, you have not answered my question. You claim to be in communication with an all powerful being (Prayer works!!!!), so answer my question.

[Mike West]

It's dangerous to be with people who believe in the mythology of any religion as they are living in a fantasy world.

 

1) When people explain that invisible friends don't exist, they get angry, abusive and demand to stop the conversation. "I don't have to talk to you about my belief," "You have no right to criticize my belief" (yes we do) and "I am immune from criticism".

 

2) If the believer has a dream or is told that it's moral to hate or kill people (hatred towards nonbelievers or is urged to kill others, for example 911), they can be compelled to do so.

[avbug]

We can see that Christians find it completely moral to lie, per their invisible sky daddy.

 

We do not. Your assertion, therefore, is another lie.

Again, you have not answered my question. You claim to be in communication with an all powerful being (Prayer works!!!!), so answer my question.

 

Your "questions" have been given answers, and far more attention than they merit or deserve.

 

I have made no claim to be in communication with a powerful being, and therefore again, you lie.

 

Clearly any correspondence with you is wasteful, and you're violating the terms of service here. You're no scientist. A scientist does not need to fabricate or lie to make his point, yet every line you type is a lie. As you're so fond of quoting scripture, you may remember an injunction against bearing false witness.

 

Clearly as you're without credibility and have no purpose but to press your agenda at all costs, you may be dismissed as not worth the time or effort, and being unworthy of further response, may be safely placed on the ignore list.

[palmfish]

Mike, I am not a Christian yet I agree with everything avbug has said to you. You are trolling in a forum you do not belong in.

 

I personally will not waste another word on you.

[AdminLB]

We can see that Christians find it completely moral to lie, per their invisible sky daddy.

 

Again, you have not answered my question. You claim to be in communication with an all powerful being (Prayer works!!!!), so answer my question.

Mr. West,

 

My name is Lyn and I am the forum owner. I appreciate your interest in the subject. Personally, in the context of the original post (from a working, career helicopter pilot), I have found the discussion to be somewhat interesting.

 

Although topics that surround faith or politics would normally not be encouraged in this forum, I allowed it to stay. I allowed it because of the context in which it was brought up, and also because, for the most part, the conversation was civil. It's OK to ask questions, debate, and to challenge the ideas, but attacking individuals does nothing for the conversation.

 

So long as the conversation is civil and does not become disruptive, I have no problem allowing it to continue. This is why we participate in communities such as this. We enjoy (and sometimes cringe) seeing the world through the eyes of colleagues . . . even the personal issues. It makes us feel more connected as people.

 

My concern with your recent posts is that I question the intent of your posts. The rate of your replies and offensive tone lends me to believe that you are not a member of the community (in the helicopter industry) or that you just happen to be here debating faith with colleagues. But more of a troll who would not be here otherwise, but for using this as a battleground to attack faith and the people of it.

 

It seems to be your primary personal mission in that, no matter what anyone answers to your questions --- if they do not 100% agree, you will come back screaming even louder with inflammatory posts in an effort to raise the fever pitch another notch or two and bait someone into a descending, childish yelling match.

 

Example: "We can see that Christians find it completely moral to lie, per their invisible sky daddy."

 

I recognize that this thread has brought out some interesting (and even crazy) perspectives, but that's just like real life. Make your case and move along. To think you are going to change an anonymous person's mind here, on a subject as personal as faith, is pure folly, and to spend massive amounts of time doing so, lacks wisdom. In other words, engage and make your case. But do not attack the people or intentionally be offensive with the primary intent of inflaming other members of the community. If you do, I will have to block you.

[aeroscout]

Actually, gravity is basic physics as can be calculated as a function of proximal distance between two objects of a given mass. It's really not that mysterious.

To my knowledge, the cause of gravitational force has never been discovered. If you were able to, and find a force that would be it's opposite, you could be a very rich man.

[pilot#476398]

I thought the force opposite gravity was dark energy, which is what's not only causing all the galaxies to move away from each other, but to actually cause the expanding universe to accelerate instead of slow down?

 

Plus I thought gravity was caused by objects warping the space around them?

Edited October 17, 2013 by pilot#476398

[aeroscout]

According to my understanding of dark energy, it is a postulated theoretical force. All the gravity of the universe isn't causing the universe to behave taking into account only gravity. So it is theorized that there is a dark matter force which makes up the difference.

[AdminLB]

According to my understanding of dark energy, it is a postulated theoretical force. All the gravity of the universe isn't causing the universe to behave taking into account only gravity. So it is theorized that there is a dark matter force which makes up the difference.

This has to be the craziest thread in the history of VR. From Christianity to agnosticism to atheism to Cabbies performing BFR's to theology to dark energy.

 

I feel like I did after watching the movie Fight Club . . . I walked away unsure if I had liked it or not. Mildly entertained and totally conflicted.

[pilot#476398]

Funny, I looked into becoming a cabbie once,...and didn't Travolta play an aspiring young pilot working as a cabbie once,...back when Kirsty Alley was still hot!?

[Mike West]

A message to everyone concerned.

 

1) I did not bring up the topic "Atheist-Pilot: A Dangerous Combination!" And furthermore, I would have never posted a blog title, "Christian-Pilot: A Dangerous Combination!" Even though I could obviously argue the point for years!! Haha.

 

1a) I am responding on this forum (as I am in the helicopter industry) to rebut the absurd assertion "Atheist-Pilot: A Dangerous Combination!" that a blanket statement made like this has no credibility. And it is no surprise to me that believers (from extremely liberal to possibly fundamentalist) can't take the debate. This is how all Christians I've ever encountered react to debate and criticism.

 

2) Remember what Christians did to Galileo Galilei? The church wanted to put him to death (however, he had powerful friends so he was not killed) but he still had to live the rest of his life under house arrest. Why is that? Because he opposed religious belief. According to the Bible, the earth is still but Galileo said, "No, the Earth revolves around the sun." And the leaders of the church did not like this and wanted him killed. That's one of the reasons why it was called the Dark Ages, it was "a period of intellectual darkness" per Wikipedia.

 

Notes: Biblical references Psalm 93:1, 96:10, and 1 Chronicles 16:30 include text stating that "the world is firmly established, it cannot be moved." In the same manner, Psalm 104:5 says, "the Lord set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved." Further, Ecclesiastes 1:5 states that "And the sun rises and sets and returns to its place." -Wikipedia.

 

2a) In other words, Christians feel they have the right to criticize people who are not in their religious cult but oh, ho, ho... when someone stands up to the bullies of Christianity, watch out! Cries of wrong doing are shouted from the mountain tops! Christian think: "I can criticize your humanity but don't you dare criticize my religious belief! DO NOT TELL ME THAT I HAVE AN INVISIBLE FRIEND. I'm going to scream bloody murder!! How dare you make fun of my invisible friend."

 

2b) And this is a simply a forum. I have not hit anyone and I have not threatened anyone. (I wouldn't do either of these things because I am moral using scientific formulas and life-advice from great thinkers and I don't subscribe to the immoral teachings of the Bible.) I am simply laughing at all people who believe in an invisible sky daddy because in the Scientific Age, we laugh at credulity.

 

3) The truth is this, Christianity is a hate organization due to the erroneous doctrine of original sin. Sin is a man-made concept. Sin is a myth. People do good and bad things but there is no such thing as sin. Yet Christians want free rein to devalue anyone who has not joined their religious cult.

 

4) If the Bible was actually written by an all powerful being, there would be thousands of timeless morals and ethics which would apply to any culture, in any time period of human history which could never be misinterpreted or taken out of context or be used for evil. Yet, the moral instructions of the Bible simply don't stand the test of time as the Bible is filled with a plethora of outdated teachings and horrific immoral instructions.

 

4a) Proof of #4. Make a list of all the Bible verses you follow and those you don't. Shouldn't there only be one list?

5) Why do you think that people of reason don't believe in Christianity? We've read the Bible and have taken it at it's word. It's obvious that Christianity (and all other religions) are man-made.

6) I am the victim of the religious believers of Christianity. It's the Christians who make the outrageous claim there is something wrong with my humanity (based on ancestral sin). It's the Christians who are the bullies against the human race. People are reason are the victims. And bullies hate it when their victims fight back.

7) If I am blocked on this forum, this simply illustrates that faith IS a conversation stopper.

[Mike West]

Some might wonder why I've taken the time to respond this post. It's due to 911. Up to now, people have let believers have their say without opposition. However, now that weapons of mass destruction are available to many, science is taking a stand.

 

You don't have to take my word for it, you can find top scientists and intellectuals who are warning about the danger of religious belief to society.

 

“Our religious beliefs are ultimately incompatible with civilization. It seems to me to be absolutely obvious that there is no future, in which nuclear armed fundamentalist regimes will live side by side with one another and manage to keep the missiles happily in their silos indefinitely.” —Sam Harris, neuroscientist and author.

 

"Faith is an evil precisely because it requires no justification and brooks no argument. Teaching children that unquestioned faith is a virtue primes them—given certain other ingredients that are not hard to come by—to grow up into potentially lethal weapons for future jihads or crusades." —Richard Dawkins, Evolutionary biologist (Quote from The God Delusion)

"The most dangerous part of any religion is the surrender of the mind. Why would anyone want to discard the one thing which makes us important, useful and different from the other primates? The ability to reason." —Christopher Hitchens, writer and intellectual.

 

[aeroscout]

Mike, it's considered impolite to reply to your own posts on a forum. You should merge them. That would be proper etiquette.

Regarding Christopher Hitchens. Christopher was a well known lib, and atheist. But to tell the whole story Christopher was very outspoken on the dangers of islam. You seem to gloss over that.

Regarding your other references, you completely glossed over my Albert Einstein quote.

Remember, without a higher morality it's only might makes right. You can't imagine living in a society where there is no higher morality. You get the advantage of it without even being aware of it.

You should be thankful. But you're not.

[Counterrotate]

Actually, gravity is basic physics as can be calculated as a function of proximal distance between two objects of a given mass. It's really not that mysterious.

It can be calculated. Yes. It can be measured. Yes. The reason for that interaction has been theorized. Yes. But how it actually works, the ins and outs of it, are not completely understood. No. Gravity has kept itself relatively hidden from our understanding. We know it is there, we know how to measure it, we can predict its effects pretty accurately. But we still don't know how it works.

 

Why does mass attract mass? Einstein theorized it is the bending of space time. Newton postulated what you just said (which is the simpler of the two explanations). When you start getting into quantum mechanics, things start getting even more complex, as Einstein's general relativity does not mesh completely with quantum theory. We can see the effects, but when you get into the mechanics, it gets puzzling. And the math does not add up. Gravity does not work on a subatomic level like it does on a universal one, and we don't know why.

 

So basically, you are wrong. We somewhat understand how it affects everything around us, but we do not have a clue as to how or why it works. The two commonly accepted theories do not fit with each other, although they work perfectly fine on their own, and there are many alternate theories ranging from gravity being a resultant force of entropy, to gravity and space-time a result of a superfluid vacuum that fills the universe...

[Nearly Retired]

I just wish people would stop beating each other over the head with their kooky books. And yes, I include the Bible in the "kooky book" category. Can't we just throw books like it (and the Koran) away?

 

I did not intend for this thread to turn into the mess it has. This is not "Meet The Press with Marvin Kalb." I said what I had to say, and if people want to respond, fine, but nobody is required to post anything here, including me. So I've intentionally ignored any "challenges" people may have made. But I scanned quickly through the pages of this thread, looking for a specific one that a friend mentioned. Along the way, what a load of crap I've read! You atheists sure are an angry bunch! Are wadded-up panties a prerequisite for membership in your religion? Hey, "Mike West?" You need help, man. Seriously. Get thee to a therapist! And soon.

 

I started this thread with a simple premise: Those who cannot even conceive that there could be a Creator are very narrow-minded and limited in their thinking. I don't care if you actually believe in a Creator or not. It is the possibility that I'm concerned with. I know it sounds silly, but it's true: Absence of proof is not proof of absence. There are many, many things in this universe that cannot be scientifically proven. We take it on faith that they exist. Like love, for instance. Has anybody addressed that little deal?

 

When asked about faith, atheists automatically jump to the arguments against religion, as if faith and religion are inextricably intertwined. Guess what: They're not. You can believe in a Creator without being a member of any organized religion.

Yes, yes, I know that arguments over religion have been the cause of much strife over the history of our planet. This is why I reject the religion I was raised in (Crusades, anyone?). In fact, I reject *any* religion that is exclusionary and not inclusive. I reject *any* religion that endorses killing or violence, especially "...in the name of God."

 

I may reject the religion I was raised in, but I do not reject the Creator/God. Maybe some of you "big thinkers" can't wrap your brains around that. Which is too bad. I don't have to prove that God exists. He exists within me. And, if you cared to look deeply inside, you'd find that He exists within you too.

 

Go in peace and love, my friends.

[aeroscout]

I thought the force opposite gravity was dark energy, which is what's not only causing all the galaxies to move away from each other, but to actually cause the expanding universe to accelerate instead of slow down?

 

Plus I thought gravity was caused by objects warping the space around them?

Mass does definitely warp space. It bends light, and probably the rest of the electromagnetic spectrum. It is not known if it is the gravity component of mass that does this, or some other aspect of mass. The warping theory elegantly explains orbits and the mechanics of massive bodies in orbital motion. The warping theory doesn't explain isolated linear gravimetric attractions, at least how I understand it.

[Mike West]

Claiming to know to a god is claiming the impossible.

 

Christian think:

"I am a mortal and (thunder and lightning), I know an immortal being! All I have to do is believe and poof!! It's truth! And I demand you respect me for this and I demand immunity from criticism for making this outrageous claim! Because demanding this is the only way to get people from laughing at me."

 

Belief is not a virtue, reason is a virtue

No amount of belief makes something a fact. It's called faith because it's not knowledge. This is why we have words such as wishful thinking and self-delusion.

 

Why religious belief is nonsense

I'm a millionaire, I'm a millionaire! Does that make me a millionaire? I believe it in my heart to be true. I wouldn't want to live in an universe where I did not believe this was true. I gives me great comfort to believe that I'm a millionaire. You can have this same belief, all it takes is faith. Do you believe I'm a millionaire? No, you laugh at me, because no amount of belief makes something a fact.

 

Your original post is an attack on humanity and all non-theists on this forum

Your original post is still unfounded because is it not based on fact--like your faith. You claim you have distanced yourself from the Christians in the Dark Ages who burned people at the stake. But you haven't. You are not trying to burn "Atheist-Pilots" at the stake because you'd be put in jail. Secular law has surpassed Biblical law. You can't kill heretics in Western societies.

 

Christian hatred at it's finest

So, the very best alternative you could think of to fuel the Christian hatred to those human beings who have not joined your religious cult, is to find an alternative to "burning at the staking" by attacking non-theists on a forum. Again, the religious demand a one-way street. They can attack people's humanity, they can call non-theists "dangerous" carte blanche--with very little resistance.

 

Reality versus mythology

However, 911 changed all that. This is just the beginning. I posted several quotes from famous scientists and great thinkers, previously, and science IS fighting against this credulity and mythology from our ignorant ancient ancestors. Science, great thinkers and the rest of the human race is taking a stand. Religious belief is harmful to our society because it is a false representation of the world around us.

 

I am not attacking you, I am outing all religions as mythology and I am laughing at you

Any thinking person on this board can feel and see the Christian hatred of others (approved by your belief in a loving god?) towards non-theists because I am outing your religious belief as the mythology it is and because I am laughing at those who claim they have an invisible sky daddy.

[DieselBoy]

I did not intend for this thread to turn into the mess it has.

 

I started this thread with a simple premise: Those who cannot even conceive that there could be a Creator are very narrow-minded and limited in their thinking.

 

.

Edited November 19, 2013 by DieselBoy

[pilot#476398]

I started this thread with a simple premise: Those who cannot even conceive that there could be a Creator are very narrow-minded and limited in their thinking. I don't care if you actually believe in a Creator or not. It is the possibility that I'm concerned with. I know it sounds silly, but it's true

 

 

Are you open to the possibility that there is no creator?

[Wally]

 

A message to everyone concerned.

 

1) I did not bring up the topic "Atheist-Pilot: A Dangerous Combination!" And furthermore, I would have never posted a blog title, "Christian-Pilot: A Dangerous Combination!" Even though I could obviously argue the point for years!! Haha.

 

1a) I am responding on this forum (as I am in the helicopter industry) to rebut the absurd assertion "Atheist-Pilot: A Dangerous Combination!" that a blanket statement made like this has no credibility. And it is no surprise to me that believers (from extremely liberal to possibly fundamentalist) can't take the debate. This is how all Christians I've ever encountered react to debate and criticism.

 

2) Remember what Christians did to Galileo Galilei? The church wanted to put him to death (however, he had powerful friends so he was not killed) but he still had to live the rest of his life under house arrest. Why is that? Because he opposed religious belief. According to the Bible, the earth is still but Galileo said, "No, the Earth revolves around the sun." And the leaders of the church did not like this and wanted him killed. That's one of the reasons why it was called the Dark Ages, it was "a period of intellectual darkness" per Wikipedia.

 

Notes: Biblical references Psalm 93:1, 96:10, and 1 Chronicles 16:30 include text stating that "the world is firmly established, it cannot be moved." In the same manner, Psalm 104:5 says, "the Lord set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved." Further, Ecclesiastes 1:5 states that "And the sun rises and sets and returns to its place." -Wikipedia.

 

2a) In other words, Christians feel they have the right to criticize people who are not in their religious cult but oh, ho, ho... when someone stands up to the bullies of Christianity, watch out! Cries of wrong doing are shouted from the mountain tops! Christian think: "I can criticize your humanity but don't you dare criticize my religious belief! DO NOT TELL ME THAT I HAVE AN INVISIBLE FRIEND. I'm going to scream bloody murder!! How dare you make fun of my invisible friend."

 

2b) And this is a simply a forum. I have not hit anyone and I have not threatened anyone. (I wouldn't do either of these things because I am moral using scientific formulas and life-advice from great thinkers and I don't subscribe to the immoral teachings of the Bible.) I am simply laughing at all people who believe in an invisible sky daddy because in the Scientific Age, we laugh at credulity.

 

3) The truth is this, Christianity is a hate organization due to the erroneous doctrine of original sin. Sin is a man-made concept. Sin is a myth. People do good and bad things but there is no such thing as sin. Yet Christians want free rein to devalue anyone who has not joined their religious cult.

 

4) If the Bible was actually written by an all powerful being, there would be thousands of timeless morals and ethics which would apply to any culture, in any time period of human history which could never be misinterpreted or taken out of context or be used for evil. Yet, the moral instructions of the Bible simply don't stand the test of time as the Bible is filled with a plethora of outdated teachings and horrific immoral instructions.

 

4a) Proof of #4. Make a list of all the Bible verses you follow and those you don't. Shouldn't there only be one list?

5) Why do you think that people of reason don't believe in Christianity? We've read the Bible and have taken it at it's word. It's obvious that Christianity (and all other religions) are man-made.

6) I am the victim of the religious believers of Christianity. It's the Christians who make the outrageous claim there is something wrong with my humanity (based on ancestral sin). It's the Christians who are the bullies against the human race. People are reason are the victims. And bullies hate it when their victims fight back.

7) If I am blocked on this forum, this simply illustrates that faith IS a conversation stopper.

 

 

1a) I suggest you get out more.

 

6) How can original sin affect you if you're not a "believer"? "Step on a crack, break your mama's back"?

[DieselBoy]

 

Are you open to the possibility that there is no creator?

 

That would require him to have an Open mind lol

[Lindsey]

I'm pretty sure this is why the "lock thread" button exists.

[aeroscout]

I'm pretty sure this is why the "lock thread" button exists.

No, no. Not till everyone suffers equally !