Atheist-Pilot: A Dangerous Combination!

[WolftalonID]

I was going to comment then I decided not to..........oh crap did I just type that and hit post? Lol

[Whistlerpilot]

I for one have enjoyed listening to everyone debate these issues of belief, though I would not find it appropriate to have these conversations with an employer.

 

It takes an interesting turn when trying to reconcile quantum mechanics and general relativity theories with spiritual beliefs. We do not really know what gravity is, one of the most fundamental forces acting on us. I find it amusing when both scientists, atheists, or religious leaders claim absolute knowledge when clearly we are in the toddler stage of human consciousness and development. It would be nice if there was a universally accepted code of morals for human behaviour. I do believe that all the world religions do have essentially the same core message. Don't judge Islam for example by the crazy actions of terrorists, just as don't judge Christians by the actions of the crusades, or hellfire and damnation rhetoric. Like many helicopter pilots I consider myself a "scientist" interested in verifiable cause and effect. In no way does that conflict with my personal spiritual beliefs and practises. Religions are run by people, and people as we know usually have some sort of agenda.

 

Thanks for getting back to us Bob and clarifying your belief in a creator within you, everyone, and everything. I found I had mistaken you, and while I still don't understand your annoyance with Maria, I do relate to where you are coming from with your faith.

 

If you have a few minutes watch this interesting video Carl Sagan did with the Dalai Lama. The quality is poor so turn up the volumne. The spiritual leader of Tibetan Budhism on science, life after death, and the existence of God interviewed by one of the pre-eminent scientific thinkers of our era.

 

[apiaguy]

Just wanted to get my name on the historic thread (even if it's negative). I love religion. I dislike non believing pilots. I was born this way

[Nearly Retired]

Dieselboy:

 

You used the word "Hate" to describe how you feel about atheists many times...

 

Oh poor Dieselboy. Apparently your reading comprehension is poor. Perhaps your brain has run out of diesel fuel? I never said that I hate atheists - you are incorrectly inferring it. I don't hate atheists - believe it or not I don't even "hate" she-who-must-not-be-named - the great atheist beekeeper with the R-44 (which sources tell me she is even having done up in a bumblebee paint scheme this winter - oh that should look good drying cherries!).

 

No Dieselbuddy, I said that there were things I hate about atheists, and I stand by that. And I see no conflict with that viewpoint and my belief that there is a Creator/God. Or, do you believe that people of faith are therefore required to love everything about everybody? That's just silly. As my Christian friends would say, "Hate the sin; love the sinner."

 

Someone else asked if I was open to the possibility that there is *no* Creator/God? Well yes, of course! It's good to be skeptical. Even the reviled Catholic Church teaches us to question everything and not merely accept dogma on blind faith. There is always the possibility that a Creator does not exist, although I confess that it is my belief and faith that there *is* a Creator. It's that damn "faith" thing again...

 

Remember, an agnostic doesn't believe in God, but allows for the possibility that He exists. An atheist denies God - refuses to accept the possibility of God's existence.

 

That makes me the opposite of an agnostic - perhaps you could call me a gnostic. (Heh-heh, I crack myself up.) (I also like to speak parenthetically if you haven't noticed.)

 

What troubles me are people who define themselves as "atheist" but when you speak to them, they admit that yes, a Creator *could* exist. And then I go, "THAT MAKES YOU NOT AN ATHEIST!" But they don't get it. Okay, fine. If you want to insist on calling yourself an atheist for some reason, fine.

 

On the other hand, where religions go wrong is in trying to convince people that *their* God is the only God, and if you don't believe like they do then you can't be a member of their religion. Allllllrighty then! (My Mormon friends are particularly insistent of their beliefs, and the rest of us are going to hell. Whatever.) Religions go waaaay wrong when they try to tell you what "God wants"...as if anyone really knows. I may have a strong feeling that I know what God wants from *me*, but I'd never try to tell you what God wants from *you*.

 

It seems that many of the atheists I know are very, very angry with organized religion - specifically Christianity. And in their effort to turn completely away from Christianity they throw the baby (the Baby Jesus!) out with the bathwater. They not only reject religion but they also make the illogical leap to conclude that because religion is bad that also means there is no God. As if those two ideas go inseparably hand in hand.

 

This lunatic, Mike West is a classic example. He rails and rants and stomps his feet against Christianity (he may even be holding his breath until he turns blue for all I know - he seems *that* angry), even though Christianity has never been the issue throughout this interminable thread. I certainly don't demand that anyone reject atheism and convert to Christianity.

 

But again, we're getting off-topic. All's I'm saying is that you better be open-minded if you're going to be a pilot on my staff. Except you, Avbug - nobody wants anyone on their staff who knows and is an expert on EVERYTHING, as you apparently do. Nobody wants anyone on their staff who takes themself as seriously as you apparently do. Yes, yes, we all have to take the job seriously, but sista please! Do we have to take OURSELVES so seriously??

 

Those of you who know me personally - and there are many on this board who do, although you may not want to admit it - know that while I can (ahem) at times be a little pompous and (ahem!) at times be a bit of a dickhead, I don't take myself very seriously. I know I screw up a lot, and I know I don't have all the answers to everything (for that, I defer to Avbug). But I keep an open mind as much as I can, and I'm always trying to learn more.

 

Oh, and thank you, Whistlerpilot! Thank you for pointing out that science and spirituality do not have to be diametrically opposed and mutually exclusive. Science! once taught us that the world was flat and that the sun revolved around the earth, and life could grow out of a pile of garbage (maggots, etc.). So using Science! to make the definitive claim that God does not exist is just, as I've been saying all along, narrow-minded. Just as narrow-minded as someone who says that they know the one-and-only God *and* they know what He wants.

[terminal_velo]

Nearly Retired, again, you do not understand gnosticism, nor do you understand atheism.

 

Seeing as how your entire argument is based on a false premise, your entire wall of text is pointless.

 

Nobody takes you seriously, and that isn't going to change if you continue to reject information.

[Counterrotate]

Dieselboy:

 

 

Oh poor Dieselboy. Apparently your reading comprehension is poor. Perhaps your brain has run out of diesel fuel? I never said that I hate atheists - you are incorrectly inferring it. I don't hate atheists - believe it or not I don't even "hate" she-who-must-not-be-named - the great atheist beekeeper with the R-44 (which sources tell me she is even having done up in a bumblebee paint scheme this winter - oh that should look good drying cherries!).

 

No Dieselbuddy, I said that there were things I hate about atheists, and I stand by that. And I see no conflict with that viewpoint and my belief that there is a Creator/God. Or, do you believe that people of faith are therefore required to love everything about everybody? That's just silly. As my Christian friends would say, "Hate the sin; love the sinner."

 

Someone else asked if I was open to the possibility that there is *no* Creator/God? Well yes, of course! It's good to be skeptical. Even the reviled Catholic Church teaches us to question everything and not merely accept dogma on blind faith. There is always the possibility that a Creator does not exist, although I confess that it is my belief and faith that there *is* a Creator. It's that damn "faith" thing again...

 

Remember, an agnostic doesn't believe in God, but allows for the possibility that He exists. An atheist denies God - refuses to accept the possibility of God's existence.

 

That makes me the opposite of an agnostic - perhaps you could call me a gnostic. (Heh-heh, I crack myself up.) (I also like to speak parenthetically if you haven't noticed.)

 

What troubles me are people who define themselves as "atheist" but when you speak to them, they admit that yes, a Creator *could* exist. And then I go, "THAT MAKES YOU NOT AN ATHEIST!" But they don't get it. Okay, fine. If you want to insist on calling yourself an atheist for some reason, fine.

 

On the other hand, where religions go wrong is in trying to convince people that *their* God is the only God, and if you don't believe like they do then you can't be a member of their religion. Allllllrighty then! (My Mormon friends are particularly insistent of their beliefs, and the rest of us are going to hell. Whatever.) Religions go waaaay wrong when they try to tell you what "God wants"...as if anyone really knows. I may have a strong feeling that I know what God wants from *me*, but I'd never try to tell you what God wants from *you*.

 

It seems that many of the atheists I know are very, very angry with organized religion - specifically Christianity. And in their effort to turn completely away from Christianity they throw the baby (the Baby Jesus!) out with the bathwater. They not only reject religion but they also make the illogical leap to conclude that because religion is bad that also means there is no God. As if those two ideas go inseparably hand in hand.

 

This lunatic, Mike West is a classic example. He rails and rants and stomps his feet against Christianity (he may even be holding his breath until he turns blue for all I know - he seems *that* angry), even though Christianity has never been the issue throughout this interminable thread. I certainly don't demand that anyone reject atheism and convert to Christianity.

 

But again, we're getting off-topic. All's I'm saying is that you better be open-minded if you're going to be a pilot on my staff. Except you, Avbug - nobody wants anyone on their staff who knows and is an expert on EVERYTHING, as you apparently do. Nobody wants anyone on their staff who takes themself as seriously as you apparently do. Yes, yes, we all have to take the job seriously, but sista please! Do we have to take OURSELVES so seriously??

 

Those of you who know me personally - and there are many on this board who do, although you may not want to admit it - know that while I can (ahem) at times be a little pompous and (ahem!) at times be a bit of a dickhead, I don't take myself very seriously. I know I screw up a lot, and I know I don't have all the answers to everything (for that, I defer to Avbug). But I keep an open mind as much as I can, and I'm always trying to learn more.

 

Oh, and thank you, Whistlerpilot! Thank you for pointing out that science and spirituality do not have to be diametrically opposed and mutually exclusive. Science! once taught us that the world was flat and that the sun revolved around the earth, and life could grow out of a pile of garbage (maggots, etc.). So using Science! to make the definitive claim that God does not exist is just, as I've been saying all along, narrow-minded. Just as narrow-minded as someone who says that they know the one-and-only God *and* they know what He wants.

I find it humorous that you tell me I am agnostic because I concede there is a possibility I am wrong about there not being a creator, but you don't consider yourself agnostic even though you concede that you might be wrong about there being a creator. Agnostics are middle of the road. We are both on the fringes of our different sides. My concession that I might be wrong does not make me an agnostic any more than it makes you one.

[Wally]

It seems that many of the atheists I know are very, very angry with organized religion - specifically Christianity. And in their effort to turn completely away from Christianity they throw the baby (the Baby Jesus!) out with the bathwater. They not only reject religion but they also make the illogical leap to conclude that because religion is bad that also means there is no God. As if those two ideas go inseparably hand in hand.

 

The most devoted church-goers I know are unhappy with organized religion. I don't know that they'll be relieved to hear that they have to be atheists, who are apparently every bit as dogmatic and intolerant...

 

In a nutshell- If you feel a presence, you'll want to know. If you don't, you won't.

Edited October 20, 2013 by Wally

[DieselBoy]

Or, do you believe that people of faith are therefore required to love everything about everybody? That's just silly.

 

.

Edited November 19, 2013 by DieselBoy

[Nearly Retired]

CR:

 

I find it humorous that you tell me I am agnostic because I concede there is a possibility I am wrong about there not being a creator, but you don't consider yourself agnostic even though you concede that you might be wrong about there being a creator. Agnostics are middle of the road. We are both on the fringes of our different sides. My concession that I might be wrong does not make me an agnostic any more than it makes you one.

 

Yes CR, I too find it humorous that you want to bend the definitions to suit yourself.

 

The difference between me and an agnostic is that the agnostic doesn't believe there's a God but allows that one might exist (in other words, where you're at). I do believe in "God," even if I allow for the possibility that there isn't one. That doesn't even remotely make me agnostic. Why is this so hard to understand?

 

And that is the difference between science and faith. I don't *need* solid, incontrovertible scientific proof that God exists or does not. My faith tells me that He does. Could I be wrong? Sure! I hope and pray I'm not

[Nearly Retired]

Dieselbubba says:

 

I believe in RESPECTING everyone, no matter race, religion or sexuality and I will stand up for that!

 

Well, I'm happy that you respect other people, Dieselboy. But hey, that's a different subject. If you want to start a thread on respect, go right ahead. But please don't drag this thread off-topic. Please try to keep to the subject of whether it is too narrow-minded and limiting for pilots to not entertain the possibility of there being a Creator.

 

Thank you. And bless you.

 

P.S. Life is not a popularity contest.

[terminal_velo]

NR: Maybe you're just a visual learner. Let's see if this helps you at all.

 

It sounds like you're an agnostic theist. Well, I'm an agnostic atheist, so we definitely have some things in common.

 

You continue to rail against atheism, and I continue to try to correct your understanding. Why? Because it's not atheism you complaining about, it's gnosticism.

 

 

 

[Counterrotate]

Ok, so I guess I am an agnostic atheist. Does that make everyone happy?

[terminal_velo]

The important thing is does it make you happy.

[aeroscout]

Ok, so I guess I am an agnostic atheist. Does that make everyone happy?

Can you throw any good luck charms into the deal ?

[Counterrotate]

Happier than Gallagher at a farmer's market.

[Nearly Retired]

CR:

 

Ok, so I guess I am an agnostic atheist.

 

Glad you finally admitted it

 

But again, the point...which TV seems incapable of understanding...is what we call ourselves. If you hold your hand up in the air, index finger extended and claim to the world, "I'M AN ATHEIST AND I BELIEVE THAT THERE IS NO GOD!" I'm gonna keep my distance from you. Because wherever you fit on TV's little chart there, you're telling the world that your thinking is limited. And the world really doesn't care enough to ask about the specifics and/or nuances of your belief system. The world will look at you as a narrow-minded kook.

 

That is all.

[terminal_velo]

But again, the point...which TV seems incapable of understanding...is what we call ourselves.

 

But you're incorrect in your point. Many people, even most agnostics, can call themselves atheists. What YOU call them is flawed.

 

I can't say that I know for sure why you're so intent on attacking "atheists", but my guess is it has something to do with a red helicopter. You can't really attack atheists, because many atheists hold a worldview that's much more rational than yours, so you continue to build a strawman argument.

 

In other words, you can't attack "atheism" on merit, so you attack it on a fallacy.

 

(I made 'strawman' a link, so you can go read about what that means.)

 

 

If you hold your hand up in the air, index finger extended and claim to the world, "I'M AN ATHEIST AND I BELIEVE THAT THERE IS NO GOD!" I'm gonna keep my distance from you. Because wherever you fit on TV's little chart there, you're telling the world that your thinking is limited.

 

Without the "can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit" wall of text, can you explain how "I believe there is a god" is superior to "I believe there is no god"?

[Counterrotate]

I think Bob is pretty content with someone who says: "I don't believe in God, but I acknowledge there is a possibility that I could be wrong."

 

I agree that anyone who absolutely rules out a creator, or creative force, with absolute iron fisted certainty is no better than the most die-hard religious fanatic. Those atheists that cling to certainty that there is no creator, and claim to revere science instead, really have no place in the scientific community. They already have too much bias! Bias, in the world of true science, is a bad thing. Bias taints evidence. Bias incorrectly influences interpretations of data. Therefore, anyone with that kind of bias, cannot claim to be a true believer in science or the empirical process.

 

One of the great astrophysicists of our time replying to a question that could easily have been answered simply "No."

 

[avbug]

My Mormon friends are particularly insistent of their beliefs, and the rest of us are going to hell. Whatever.

 

That's actually the exactly opposite of mormon doctrine, but you've never bothered with what's correct. Just what you think is, so...whatever.

 

Why stick to facts when creativity is your bag?

[terminal_velo]

Great post, CR.

 

I think Bob is pretty content with someone who says: "I don't believe in God, but I acknowledge there is a possibility that I could be wrong."

 

Maybe so, but he's attacking that person when he attacks atheism.

 

I agree that anyone who absolutely rules out a creator, or creative force, with absolute iron fisted certainty is no better than the most die-hard religious fanatic.

 

I would agree. I will say it this way: I agree that it is unjustified to assert that a supernatural/higher being is impossible.

 

The way that he misrepresents atheism to attack it (strawman argument) really makes it seem like his bigotry is the cause and his argument is the result, rather than his argument being the cause and his bigotry the result.

 

All I want from NR is:

• fairness (attack the specific position that bothers him, instead of an entire group of people of which many don't hold that position)
• intellectual honesty (stop dismissing valid counter-points)
• participation (stop being a megaphone, and listen to others so that we can work towards either agreement or better informed disagreement)

[Dragbrace]

Can we go back to flying helicopters, keeping it safe, and mentoring our young people that this is a serious industry that requires our undivided attention regardless of our personal beliefs ?

Edited October 20, 2013 by Dragbrace

[DieselBoy]

Well, I'm happy that you respect other people, Dieselboy. But hey, that's a different subject. If you want to start a thread on respect, go right ahead. But please don't drag this thread off-topic.

 

You're a disgrace. The topic of this thread that YOU started is how YOU believe atheist's are dangerous pilots. That's a bad approach for a complement since you're not "disrespecting" anyone. Pilots love to hear how dangerous they are!

 

Passing judgment of people without personally knowing them is a prime trait of being closed minded, but I couldn't possibly expect you to comprehend that. I'm finished with this thread...

[troll.detector]

Believe what you like, or nothing at all, just respect others (and their beliefs), be a good person and a safe, responsible pilot.

 

Easy.

[Flying Pig]

You know what this reminds me of? A "conversation" I listened to once between a US Marine and a British Royal Marine arguing about which "Marines" were better. I guess the only way to prove it is if we ever go to war with them, again. Nobody is ever going to "prove" God exists or doesn't exist until you close your eyes and take your final breath. It's something you'll just have to decide on your own until then.

 

Although the British Marine was passionate with his points, he was clearly wrong........ But that's not the point HAAAAA!!!!

[aeroscout]

This thread just keeps on giving.