Military to CFI/CFII Transition

wbrady755 · February 17, 2014

New to the website, forgive me for any redundancies:

Ive always wanted to fly, blah blah blah.

I got my commercial helicopter and instrument rating through the US Army, where I currently have about 350 hours, with another 200 to come on a deployment. Looking at PC, with about 50% goggle time, a lot of IFR flights, slings, etc. Through the VA, they are paying a good chunk of my flight fees for my CFI/CFII. It sounded like a great idea until I heard...

...You need 150 hours in a 300 to become an instructor (which seems like my route to building civilian time).

So it looks like even though I have more hours, with real-world experience than the kids coming out of these schools, I would still have to shell out $40,000-50,000 just to get an instructor position.

Having talked to the other guys who came through the flight school, I will not get any pity, as they are in the hole 100k just from getting the earlier certificates, but I am at a bit of a crossroads about where I want to go from here.

Does anyone have any tips on how I can deal with insurance companies, etc? Or should I just try to set up photo flights, tours, etc until I can get the 150 hours in the Schweizer?

Velocity173 · February 23, 2014

What are you going to do with a CFI? You're in the Army making way more than a CFI makes. CFI isn't going to matter when it comes to getting a job when you get out either.

I was an IP and never did the CFI conversion. Not a single pilot I work with in EMS has a CFI. You get your CFI if you want to do some sort of instructing when you get out. Personally, I'd stay in the Army than take a CFI job.

Joe_P148 · February 23, 2014

Yeah dude, your looking way too into CFI and CFII. We had LTs fresh out of flight school who were CFIs show up to the unit who froze up trying to make radio calls. CFI is purchased IMHO, IP in the army is earned.

apiaguy · February 23, 2014

NO! You don't need 150 hrs in the 300!

You already have the total time to take the cfi or cfii... You need only become proficient in the aircraft you are going to take the check rides in before taking the tests.

Expect 20-40 hours depending on ability. $7-13k

Joe_P148 · February 24, 2014

NO! You don't need 150 hrs in the 300!
You already have the total time to take the cfi or cfii... You need only become proficient in the aircraft you are going to take the check rides in before taking the tests.
Expect 20-40 hours depending on ability. $7-13k

My point exactly.

d10 · February 24, 2014

What are you going to do with a CFI? You're in the Army making way more than a CFI makes. CFI isn't going to matter when it comes to getting a job when you get out either.

I was an IP and never did the CFI conversion. Not a single pilot I work with in EMS has a CFI. You get your CFI if you want to do some sort of instructing when you get out. Personally, I'd stay in the Army than take a CFI job.

If he's getting out of the Army with 500 hours finding work as a CFI is probably the only flying job he'll have a chance at.

Sorry OP but you won't get any sympathy from me either. You can look down on freshly minted civilian CFIs all you want but I'd rather get flight instruction from a 200 hour pilot who's earned it all flying the helicopter he's instructing in with the goal of instructing all along than your 500 hours of "real world" experience.

apiaguy · February 24, 2014

Umm., let me get this... Your point was what? That cfii you just pay for and is junk compared to the special patch, pin and flaming eagle tat that comes with the IP designation that Uncle Sam pays for.

My words were an answer to his confusion. You have to pass the FAA check rides in a civilian helicopter... As soon as you can show competency in that aircraft and pass the writtens....(based on your experience level so far) you should be able to pass the rides... This says nothing as to your effectiveness as a pilot or instructor (which is what I think joe was intending to slam)

Regardless. Good lunch if you wish to persue it.

pilot#476398 · February 24, 2014

If he's getting out of the Army with 500 hours finding work as a CFI is probably the only flying job he'll have a chance at.

Sorry OP but you won't get any sympathy from me either. You can look down on freshly minted civilian CFIs all you want but I'd rather get flight instruction from a 200 hour pilot who's earned it all flying the helicopter he's instructing in with the goal of instructing all along than your 500 hours of "real world" experience.

I flown with some 200 hour CFIs,...I'll take the guy with 500 real world hours who only has 20 in the 300!,...or better yet 50 in an R22, don't really care for the 300!

Velocity173 · February 24, 2014

Hey I'm not criticizing the quality of CFIs and trying to compare them to being an IP. I was simply wondering why the OP would be seeking on getting a CFI rating unless that's something he plans on pursuing after the Army.

As far as getting out at 500 hrs, my advice would simply be not to get out. Definitely wouldn't get out with anything less than 1,500 hrs if you want to fly for a living. If you want to do get out and do the CFI thing making a third of what you do now, be my guest. I had several students at Rucker who were former CFIs that got tired of living off of food stamps.

Also I didn't know too many guys in the Army who instructed in their spare time to build hours. Working Mon-Fri in the Army and then using your only time off to instruct on the weekends gets old real fast.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Velocity173

Hotdogs · February 24, 2014

How does one get out with only 500 hrs? Seems pretty low time for a 6 year commitment.

Joe_P148 · February 24, 2014

Any of you IPs get a flaming eagle patch and special pin when you passed the IP course?

To the OP, I wouldn't get out if you have the chance. Are you a PC? Are you O or WO?

I see why you want to do the CFI route to build hours I'd again try to build hours through the Army before getting out. Have you thought about the NG to continue flying? If you are a O have you though about going warrant?

Velocity173 · February 24, 2014

How does one get out with only 500 hrs? Seems pretty low time for a 6 year commitment.

It's not entirely impossible for commissioned officers. I'd say most get out with 700-800 hrs after their initial obligation. I had a few MAJs on our ATP that only had around 500 hrs. Had one LTC well below 500 hrs TT...getting flight pay too. They all spent the majority of their careers in either staff positions or non operational assignments.

Now warrants, very few are getting out with less than 1,000 hrs after 6 yrs.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Velocity173

Joe_P148 · February 24, 2014

Umm., let me get this... Your point was what? That cfii you just pay for and is junk compared to the special patch, pin and flaming eagle tat that comes with the IP designation that Uncle Sam pays for.
My words were an answer to his confusion. You have to pass the FAA check rides in a civilian helicopter... As soon as you can show competency in that aircraft and pass the writtens....(based on your experience level so far) you should be able to pass the rides... This says nothing as to your effectiveness as a pilot or instructor (which is what I think joe was intending to slam)
Regardless. Good lunch if you wish to persue it.

Intending to slam? No it's a full on slam brother. The Army doesn't do a lot of things right but at least thier instructors have to be selected by thier command to go to a course that is standardized in one location. Does a CFI get standardization? Are they required to even instruct after they get thier CFI? Not really... I don't have a lot of faith in the CFI program as it seems to me anyone with the money has the ability to buy ther certification, and the CFIs that I have seen have been absolute sh*t. The difference is quality control or the lack thereof. Sure there are bad IPs in the Army but there's a lot more CFIs then Army IPs out there and these schools are just pumping out cookie cutter traffic pattern veteran CFIs.

pilot#476398 · February 24, 2014

Our CFIs may come out of a cookie cutter, but at least they know how to spell "their"!

CharyouTree · February 24, 2014

Our CFIs may come out of a cookie cutter, but at least they know how to spell "their"!

I would have thought we'd be past the point of completely disregarding someone's point, and being kind of rude over a simple typo. Aside from it making you look a bit immature, it adds nothing. But, at least it's only the Internet.

pilot#476398 · February 24, 2014

Damn, and I even used the lol emotocon! Some people just have no sense of humor I guess?

CharyouTree · February 24, 2014

Damn, and I even used the lol emotocon! Some people just have no sense of humor I guess?

I'd go with the winky face in the future.

Pohi · February 24, 2014

Yeay!!!! It's been a while since I've seen the classic military vs civilian pilot topic being beat to death.

Very refreshing.

.... And here I thought I'd have to go to the other forums.

Joe_P148 · February 24, 2014

I would have thought we'd be past the point of completely disregarding someone's point, and being kind of rude over a simple typo. Aside from it making you look a bit immature, it adds nothing. But, at least it's only the Internet.

Shame on me for fat fingering my I phone keyboard.

Wally · February 24, 2014

Shame on me for fat fingering my I phone keyboard.

Here is pistol. Save me the paperwork, comrade.

adam32 · February 24, 2014

There's much more to being a civilian CFI then just shaking the sticks and teaching radio calls...how many Military pilots are proficient with the FAR/AIM when they get out with their 500 hours of "real world flying"? Anyone can pass the flight portion of a checkride, its the ground that having a good CFI will pay off. Maybe get an ex warrant to teach some advanced maneuvers and a Civi to teach the rules and regs...

Flying Pig · February 24, 2014

I will add this to second what Velocity says, If at all possible given your circumstances.... Get your 1500 before you get out. You'll be pretty hard pressed to find employment short of that. I wrote a post here somewere outlining why based on personal experience.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Flying Pig

Velocity173 · February 24, 2014

There's much more to being a civilian CFI then just shaking the sticks and teaching radio calls...how many Military pilots are proficient with the FAR/AIM when they get out with their 500 hours of "real world flying"? Anyone can pass the flight portion of a checkride, its the ground that having a good CFI will pay off. Maybe get an ex warrant to teach some advanced maneuvers and a Civi to teach the rules and regs...

They better be proficient at FAR/AIM when they get out. Military pilots are bound by the FARs just as civilian pilots. Generally AR95-1, ATM and SOPs overrule most FAR stuff, but that still doesn't absolve them from not knowing that information. The FARs and AIM are both listed as references for evals & training in the UH-60 ATM so they're both fair game. Don't know of a stands shop that doesn't have a FAR/AIM sitting in their library.

Generally military pilots aren't familiar with Part 135 stuff but that doesn't matter. Most companies give you a Part 135 open book test (amoung others) after getting hired anyway. For a former Army aviator, a Part 135 check ride will probably seem much easier than the stands / IFR rides that they're used to.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Velocity173

d10 · February 24, 2014

They better be proficient at FAR/AIM when they get out. Military pilots are bound by the FARs just as civilian pilots. Generally AR95-1, ATM and SOPs overrule most FAR stuff, but that still doesn't absolve them from not knowing that information. The FARs and AIM are both listed as references for evals & training in the UH-60 ATM so they're both fair game. Don't know of a stands shop that doesn't have a FAR/AIM sitting in their library.

Generally military pilots aren't familiar with Part 135 stuff but that doesn't matter. Most companies give you a Part 135 open book test (amoung others) after getting hired anyway. For a former Army aviator, a Part 135 check ride will probably seem much easier than the stands / IFR rides that they're used to.

That's not really a realistic expectation for most of the 500 hour Army pilots I know. It's not really their fault, national airspace stuff just isn't stressed enough for new pilots to get into the FARs. Ask any senior Army pilot to plan a cross country flight and watch them do it all VFR and avoid any airspace with a control tower.

Velocity173 · February 24, 2014

That's not really a realistic expectation for most of the 500 hour Army pilots I know. It's not really their fault, national airspace stuff just isn't stressed enough for new pilots to get into the FARs. Ask any senior Army pilot to plan a cross country flight and watch them do it all VFR and avoid any airspace with a control tower.

Well that's a failure in the company's training program then. They aren't complying with the requirements of 5-2 D (1) of 95-1 if they're filing VFR every time. Of course you can always come up with exceptions to get around the IFR requirement though.

As an SP I made my guys always have an IFR leg on their continuation flights. I also required them to do AOPA's online classes emphasizing airspace, airport markings and GPS ops. No excuse not to know the NAS side of the house.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Velocity173