Pilot Time

[Flying Pig]

I broke into an S92 and logged a type rating.

[Pohi]

I broke into an S92 and logged a type rating.

I'm gonna log you talking about logging it

[Flying Pig]

You'd have to log it as SIC

[Pohi]

You'd have to log it as SIC

Done!

[Pohi]

Since I have no reference to the horizon, it's also gonna be IFR

[Flying Pig]

Night IFR on NVGs if you are man enough.

[Pohi]

Inverted with a sling load?

[aeroscout]

Inverted with a sling load?

Around the world, just like a yoyo...

 

 

[JohnLeePettimore]

I'm going to log that video as long line time because it mentions a yo yo.

[zippiesdrainage]

Park your R44 on the ice and when you crank the engine on make sure you have full right pedal and you can log it by the FAA regulations "moves under its own power" immediately.

[aeroscout]

Park your R44 on the ice and when you crank the engine on make sure you have full right pedal and you can log it by the FAA regulations "moves under its own power" immediately.

That's actually not far from the strategy I was referring to.

[heliflyknow]

I'm new to the flying world, but I always thought in a 44 collective time was for maintenance (load on the engine) and Hobbs time was for billing/flight time since you are in control of the aircraft. Similar to a car, oil changes based on miles driven, and the laws being you are considered in control of the vehicle anytime the engine is running.

[aussiecop]

Does anyone have any more popcorn? I was out at the start of page 2...

[adam32]

Does anyone have any more popcorn? I was out at the start of page 2...

 

I switched to whiskey when I read the title...

[Nearly Retired]

Heliflyknow, the rules are very clear: For (skid equipped) helicopters, "flight time" starts when the aircraft leaves the ground. This flight time is what we use to calculate the amount of time accrued on our life-limited parts. Helicopters have parts on them that *must* be retired and thrown away at certain intervals; airplanes generally do not (even the overhaul of an airplane engine is not mandatory by regulation). So in helicopters it is more important to keep close, accurate track of "flight time."

 

In flight school airplanes there have typically been *two* hour meters. The one in the tach keeps track of engine time, which is how operators know when to do 100-hour inspections and such. The tach in an airplane *generally* is only accurate at full rpm (i.e. not at idle on the ground), and so "flight time" is fairly well accounted for by the tach. For all intents and purposes, "tach time" is analogous to "flight time."

 

The stand-alone "Hobbsmeter" records more...usually a tenth or two more on a typical airplane flight. Because airplane pilots are allowed to log "pilot flight time" differently than helicopter pilots, the Hobbsmeter is the one f/w pilots use for their logbooks. It is, not coincidentally, the one flight schools use for billing YOU. (If flight schools used the Hobbs for doing maintenance, they'd be pulling 100-hour inspections roughtly ten hours or so too early - because as I said the Hobbs generally records more per hour than the recorder in the tach.)

 

Back in the day, many training helicopters (Bell 47's and such) didn't even have any recording devices - none are required. The pilots simply kept track of their "flight time" in one way or other. It was very imprecise. Along the way, hourmeters began appearing on helicopters - but they were usually hooked to the collective and recorded "aircraft flight time" for the components. And they were often located in areas that were not plainly visible to the pilot or passengers. But helicopter flight schools decided to add a *second* Hobbsmeter, similar to the ones airplanes have, located in the cockpit so they could bill students *more* time than the helicopter was actually accumulating on the components.

 

Some helicopters were certified with *only* an engine-hobbs, which means that the components accrue "flight time" faster than they normally would if the pilots just logged "skids-off to skids-on" time.

 

But just because the flight school bills you for the time doesn't mean you get to put it in your FAA logbook. Pilots cannot *technically* log the time from the "engine Hobbs," since the FAA defines "pilot flight time" for helicopter pilots the same way they do for the helicopter itself: That time during which the skids are off the ground, NOT the time spent idling before and after each flight period. Ergo, if a flight school is billing you 1.2 based on an engine-driven Hobbsmeter, but the helicopter only flew a 1.0 skids-off to skids-on, you the pilot can only officially log the 1.0. Technically.

 

Confusing? Probably. Does this make sense? Probably not. Certainly not to me - I disagree with the way the FAA says that we helicopter pilots log time. But I'm not king, so I do it the FAA way.

[Velocity173]

It only becomes confusing when people log their flight time based on a tach or hobbs instead of the Part 1 definition. Do people do it? Yep. Do I really care? Nope. They're getting a .1 here and there. I feel sorry for them if they need that for a job.

 

Look at it this way. In the Army, probably other services as well, we never had a hobbs. Flight time is all done based on the definition in the regs. That means airborne. Common phrase you'll hear Army folks say is "off at ...". That's because they're noting the of time on a clock.

[rotormandan]

Maybe getting a rating at minimums would be more common if schools billed skids up time.

[Astro]

Is there any difference between PIC time and flight time?

[iChris]

Is there any difference between PIC time and flight time?

Take a look at both terms in 14 CFR §1.1 and let us know.

 

Also see:

Legal Interpretations & Chief Counsel's Opinions to Barry Lloyd; April 27, 2007

 

Is there a difference?

Edited May 8, 2014 by iChris

[Astro]

I don't know, just thought I'd try to keep things going. Anyway only employers care about PIC time. That's why we need 1000hrs PIC time (not 1000hrs total flight time) to qualify for a "livable wage" job.

 

Just for shits and giggles it took roughly 60hrs for me to get my ppc. With only 10 of that PIC I'll need 1050hrs total flight time to get to 1000 PIC. I fly an r22 which has an engine hobbs. If I were to subtract a .1 from each flight that's a 1.4 from each page in my book. At my weight I can generally only take a 1.5s worth of fuel dual, so my average flight is probably around 1.3. Multiply that by the 14 entries per page and you get 18.2hrs. With that average it would take me 58 pages to get to just over 1050 total flight hours and 1000 PIC. Subtract a 1.4 from each page to account for difference between the engine hobbs and skids up to skids down and that's a total of 81.2hrs! So now my 1000 PIC is down to about 919 PIC.

 

Say it takes 2 years to get the remaining 850hrs needed to go from 200 to 1050. That's about 35hrs per month. So about another two and a half months living off peanuts.

 

I guess it ain't that big a deal?

[Whistlerpilot]

When the rotors are turning (with the intention of flight) and you are the person responsible and at the controls no one can logically argue that you are NOT the PIC. However flight time is what the FAA bases the regs on and employers/insurers look for. IMO you could justifiably keep a PIC (rotors turning) and Flight Time (skids up) column but they would slowly diverge and only the Flight Time would be legally recognized in the US. It would be hard to explain why you have more PIC time than Flight Time. You can log whatever you want, make as many columns as you like. ICAO PIC time could be one, but FAA flight time would have to be another to satisfy the FAA.

 

The ICAO definition of flight time for helicopters is different than the FAA:

 

Annex 1, Chapter 1, of the Convention on International Civil Aviation sets out separate "flight time" definitions for aeroplanes and helicopters. For helicopters, "flight time" is "The total time from the moment a helicopter's rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped.

 

Here are a few more references which succinctly outline the FAA regulations:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot_in_command

 

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/sdl/local_more/avsafety_program/media/LOGGING%20PILOT-IN-COMMAND%20TIME.pdf

[Whistlerpilot]

And Astro I feel your pain. Expand your calculations forward a few more years and it might mean 6 months to a year longer before you get whatever coveted job you want. There is an inherent incentive to log hard for the first couple of grand. I'm guessing most low timers use the oil pressure hobbs (ICAO definition).

 

Interestingly again in Canada only one person at a time can log PIC. That's another reason why the flight instructing and time building industry is so different.

 

When I did my OAS checkride the ground portion involved hours going through my log books. It was determined that I had 10 hours less PIC than I had recorded. I was bearing down on 2000 hours at the time and it was a painstaking exercise, he was very thorough and if I had fudged the books it would have come out under that scrutiny.

[Astro]

 

Interestingly again in Canada only one person at a time can log PIC. That's another reason why the flight instructing and time building industry is so different.

 

.

So if a CFI is instructing a rated pilot and the "student" is sole manipulator of the controls, who gets to log it as PIC?

[Astro]

Take a look at both terms in 14 CFR §1.1 and let us know.

 

Also see:

Legal Interpretations & Chief Counsel's Opinions to Barry Lloyd; April 27, 2007

 

Is there a difference?

Now that I'm thinking about it. If a cfi can log PIC time even if he doesn't touch the controls at all during the flight is that really "flight time"? I'm mean he has the authority yes, but if he's not actually flying the aircraft how can that be considered "flight time"? So maybe there is a difference?

 

It just seems like PIC time is more about authority, responsibility, and safety, while flight time is more about skids up to skids down sole manipulater of the controls?

[Whistlerpilot]

So if a CFI is instructing a rated pilot and the "student" is sole manipulator of the controls, who gets to log it as PIC?

 

The student logs dual received, the flight instructor logs dual given and PIC because in the TC system you don't have a license until the checkride at the end of the 100 hour commercial course. There is almost no flight instruction given to rated pilots, but each would log dual given or dual received, but only one can log as PIC.

 

The US system is pretty weird when you think about it. All this squabbling about .1 here and there but folks hit the industry with at least a thousand hours not actually flying the helicopter but logged as PIC. Don't get me wrong, flight instructing is a huge responsibility and I think the PIC logged is worthy, but actual hands and feet skills are going to the student.

 

Just a different system. In Canada a 1000 hour pilot is pretty seasoned and has operational experience and jobs open up. Seems in the US many jobs want 2000 hours, ie someone who's done the CFI thing and had operational experience.

 

The US system has way more oppotunities to break into the business.