Helipad in a residential neighborhood?

[Jennie]

Hobie. Yep I agree. Years ago my dad got thrown from a horse. He was pretty badly hurt and we lived a ways from town.  He was going into shock. Ambulance couldn't get there in time so a heli came and landed in the horse pasture (!) and whisked him away to hospital. Saved him.
I have utmost respect for those piloting these helis. I hope it all works out. I appreciate your advice.  Thank you! 

[Hobie]

  .

[helonorth]

17 hours ago, Eric Hunt said:

Different country and different times, I know, but in the 90s I was sometimes asked to fly a JetRanger to a house, right on Sydney Harbour and surrounded by multi-squillion dollar properties. His landing area was a tiny pier, on which he had a dolly on rails which then took the chopper into the hangar under his house.

It was tight, and when I brought a LongRanger there, it barely fitted onto it, the rotor clearance was minimal. The neighbours never said a thing. But the pad was on a "grandfather clause", and when he sold the chopper, the permit to use the pad was revoked.

Since then, though, the anti-helicopter brigade (one particular political party) has killed any chance of helicopters landing anywhere other than the airports.

 

Yeah, I remember the one time I flew a 92 over to my buddy Leroy's house. It blew down a couple trees and most all the shingles off the neighbors roof, as clearance was minimal. They never said a thing but he commies on the town council banned me and the chopper, which I guess was probably fair.

[Jennie]

1 hour ago, helonorth said:

Yeah, I remember the one time I flew a 92 over to my buddy Leroy's house. It blew down a couple trees and most all the shingles off the neighbors roof, as clearance was minimal. They never said a thing but he commies on the town council banned me and the chopper, which I guess was probably fair.

Helonorth- you made me laugh!  Thanks for the story!  😂

[RisePilot]

Please note your neighbour will most probably be flying something akin to a Robinson R44 w/ maximum take-off weight (MTOW) of 2,500 lbs.  The Sikorsky S92 mentioned in the above anecdotal story has a MTOW of 27,700 lbs - so not comparable at all regarding downwash or noise.

[Jennie]

RisePilot- good to know. Thank you. 

[helonorth]

6 hours ago, RisePilot said:

Please note your neighbour will most probably be flying something akin to a Robinson R44 w/ maximum take-off weight (MTOW) of 2,500 lbs.  The Sikorsky S92 mentioned in the above anecdotal story has a MTOW of 27,700 lbs - so not comparable at all regarding downwash or noise.

I don't think anecdotal means what you think it means. I have to confess, it never happened.

Edited February 3, 2020 by helonorth

[RisePilot]

20 hours ago, helonorth said:

I don't think anecdotal means what you think it means. I have to confess, it never happened.

I think the Dictionary disagrees with you:

anecdotal

adjective

(of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.

 

[helonorth]

noun

 

1. a short amusing or interesting story about a real incident or person.

    

   But hey, you're probably right. You did a good of mansplaining, too.

[Nearly Retired]

On 1/30/2020 at 1:57 PM, Jennie said:

What do you think about the safety and appropriateness of a helicopter/ pad being located in the middle of a residential neighborhood 50’ from lake and neighbors. There is an airstrip 3 miles away and an airport 15 min away. Small, quiet, lake town with no current helicopter ordinance. 

Well, as usual Helonorth adds nothing constructive to the conversation.  Thanks for that! (And by the way, dummy, RisePilot used "anecdotal" correctly as an adjective.  An anecdote would be the noun.  Sheesh.)

Jennie, it sounds like we're coming in to the middle of this situation.  Sounds like this helicopter guy has already made his plans known to neighbors and the City Council.  Sounds like he's already even landed his helicopter on his property.  It also sounds like you're pretty much against it.

Anti-aviation people generally bring up arguments like, "beach erosion!" (what?) or "noxious fumes!" and the ever-popular, "think of the children!"...anything to bolster their case that what they're objecting to is a damaging, possibly earth-ending activity WHICH MUST BE STOPPED!

But look- bottom line is that if there are no local ordinances against landing a helicopter on one's private property (as you admit), then he can legally do it.  You'll just have to deal with those annoying "noxious fumes."  Get enough NIMBY townsfolk riled-up with pitchforks and torches in hand, and you can probably get the City Council or County Commission to dream up some anti-helicopter law to put him out of operation.  Because that's what people do when other people want to do something that pisses the first group of people off.

The FAA has rules that all pilots must go by.  Those rules state that we cannot endanger anyone in the air or on the ground.  If you feel that what this pilot is doing endangers said people on the ground, then make a complaint to said FAA.  Maybe, if they're interested enough, they'll come out and take a look.  But they might not.  Perhaps you could supply some video of the helicopter scattering floaties, canoes, trays of Rum Punches, and beach chairs on adjacent neighbors' docks, oh and blowing small children into the water, etc. 

Or....if it's just that you think that what he plans to do might endanger or impact some vague "quality of lake life" issues in the future...well...good luck with that.  You don't own his property, you don't own the lake, and you don't own the airspace above the lake.  Sorry.  This is America, toots!

I suspect that this fellow won't be coming and going from his lakefront helipad all that often.  I suspect that it won't even be year-round.  I suspect that you've all already decided that This Is Bad, and you've taken it upon yourselves to stop him.  I suspect that y'all are making a bigger deal out of this than it really is.  But as someone else said, without seeing the location, we can't really make any kind of judgment as to whether it's "appropriate" or "safe."  So if you're looking for some support from us for you and against this pilot, I believe you came to the wrong place.  

And seriously, "noxious fumes?"  Oh please.

[helonorth]

Yes, she probably did come to the wrong place, but I'm a helicopter pilot and I feel helicopters, in congested areas, belong at airports, not in backyards. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should do it. Helicopters are REALLY LOUD. Too loud. You live on a lake because you enjoy a nice view and (hopefully) peace and quiet. Why should one person's desire for convenience by operating a helicopter in a residential area trump everybody else's right to some peace and quiet? Even occasionally, to me, is too often. Land the helicopter at the airport and take the luxury SUV back and forth to the lake place, just like the rest of the peasants. Land it once a year on the 4th and give some rides and get it the hell back to the airport.

 I must admit I hate all unnecessarily loud things: airboats, Harleys (I didn't say motorcycles because Harley owners seem to be the only ones that strive for deafness for themselves and everyone around them) personal watercraft, large caliber guns, ATVs, and all the other noisy crap many red-blooded Americans hold near and dear.

I would fight it. You will probably win. Local governments don't generally side with the rich guy that wants a helicopter in his yard because NOBODY wants to live near a guy with a helicopter in his yard. 

There is a reason helicopters are very rarely operated out of residential areas: it pisses everybody off. Eventually the neighbors put a stop to it, one way or another. Most private helicopter operators have enough common sense and courtesy to not subject their neighbors to it.

I fly neighborly as much as possible. Operating in residential areas is not flying neighborly. And sorry for getting my nouns and adjectives confused but c'mon, did anybody think I was serious or did Miss Jennie need to be told a 92 (with it's MTOW OF 27,000 seven hundred pounds) probably wouldn't be landing next door?

Edited February 5, 2020 by helonorth

[Eric Hunt]

Six years ago, a helicopter flying school was operating from the local airport 8nm from here, and the choppers had to transit the controlled airspace to get to the training areas to the north, 15nm away. They transit at 1500' usually, sometimes on an IFR departure at 3300', sometimes directly over the suburbs (as the departure dictates) or mostly around the majority of houses, but sometimes ATC sent them over the houses.

But the NIMBYs decided that the noise was too much. They bleated and moaned to the council and to the local airport management and eventually the local council politicians, wanting to be seen to be doing something, changed the rules at the airport, and the school pretty much got shut down.

6 years later, along comes the Bushfire Season From Hell. The suburbs under the flight paths are burning. What is the only thing to save them? Helicopter water bombers. And save them, they did. Fires in their backyards, the bombers are overhead at 100' dousing the flames. And not just little choppers, they varied from the AS350 spotters, to B427 with a bucket, B205, B214, B214ST, Dauphin, BK117, and the occasional Boeing 737 Serious Water Bomber.

And not one complaint. In fact, it was a spectator sport, down at the golf course, hundreds watching and filming the choppers snorkelling the water from the course dams, kids loving it, noise, spray, the lot. Stands were set up to feed the ground firies mopping up, people brought along food and drinks, and they even wrote letters to the local paper to say how good the whole fire group worked.

But I wonder how long the halo effect will last, and the NIMBYs start up again, forgetting that helicopters saved their suburb. And hundreds of other locations around our parched, burning country. Fires still burning, which started in September!

So, Jennie, bleat if you want to, but someday you might be glad that a helipad is so close to your house. They are not like trailbikes, which tear up the ground and leave damage behind. It's only noise, and noise disappears at the speed of sound.

 

[helonorth]

So the moral of the story, Jennie, is don't be mean to the helicopters or they might get mad and not come and fight the fires. If that happens, not only will your house burn but it sounds like you will miss out on a big party, too!  

[Thedude]

The moral of the story is the man has as much right to utilize his property as anyone else in the neighborhood. Talk to him, ask how often he expects to fly, request that he limits his early morning or late night flights, discuss how he intends to approach/depart the pad, etc. The only real concern is noise and it's far more likely the neighborhood is disrupted by straight pipe Harley's on a daily basis than helicopters. 

[helonorth]

That would be incorrect. Time and time again, helicopter operations have been restricted in residential areas. 

[RisePilot]

Jenny, a helicopter will take about 3 minutes to run-up before taking off and about 3 minutes to shut down (little faster if a turbine).  A private pilot coming into his lake house will (I assume) be quite infrequent); he's not exactly attempting to create a mini Chicago O'Hare.

On some of your comments:

...“quiet idyllic lake front”

...“densely populated neighbourhood”

- make up your mind, it can’t really be both

 

…"enjoyed the loons, ducks, geese, eagles etc. great fishing of dock, lots of lake dwellers besides humans"

- all those animals will continue thrive; one person landing a helicopter will make no discernible difference

 

…"To land it would have to come straight at the lakeshore towards the centre of a densely populated neighbourhood."

- Jenny how do you know the pilots landing pattern/procedure?; wind direction also plays a part here.

 

…"I’m not against this form of transportation. I just think there’s a better solution for this situation"

- you haven’t asked any meaningful/useful queries of any pilot on this forum; nor have you provided any specifics such a maps/diagrams/etc.  You've only stated your own self-derived assumptions and blankly asked the forum "What do you think"

 

The real starting point would be for you to go talk to the pilot directly.  Not come onto a pilots website to simply try to harvest any ammunition to stop him.

[helonorth]

You can have densely populated, quiet areas. They're called a residential neighborhoods.I live in such a place. She is probably right that the only approach is over the lake. Either that or over the houses. I probably wouldn't have come on here, either. I would get together with the rest of the neighbors and get a lawyer. The closer you are to this guy, the more you property value will suffer. Would you buy next door to this? Most people would not.

 

Edited February 5, 2020 by helonorth

[Jennie]

19 hours ago, Nearly Retired said:

Well, as usual Helonorth adds nothing constructive to the conversation.  Thanks for that! (And by the way, dummy, RisePilot used "anecdotal" correctly as an adjective.  An anecdote would be the noun.  Sheesh.)

Jennie, it sounds like we're coming in to the middle of this situation.  Sounds like this helicopter guy has already made his plans known to neighbors and the City Council.  Sounds like he's already even landed his helicopter on his property.  It also sounds like you're pretty much against it.

Anti-aviation people generally bring up arguments like, "beach erosion!" (what?) or "noxious fumes!" and the ever-popular, "think of the children!"...anything to bolster their case that what they're objecting to is a damaging, possibly earth-ending activity WHICH MUST BE STOPPED!

But look- bottom line is that if there are no local ordinances against landing a helicopter on one's private property (as you admit), then he can legally do it.  You'll just have to deal with those annoying "noxious fumes."  Get enough NIMBY townsfolk riled-up with pitchforks and torches in hand, and you can probably get the City Council or County Commission to dream up some anti-helicopter law to put him out of operation.  Because that's what people do when other people want to do something that pisses the first group of people off.

The FAA has rules that all pilots must go by.  Those rules state that we cannot endanger anyone in the air or on the ground.  If you feel that what this pilot is doing endangers said people on the ground, then make a complaint to said FAA.  Maybe, if they're interested enough, they'll come out and take a look.  But they might not.  Perhaps you could supply some video of the helicopter scattering floaties, canoes, trays of Rum Punches, and beach chairs on adjacent neighbors' docks, oh and blowing small children into the water, etc. 

Or....if it's just that you think that what he plans to do might endanger or impact some vague "quality of lake life" issues in the future...well...good luck with that.  You don't own his property, you don't own the lake, and you don't own the airspace above the lake.  Sorry.  This is America, toots!

I suspect that this fellow won't be coming and going from his lakefront helipad all that often.  I suspect that it won't even be year-round.  I suspect that you've all already decided that This Is Bad, and you've taken it upon yourselves to stop him.  I suspect that y'all are making a bigger deal out of this than it really is.  But as someone else said, without seeing the location, we can't really make any kind of judgment as to whether it's "appropriate" or "safe."  So if you're looking for some support from us for you and against this pilot, I believe you came to the wrong place.  

And seriously, "noxious fumes?"  Oh please.

Nearly retired 

I’m not anti aviation. I love to fly!  A heli pilot save my dads life.  My niece is a paramedic on a heli.  We have 3 friends who pilot fixed wings and one who is a heli pilot.  You completely missed the point of my inquiry.  I’m not looking for “some support from “ you and “against this pilot”.   I came to this site purposely to get some professional opinions from those who pilot helis. Who best to get expert opinions from but pilots?  You can call it ammunition.  I call it information.  And to those who responded, I am thankful.   If a viable option(s)  already exists for safe, monitored landing with no disruption to the neighborhood, would you think that is the better/safer/smarter option?

This is in a very small town and the city council didn’t see this coming so of course no ordinances were created to deal with such instances.  In this case a protective fence can’t even be built around the proposed pad because, by existing ordinance, such fence would be too close to the lake. This “helicopter guy” has not ever landed on his newly purchased  property . As to your suspicion that he wont be “coming and going from his lakefront all that often” etc.. who knows?  I dont know what you mean by “making a bigger deal out of it than it really is” but if the fatal heli crash last year at the local airport is any factual example, I believe it is a pretty big deal.  I’m sure they followed the FAA rules.  

As to the “noxious fumes” I just read an article that a hospital roof heli landing pad was responsible for making employees sick due to the heli fumes seeping into the building.  I have the article if you’re interested.  

[Jennie]

helonorth    Thanks for your comments.  I think you understand where I'm coming from. The most (potentially) affected part of the neighborhood is along a road with houses on both sides.  A point like feature.  The land curves in the middle of the neighborhood creating a baylike waterfront surrounded by homes.  The heli would come in from the lake to land.  There are homes, trees and high elevation from any other direction. I used "densely populated" to describe the setting. Like you said, it is a residential neighborhood. No open spaces or large properties. It is very quiet and peaceful except on July 4!   I came on the forum asking for expert opinions/wisdom from pilots of siting a heli pad in the middle of the neighborhood. I dont have any personal experience so I am thankful for any thoughts you all have.  There is no room for error.  He's never landed there.  It hasn't been built yet. One neighbor said he isnt yet licensed for this type or size of heli.  But thats heresay.  I dont know if there are different licenses depending on size.   .  I'm not looking for "ammunition" to use against this guy, just good information.  Your honest opinions help. Thank you.  And for the record, I'm a beer girl 🍻! 

[helonorth]

I'm also from Minnesota 

9 minutes ago, Jennie said:

  And for the record, I'm a beer girl 🍻! 

I'm also from Minnesota so of course I like a beer, too!

[RisePilot]

3 hours ago, Jennie said:

I just read an article that a hospital roof heli landing pad was responsible for making employees sick due to the heli fumes seeping into the building.  I have the article if you’re interested.  

As evidenced by examples such as Helonorth's posts, not everything on the internet is true.

[Jennie]

https://www.hcpro.com/SAF-231016-877/Helicopter-exhaust-fumes-result-in-fine-for-LA-hospital.html

[helonorth]

I used to land at a hospital that complained about exhaust fumes in the building whenever we went there. We had to  park tail away from the building but if the wind was right, it didn't matter. They complained they could smell it in the whole hospital. The ground pad at U of Louisville has signs telling you to do the same. 

[helonorth]

[MLH]

When I first earned my rating I was pretty idealistic about the utility helicopters offer. There was enough room to land in my back yard, a vacant lot next door and a single neighbor up from me with the approach over an unpopulated coastal canyon.  I never took advantage of the opportunity due to concern that once a complaint came in I would have a target on my back.  The solution to the potential problem was to carefully research new digs where the possibility of complaints would be minimal to zero.  I  found 40 acres in a rural zone where the closest of my three neighbors is more than 1,000 feet away through a forest.  When I first began operation in and out of the property, that neighbor called to ask if I would take their son up for a ride to earn a Boy Scout merit badge.  Those folks actually go out of the way to hike through the woods to see the cool helicopter take off and land.  Some times we luck out.

Due diligence prior to purchasing a property can go a long way when it comes to dealing with the potential of pitchfork and torch wielding neighbors.