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VA flight training news 3/27/15


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#1 Mikemv

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 09:02

http://touch.latimes...e/p2p-83158570/

 

HAI has a web conference today on gathering suggestions for the VA to stop abuses and recommendations to continue resources for Vets to attain training.

 

My suggestion from a previous thread has been submitted to HAI for consideration to take to Washington in April.



#2 brettjeepski

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 09:31

Can someone please explain to me what these schools are saying to students to justify how it will help there career to do all their training in a Turbine? How are you supposed to build time after you get done with flight school? Who are they saying will hire you after you get done with their flight schools. Are they giving you plans of how to progress in the industry or are they just saying, "here are the keys to a shiny new Turbine, Eat, Drink and be Merry for tomorrow we die"?

 

Sucks that it had to happen to Veterans that have served our country. I am glad they are going after the schools that are abusing the system and charging ridiculous amounts of money to train in a freaking Bell/Astar when they could do the same amount of training in a less costly Helicopter (Robinson/300/Cabri/Enstrom).

People! If it sounds too good to be true....it probably is!!!


Aircraft I have flown: R22BII, R44 RI, R44 RII, MD 500E, Bell 206B3, Bell 206 L3 AS350B2, AS350B3e, EC130B4,


#3 brettjeepski

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 09:58

Can someone please explain to me what these schools are saying to students to justify how it will help there career to do all their training in a Turbine? How are you supposed to build time after you get done with flight school? Who are they saying will hire you after you get done with their flight schools. Are they giving you plans of how to progress in the industry or are they just saying, "here are the keys to a shiny new Turbine, Eat, Drink and be Merry for tomorrow we die"?

 

Sucks that it had to happen to Veterans that have served our country. I am glad they are going after the schools that are abusing the system and charging ridiculous amounts of money to train in a freaking Bell/Astar when they could do the same amount of training in a less costly Helicopter (Robinson/300/Cabri/Enstrom).

People! If it sounds too good to be true....it probably is!!!

Nevermind above. Someone just shared this with me which I think is great advice...

This industries schools and their tales of deceit have a long history that reaches back much further than these two most recent events. The question for me isn't "what do they tell students to get them to "fill in the blank"." The answer to that is easy they are offering a bigger better drug of choice and telling them it's free. What the real question is, is how do we, the professionals in this field police our own? How do we help the aspiring students that want to fill our shoes? How do we effectively change the very makeup of our industry so that there is something other than flight instruction jobs out there for newly minted pilots? How do we get the major helicopter companies to contribute, endorse, fund and influence their own futures through this first step in the long road of a professional pilot? If you want to influence change in our broken industry start there because howling at the moon about the dishonesty of a few greedy souls, in my mind is missing the point of the wake up call. Note that did not say that we need more laws or government entities involved, but that we need our industry to wake up and be outraged along with us.


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Aircraft I have flown: R22BII, R44 RI, R44 RII, MD 500E, Bell 206B3, Bell 206 L3 AS350B2, AS350B3e, EC130B4,


#4 RagMan

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 10:09

My flight training costs alone up in the Pacific North West (for just the flight school portion) were in the vicinity of $100,000 and that included Private -> CFII in Robinsons and 20 hours in a 206B at somewhere around $550 per hour (student rate.) I even think now the school I trained at is trying to transition the advanced courses (long line and mountain) over to the R44 from the B-206B.

 

The two-year AAS college degree in Aviation Science itself was probably another $50,000 if that (that number is probably on the high side). Add a monthly housing stipend for 2 1/2 years while I was in school and I'd say overall my total training with college (that I finished), all of my licenses and certificates up to CFII was probably reaching $200,000 over the course of 2 1/2 years (for just 1 individual). Not bad considering the outcome of currently flying for hire and logging time (WHILE making a pay check!) 

 

Proof that you can get it done with just a bunch of Robinson time and $200,000 from the VA. That is the kind of information the VA and Washington need to see. 

 

I think Mike has it on par with restricting the funds to piston helicopter training and incorporating a max cap overall. I'm thoroughly interested to see where Washington takes the Bill and the sort of changes that we'll see. All for the better of not only Veterans, but for the flight training industry and future pilots as a whole.


Edited by RagMan, 27 March 2015 - 10:15.

 


#5 AS350 pilot

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 10:19

Wow! Seriously? No offense, but $200K? I guess training costs have gone up since I was in flight school (8 years ago). I got done for under $60K plus 11 months of living expenses and that got me through CFII. But good for you that you were able to still work while you attended school.

 

It will be interesting to see where the government goes with this issue. I really hope for all those vets wanting to become pilots that they don't do away with this benefit. 

 

What would be a good solution? Put a cap on how much they can spend? Further restrict the schools that are allowed to train with the GI bill? Maybe not allow the schools that took advantage of this program to train with the GI bill anymore?



#6 Flying Pig

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 10:48

My flight training costs alone up in the Pacific North West (for just the flight school portion) were in the vicinity of $100,000 and that included Private -> CFII in Robinsons and 20 hours in a 206B at somewhere around $550 per hour (student rate.) I even think now the school I trained at is trying to transition the advanced courses (long line and mountain) over to the R44 from the B-206B.

 

The two-year AAS college degree in Aviation Science itself was probably another $50,000 if that (that number is probably on the high side). Add a monthly housing stipend for 2 1/2 years while I was in school and I'd say overall my total training with college (that I finished), all of my licenses and certificates up to CFII was probably reaching $200,000 over the course of 2 1/2 years (for just 1 individual). Not bad considering the outcome of currently flying for hire and logging time (WHILE making a pay check!) 

 

Proof that you can get it done with just a bunch of Robinson time and $200,000 from the VA. That is the kind of information the VA and Washington need to see. 

 

I think Mike has it on par with restricting the funds to piston helicopter training and incorporating a max cap overall. I'm thoroughly interested to see where Washington takes the Bill and the sort of changes that we'll see. All for the better of not only Veterans, but for the flight training industry and future pilots as a whole.

Yeah, sorry man..... $200,000? Im  sure that's the information the VA was looking at to make their decisions. $50K for an AS degree?  Good freakin' grief.


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#7 RagMan

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 11:39

My ballpark guess is probably very, very much on the high side for the college degree. The housing stipend though ran about $20,000 for 2 years while going to school full time.

Was it the most expensive overall? No. Was it the cheapest? No. Could it be cheaper? Probably. I feel good though that i utilized my benefits (while not necessarily sucking the tax payers dry of outrageous amounts of money) in the form and fashion that i wanted to for the professional career that i wanted to, and i have so far been successful with it and look to make it successful for years on end.

 


#8 RagMan

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 11:51

Im going to dig up my college costs and see overall what the ending payment total was from the va. Give me some time.

 


#9 eagle5

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 16:21

$200k, that's not a number I'd be proud to mention, and $50k for bs AAS that's probably no more useful than my AA in Ancient Egyptian Basket Weeving,... which cost me like $5k at my local junior college!

One things for sure, I seriously hope they don't include non vets who are not in flight training in the 85/15 split...that'd just be another loophole!



...what's this the 5th thread on this topic? Its getting hard to keep up! :D
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#10 Flying Pig

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 16:45

Crap.....  $5K for an AA?  Im out.



#11 Mikemv

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 17:09

$200k, that's not a number I'd be proud to mention, and $50k for bs AAS that's probably no more useful than my AA in Ancient Egyptian Basket Weeving,... which cost me like $5k at my local junior college!

One things for sure, I seriously hope they don't include non vets who are not in flight training in the 85/15 split...that'd just be another loophole!



...what's this the 5th thread on this topic? Its getting hard to keep up! :D

Eagle 5,

 

Why is it hard to keep up?

 

I dated the subject.

 

The article is also dated.



#12 adam32

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 17:26

My ballpark guess is probably very, very much on the high side for the college degree. The housing stipend though ran about $20,000 for 2 years while going to school full time.

Was it the most expensive overall? No. Was it the cheapest? No. Could it be cheaper? Probably. I feel good though that i utilized my benefits (while not necessarily sucking the tax payers dry of outrageous amounts of money) in the form and fashion that i wanted to for the professional career that i wanted to, and i have so far been successful with it and look to make it successful for years on end.


I don't think the $300,000+ number even includes housing or school pay or any type of other pay. Add those up and that CFII cert is even more expensive.

#13 eagle5

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 18:30

Eagle 5,
 
Why is it hard to keep up?
 
I dated the subject.
 
The article is also dated.


5 threads in 4 different forums...just making a joke about that dude.

#14 Mikemv

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 18:37

5 threads in 4 different forums...just making a joke about that dude.

Sorry

 

I have been working on this for the betterment and wanted everyone to have a grasp on what is going on or what might be going on.


Edited by Mikemv, 27 March 2015 - 18:39.


#15 eagle5

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 19:10

To be serious,

I'd like to see this issue on the evening news, or Dateline (I think that's the show that exposes things?) seems like that would be the way to reach a much larger audience. Here on VR I feel so isolated. I wonder if the guy who's writing those articles even knows it exists and that we are talking about them?

#16 andrewinbend

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 19:46

I started flight training just before the post 911 stuff came into effect. I used some of the old GI bill then switch to the new one when I could. I used about $72,000 from the VA (including the housing allowance, which was about $12,000 for one year) and I added about $30,000 of my own money. I think this should be closer to what the VA should be providing for veterans (but I still a little embarrassed about the huge amount of money they gave me for training).You would see an huge increase in the graduation rates of these programs if the Vet had to contribute to their own education. Nothing should be completely free for any Vet. Make the Vets pay for their Private rating before getting any money for the flight program. Nobody made them or myself join the military.   



#17 apacheguy

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 20:41

Solution: Leave the price cap where is it now, just require all vets to attend a school that's owned by a disabled vet. 



#18 adam32

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 21:00

Solution: Leave the price cap where is it now, just require all vets to attend a school that's owned by a disabled vet. 


What cap?

#19 Flying Pig

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 21:18

You know.... There was a time not long ago when this all worked just fine. Simply go back to what it was maybe with a few tweaks. But no, I don't believe anyone rates a $200,000 pilots license and a $50,000 AA degree.

#20 Spike

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 01:30

This is an “analysis by paralysis” scenario which continues to disgrace this industry as a whole. To wit, it would seem the US government can’t figure out how a few corrupt helicopter flight schools are taking extreme advantage of the VA, and it’s beneficiaries, all the while the helicopter industry sits back and watch’s it happen… Please, for those of us who’ve been around for a while, don’t insult our intelligence. Shoot, never-employed, non-helicopter-professionals on this site can figure it out…. With that, why are HAI web-conferences necessary?.........


Edited by Spike, 28 March 2015 - 01:31.





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