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[Guest Maximinious]

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Edited July 30, 2011 by Maximinious

[lelebebbel]

He clears us for the "option" yet requires all helicopter traffic to report the exact maneuver to be performed (steep, shallow, straight-in auto, 180 autorotation, shallow, etc.) Maybe I'm wrong, but I haven't heard of any helicopter being required to adhere to such a request.

 

You should try Townsville, Australia... no "option", get a clearance to take off and a clearance to land every time around and be prepared to hold for 5 minutes for your takeoff clearance because of some airplane 30nm away.

I'd hate to be training there.... military trainee controllers do everything by their training book, no shortcuts whatsoever.

 

That aside, how do the other controllers at that tower handle helicopters? Have you considered just going up there for a visit and talking to the guy in person?

[Guest Maximinious]

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Edited July 30, 2011 by Maximinious

[Parafiddle]

I think you are on the right track in talking directly with the controller. Make sure you go into the meeting with an attitude of collaboration, not confrontation. After all, they are people too. We all have the same goal - safe flight. It may be that this controller is new, or doesn't fully understand helicopter operations. On the other hand, they may have a very legitimate reason for wanting to know the information they are asking for.

 

At our aero club, they used to get together periodically with the ATC folks. I was never able to make the meetings, but one of the things I heard come out of it was that some of the controllers didn't realize that the pilots were only operating on one radio frequency at a time (i.e. Tower or Ground) vs. ATC's ability to listen and transmit on multiple frequencies at once.

 

Another suggestion is to offer to take the controller up in a helicopter for a short flight in the pattern or local area. It would give them an opportunity to see how things are on the other end of the radio and might turn a perceived adversary into a confirmed ally. As has been stated on this forum many times - networking is key to success, just don't limit yourself to people that might hire you.

[500F]

You should try Townsville, Australia... no "option", get a clearance to take off and a clearance to land every time around and be prepared to hold for 5 minutes for your takeoff clearance because of some airplane 30nm away.

I'd hate to be training there.... military trainee controllers do everything by their training book, no shortcuts whatsoever.

 

That aside, how do the other controllers at that tower handle helicopters? Have you considered just going up there for a visit and talking to the guy in person?

 

Townsville is a farly larege airport though, with virgin and other large air carriers using it. This is a class D. But yeah, pay the guys a friendly visit or bite your tounge.

 

On a personal note, I love townsville, and magnetic Island. Almsot moved there a few years back.

[helistar]

Here's my suggestions... Take the time to talk with the controller and then take him on a flight around the local area. Hopefully this works, but if not next time he's dogging you on the radio, simply reply "N1234 requesting a Rated Controller" in doing this two things will happen, all the other controllers in the tower are going to laugh their butts off and secondly your going to totally piss off this controller, which is only going to make your time in his pattern tougher.

[kodoz]

Yes, collaborate. I know that a few schools on towered airports have sat down and developed a memorandum of understanding (MOU) with the controllers so everybody is getting what they need.

[rotor91]

There is this class D airport that has this *sshole operator working the control tower. He clears us for the "option" yet requires all helicopter traffic to report the exact maneuver to be performed (steep, shallow, straight-in auto, 180 autorotation, shallow, etc.) Maybe I'm wrong, but I haven't heard of any helicopter being required to adhere to such a request.

 

Furthermore, he is very rude and unprofessional in the manner that he speaks to people in the traffic pattern. I would like more than anything to tell him to shove his head up his *ss, but I don't want to cause any drama for helicopter guys at this airport. I guess I should bite my tongue and deal with his rudeness, but I would like to know if there is anything I can do about his demand for all helicopter in the pattern to call out the maneuver we want to perform when we are already clear for the option? It's rather annoying.

 

EVERY controller is different, from our recent meeting with ATC from 3 diff surrounding airports. BUT, I suggest you call the tower on the phone, and ask to speak to the supervisor. Be cordial, polite, and explain your story about this person. IF there are others that feel the same way, have them call as well. We were told that if you have any complaints, to always call the tower and ask to talk to a supervisor. They can always pull the tapes, and listen to the audio of said controller.

 

My .02

R91

[clay]

had to get rid of my mean post.... go talk to them. i was just joshin on what i said

Edited May 24, 2011 by clay

[ADRidge]

You walk in the door, actually..kick in the door. Walk straight up to him and punch him in the face. after he is done crying and recovering from all the blood, you slap down a piece of paper with all your demands on it and walk out. Next time he calls you on the radio, you tell him your busy and you'll get back to him.

 

That should do it.

 

Nice!

[Spike]

After 9/11, getting a tower visit isn’t as easy as it used to be. In any case, if you do get to visit, I suggest you do not go empty handed. Bring a 6 pack of ice-tea and a large bag of cheesy popcorn. This has given me card blanch at many-a-airports….. Shoot once, a controller kicked a guy (the local knucklehead) off the only helipad just to allow me in!! All because of the ice-tea and cheesy popcorn……..

[Mikemv]

Maxi, why not just be professional and start announcing what maneuver you will be doing. It will set a great example for your students and it may improve safety by making the controllers job easier.

 

Then, ask for a meeting with the tower Chief about a possible letter of agreement (LOA) for operations at that airport. Be ready with some suggestions for the LOA and consider all other traffic when working this out.

 

Also, include other helicopter schools in the meeting and talk with them first about good operating procedures.

 

Be Safe, not pissed off.

 

Mike

Edited May 21, 2011 by Mikemv

[clay]

my way is the best.

[Goldy]

my way is the best.

 

Not really Clay, but your way is definitely the Texas way !!!

[gary-mike]

my way is the best.

 

BWAHHHHAAAHAA!!! I LOVE YOUR SENSE OF HUMOR!!! AND PERSECTIVE, sounds like something I would be tempted to do.

[clay]

thanks for the support Goldy

[RkyMtnHI]

I agree with many here, The folks in the towers are people just like us.. they have jobs to do, things that happen in their lives and politics with their jobs to deal with.. you might not know what is going on in their world at that moment. A few weeks ago our tower had a FW pilot doing patterns at our airport reporting on Boulders freq. He was new to the area and thought he was somewhere else, it took a while to figure out just what was going on because he wasn't responding to any calls. I expect it was pretty busy in the tower at that moment.

 

We know about that incident because we have regular meetings with the supervisors from our tower. They know we have scheduled CFII safety meetings every Wednesday mornings and they stop in when they have a new procedure or issue to talk about. They also know that we are working diligently on our SMS and invited us to a risk assessment meeting for a new helicopter route at KBJC, since we had been working on our SMS (with Mike Franz's help), we had a lot to add to their program. Also, our tower is a training center for controllers (yours might be as well, this complicates things a little bit) we have worked with most of the controllers in our tower, old and new. We invited them all over one at a time to fly our sim, and talk with our CFIIs about helicopter performance and the differences between our platforms and the FW folks we share the airport with. It makes a huge difference when you KNOW who is on the radio, and they know you.

 

i highly recommend you call the supervisor, make an appointment to visit the tower, (we have had NO issues getting our team and students visits to our tower), and get to know as many of them as possible.. it will go a long way for everyone involved. When you visit, expect a positive cordial meeting and it will be.. i also recommend that you, and all of you that can do this, invite your controllers to your school or operation, all of them, and talk with them about how and what you do. We have also taken some of them for flights around the pattern to see what we see from the air.. it all goes a long way for safety and communication.

 

Oh yeah, on one of my first visits to our tower i learned about an area in our pattern that the helos were almost impossible to see, and, when they were in certain areas on the ramps and turned a certain direction they were also almost invisible. You might have similar issues where you fly, when you see it from their prospective a light definitely goes on.. and visa versa.

 

aloha,

 

dp

 

Clay, i don't have bail money.. don't call me!! lol

[clay]

dont yell at him.. i was wrong

Edited May 24, 2011 by clay

[Tenacious T]

I trained at an airport that started requiring us to do this. At the time it made sense because there would usually be several of us in the pattern together and the type of maneuver would affect sequencing. In other words, some maneuvers took longer than others before you were on the go again.

[JDHelicopterPilot]

It's all about developing positive relationships. Back years ago as a CFI I got to know each of the controllers. It got to a point where when I was doing supervised solo's they would invite me up to the tower. I got to know their names, who they were and they got to learn more about helicopters and helicopter operations.

 

As a result the professional working relationship was great as they understood better what helicopters in the training envirionment do and what to expect when we are out there.

[JDHelicopterPilot]

We had a Controler at LGB who acted much the same way. It was a running joke that his wife was dating a helicopter pilot.

[500F]

Here's my suggestions... Take the time to talk with the controller and then take him on a flight around the local area. Hopefully this works, but if not next time he's dogging you on the radio, simply reply "N1234 requesting a Rated Controller" in doing this two things will happen, all the other controllers in the tower are going to laugh their butts off and secondly your going to totally piss off this controller, which is only going to make your time in his pattern tougher.

It is a class D, should only be one controller

[Nolapilot89]

I recall doing a night solo once with a controller like this. Didn't make much sense since I was the only aircraft in the pattern. He lightened up once we started discussing our favorite methods for boiling crawfish.

 

That's Louisiana for you, I suppose.

[ctimrun]

BTW the controller JD mentioned is still at LGB.

[AngelFire_91]

It is a class D, should only be one controller

 

Not necessarily true... ours is a class D and we sometimes have up to 6 controllers on at any one time. Local 1, Local 2, Local Helo, Ground, Clearance/ATIS director, and a Cab supervisor.

 

We will also announce what we are planning on doing. We've of course made a LOA with the tower and such since we're so busy here, but it's always a good idea to talk to the tower guys and even explain what you expect from them when you're doing such things. Remember that not all controllers are pilots, some haven't ever even been in an aircraft before so don't expect them to know what a 180 auto is, or running landing. Conversation goes a LONG ways.