Jump to content

Ferry from Medford, Oregon to Miami with ATP, $200/hour


Recommended Posts

Its an R22, with an ATP this could be a lot of hours, perhaps 40? Also, Chicago to Miami, Cleveland to Miami and Boston to Miami coming up. Tom 561-346-2816


This sounds like the perfect opportunity to give one of your current students some flight experience... Or... is that not how you do business?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I did a bit of sailing back home in Florida and while on a sailing forum I came across this gem...



The word on Sailing Anarchy is that they are a bunch of bastards -


They take the shots of you, and you ask them to mail them to you so you can see them.


You then decide hmmm, I don't want to pay for them, and like a good person you send them back.


Turns out 9 times out of 10 they will say they never got the pictures back and charge you for all of them. You dispute then they send it to a collections agency just for fun.


Your credit gets ruined, you don't get your pictures, and you spend months trying to work it all out - all because you thought it would be nice to get a picture of your boat.


There was a reason folks cheered when one of their helicopters crashed recently (nobody injured).


Also, if you are racing they can really screw up your wind by flying way too low - it sucks.



From http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?81111-Anyone-bought-pix-from-boatpix-com

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From a lot of those posts it seems that the pictures are pretty expensive, with the justification being operating expenses,...like fuel! :lol: I gather that most of those boat owners don't know that the "photographers" are paying $200/hr plus fuel for the privilage of taking those pictures (while somehow counting it as PIC time)! One pilot is making $20/hr on the hobbs while the other pilot pays $200/hr plus the fuel costs,(I wouldn't be surprised if there were times when both pilots are paying!) and the photos are overpriced,...damn what a racket!,...I wish I had thought of it!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nobody thinks that boatpix is actually going to pay someone two hundred dollars an hour to ferry an R22, do they? Of course not.


He or she is selling flight time at two hundred dollars an hour, as though it's a favor to someone. The opportunity to get cross country helicopter time, the chance of a life time, point A to point B, on a "long" trip.


What's the advantage of doing it with an ATP-rated pilot in the other seat? Beats me. It doesn't change the way the time is logged. It doesn't entitle the ATP to give instruction during that time. It doesn't do anything other than put another warm body in the other seat who hopefully has his or her head screwed on straight, so the notion that the other person has an ATP doesn't really mean anything. After all, the ATP is little more than an instrument checkride, not really any different than getting an instrument rating.


Boatpix sells jobs. Boatpix is all about raping the industry. Why hire someone, after all, when you can get someone to pay to work for you? That's boatpix. A blight on the industry and a big failure in terms of ethics and morality. Nothing new here. The comments on the other site linked in this thread aren't surprising.


A legitimate employer hires a pilot to fly for the employer, not the other way around. Keep that in mind when dealing with boatpix.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I employ about 20 to 30 entry level pilots a year. Entry level. They all come in without jobs and seem to leave with turbine jobs. This has been going on for years with roots back to my first jetranger flight in1986 and my subsequently finding R22's. This is sort of the entry level pilot forum and when someone like me offers an alternative and a hope to the young and low hour pilot it seems the older and high hour pilots don't remember the challenges of building hours. I have the cheapest hours in the world. And it seems the most opportunities for entry level pilots. I agree that straight and level isn't as skill building as the boat photo and if you want to do boat photo we have an opening now in Torrance, CA (Los Angeles Area) and Seattle, Chicago, Detroite, Cleveleand, New York are all getting a bit too cold so those helicotpers are moving south. I could send the student I have from Florida to do these ferry flights but I'd rather have them concentrate on the more technical and skill requird boat photo. Our customers are about 99% powerboats and much like helicopters are a subset of aviation there is a subset of boating known as those that use the wind (think of gliders in aviation). Gliders and helicopters are a small portion of aviation and they have their forums. Sailors have their forums. We sell a lot of pictures to happy customers that are thrilled and express this with their wallets. We have a lot of students that express this with their wallets. I don't see too many of my students or instructors on these forums as they are happy and comfortable in aviation. If you need to build time you will find I have the cheapest time and you should reach out to me. There are a lot of people that get training and the wrong school to get them a job. As I started as an operator of helicopters where we weren't taking passengers (lets call that an entry level job) and have stayed in this sector we provide a invaluable service.


A couple of weeks ago I spent a week in Monterey, California for the big car week out there. If you watch things like the Barrett-Jackson car auctions or see the cars being judged on the lawn at Pebble Beach and the Concourse d' Elegance you get the picture. An old friend and pilot called and he has flown 14 seasons now on a very popular television show that travels around the world and he also just finished up a sting in Antartica on a boat. He said that he had scoured the world for entry level jobs and ended up with my company in th 1990's because there weren't too many entry level jobs back then and there aren't too many now. He paid back then and is still happy with that decision. IF you don't have enough hours for a job or want to get on with us, you can call me at 561-346-2816 or click on one of my many ads on this sight. I also sponsored the job fair at the Heli-Expo last year as there are a LOT of low time pilots that are looking for a first job.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, youse gotta luv it, dontcha? Non-apologetic to the last.


Gliders and helicopters are a small portion of aviation and they have their forums. Sailors have their forums.


Their forum wasn't very complementary of you or your services or business practices, was it?


This is a helicopter forum. People aren't very complimentary of your business practices here, either.


Other forums are less nice about it:




Now...you've posted before and also elsewhere that you don't care about the sailboats, and have no use or respect for the sail anarchy folks, though you post there too under the name "boatpix," and talk about your successes and big business snapping pictures of sailboats, too. You really can't have your cake and eat it too.


Such professionalism...http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=130593&hl=boatpix#entry3551498 "....Cools off at night and as I write this at Schooner Wharf there is a rather talented band playing and they "knot and shot" folks are getting set up on the other side of the tavern for that nightly competition. And two lesbos holding hands just walked by with tanktops but no bras..."


How about these folks, thrilled about your services, from the same forum (the one on which you post, but also badmouth, while bragging about the demand for your pictures from the same)?




Ouch. How about these happy folks?




If you need to build time you will find I have the cheapest time and you should reach out to me.


Remember folks: "least expensive" and "cheapest are two different things. "Cheapest" is not a complimentary term, and does not denote quality or service. Paying for a job is never a good thing, even when the employer calls it "time building."


Build experience. Not hours.


For many years a similar scam was running in the fixed wing world with a company called "Gulfstream." They'd charge eighteen thousand or so for some poor unknowing sap (or someone too lazy to do otherwise) who would buy the job, "build hours,' and possibly stay working there or move on. I've seen far more resumes trashcanned from people who went there than I've seen people hired. In fact, I've turned my back and walked away from people who told me they participated in those schemes.


Buying a job puts a black mark on your record, so by all means, reach out to someone like boatpix who doesn't have the business morality to pay pilots: he charges pilots to "work" for him. Or to ride alongside, and call it "instruction."


Let's not get into the shady business practices, no proofs of the pictures, trying to force people to buy the pictures, and all that. The boat forums say enough about that, and participants can read for themselves about the widespread dissatisfaction and reputation.


I also sponsored the job fair at the Heli-Expo last year as there are a LOT of low time pilots that are looking for a first job.


There are a lot of people looking for jobs, aren't there? Why not prey on all of them, getting them to pay you, rather than the other way around?


A job, you see, is about receiving money. Not paying it.


But then why pay someone to ferry your aircraft across the country when you can milk money out of someone else who pays you, instead? You're doing the industry a favor, right?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A 200hr pilot can get hired at a school that didn't train him, I've seen it happen!,...so can a 300hr pilot,...and a 400hr one,...and a 500hr one,...and so on. They won't get hired at boatpix though, not until they've bought 100hrs in a Mariner (a helicopter so difficult to fly it takes 100hrs to learn how!),...or is it taking pictures of boats that's so hard to master?


I can't believe that a company that doesn't actually hire pilots is allowed to sponser a job fair for pilots!,...that's seriously f*cked up!!!


From a buddy of mine who spoke with them at the job fair:

"I've got just over 500hrs in an R22, what kind of a pilot are you looking for?" "Well, first you'll have to go through our program, its 100hrs,...at a discounted rate..."!


Another buddy of mine who had just under 2000hrs was also at that job far. He went to the PHI booth talked with them, and was later hired!,...even though he had no experience at the job, or in a 206,...and they weren't going to charge him for that training!


Do you think boatpix would have hired him? I doubt it, since even with 2000hrs he had no time in a Mariner, so they probably still would have charged him to train for 100hrs!

Edited by eagle5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This started as a thread about a ferry flight. All people that post of forums have some agenda including myself (I want to fill a seat for a ferry flight). The people that post on this forum and other fourms have a negative agenda. I have about 20 flight instructors that work for me and all seem pretty happy as they have a job and never seem to be on these forums, ever. I have more paid boat photo customers than any helicopter magazine on the planet. Or boating magazine for that matter. This is a lot of paid pictures in 30 years and with 30 helicopters. Yes, people will be angry at the cost of helicopters or the cost of helicopter pictures and I don't know what I can do about that. Most of my boat photo customers are very happy and compliment us all the time but they do that with the credit card and not with a post on a forum that is just about complaints. The better gage would be to look at the Better Business Bureau who is going to investigate a complaint and I have that darn link on the homepage of the website www.boatpix.com. Often, the most negative and vocal complaints are those from competitors that just can't compete and they take to negative posts that raise awareness of my good values.


I can offer $200/hour helicopter time year round and we do that. I sponsor a lot of things like the job fair at Heli Expo and somehow that gets twisted on this forum also (see above: I sponsor an event and a guy gets hired by someone else as he doesn't meet my insurance). I sponsor this forum, also, through my advertising on this site. I offer free admission to all my cfi's at Heli-Success and you can meet them there or contact them via email or cellphone as most all of them are listed on my website either in the map or the contact page. My gig is pretty simple, you come to my school and get 300 hours and cfi and we guarantee you a job. Transfer to my school and buy 100 hours and if you have a cfi we give you a job.


I'm in the position now where many people that do the hiring know that my CFI's have real helicopter time and we groom them all for management of the helicopter in a location. So, I get a call from an operator that "we need 15 pilots by this date" and all of a sudden I need some more helicopter pilots. It also helps that they can chill in my dormitory for free until those calls come in and that is usually in the spring. But this thread started as "does anyone want to pay for some helicopter time at $200/hour?"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My agenda is to make sure students and pilots aren't duped into this. It's not just helicopter time at $200/hr. If I was still a student and this time was spent doing actual training flights (autos, maneuvers, etc and able to go where I want since I am paying for the time) then $200/hr is a great deal. But this is not. You need to relocate this helicopter. I think everyone here can understand if you were trying to offset some fuel costs. You are not. You are being cheap, deceitful (as if flying s&l with an ATP is somehow different than flying s&l with a CFI or even solo), and quite frankly, it's disgusting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Often, the most negative and vocal complaints are those from competitors that just can't compete and they take to negative posts that raise awareness of my good values.


Who here is your competitor?


Nobody? Interesting. Not a soul here profits from their comments about you, yet never the less...


Transfer to my school and buy 100 hours and if you have a cfi we give you a job.


You're selling jobs. We all get that. Buy a job for the measly sum of twenty or thirty grand, huh?


Silverstate is gone. You're what's wrong with the industry.


You, and your ilk.


The people that post on this forum and other fourms have a negative agenda. I have about 20 flight instructors that work for me and all seem pretty happy as they have a job and never seem to be on these forums, ever.


This is your defense, that the minions whom to whom you cater, who crawl to you begging for a job, and who pay for the privilege of working for you, don't bad mouth you on the internet? Why do you suppose that is?


Interesting that you point out that nobody here who posts about you is beholden to you in any way. You can't hold anything over our heads. We don't have to worry about whether or not you'll recommend us for a job. We haven't paid you large sums of money to buy employment from you. We're not under your thumb as a student. We're not your competitor. We've nothing to gain by these observations, and yet we all have an agenda. Unitedly, the same one it seems.


You're past ten feet deep and still digging. Most people would be smart enough to shut up, give it a rest, keep quiet and appear the fool, rather than keep on talking and remove all doubt. You're not most people. You have an agenda. It's clear, and your agenda is seen by all. You're there to bilk money out of students and the low time pilots; you build your business on both ends. Not only do you collect money for pictures (with very bad business practices, based on the testimony of your customers, as we've seen), but you milk your "employees" for money too. Make money from the work done by the helicopters, and collect a profit from the pilots themselves. You've got it pegged, don't you?


You may have a Jesus complex, seeing yourself as some kind of savior, but it's certainly not how you're seen. You do nothing to bolster your image by talking yourself up. Nothing. You only embarrass yourself, and were it not so sad, it would be a crying shame.


This started as a thread about a ferry flight. All people that post of forums have some agenda including myself (I want to fill a seat for a ferry flight).


You knew exactly what you were doing when you started the thread, and you knew exactly what the response would be to you, as it's always the same, because of who you are and what you do and what you represent. It's clear as day.


Truth be told, the only person here with anything to gain is you, and it's ill gotten gain.


The only person with an agenda here is you, too, and despite your attempt to shine it, there's nothing holy about your intent or your actions. Your defensiveness makes that quite clear. Paint yourself a saint all you want. Your undercoat shows right through.

Edited by avbug
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I also have a job, a flying job and with a great company. Been flying 9 years now... I have met hundreds of other pilots. Never met one of "your" pilots Tom. And actually none of my pilot friends have either. If your "program" works so good and you have been doing business for so long where are your pilots? Just like Lindsay said were just trying to keep somebody from getting duped! It's a scam nothing more!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tom, I wouldn't worry about it... it's the same people on this forum that have nothing better to do than to criticize others for their successes.


Rather than work hard to own a business and make the changes that they are suggesting, they'd rather spend the time bad mouthing others to make themselves feel better.


It's nice that people have choices, and that is what you offer. Keep on doing what you are doing!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It used to irritate me when people sold time on ferry flights. It doesn't anymore. First off, I think it's pointless to rip on people that do it as they are always going to be offered and pilots are always going to pay to do them. It's their helicopter, it's their money, it's a free country...Many of us that have been doing this for a while have forgotten how expensive it is to build up the time to get the ratings and the hours to be employable. Since this is the age of the Robinson, for the struggling up and comer some relatively inexpensive R-44 time can't hurt. When I was training, for three years I ran an infrared camera on some contracts that required a 15 hour ferry to get to the job. The owner sold the outbound seat and I got paid a little and flew it home. It was pretty cool to be getting free 206 time, and for the first trip I wasn't even yet rated. The pilot that paid for the seat was just doing it for fun. It was a small outfit, the work was much needed and some of us got very cheap or free 206 time. Everybody was happy (well, I sure would have liked to have done both flights, but hey, it ain't a perfect world!). So the next time someone again advertises one of these flights, think back to when you were struggling for hours and the place where you were training was barely hanging on. There are places that seem to be greedy as they are trying to make an extra buck, but as I said, nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can think back clearly enough to a time when I was struggling. One thing I never did was buy a job or pay for my training when an employer should have done so.


I worked for an operator years ago who announced that he was considering starting a pay-to-play program, and I told him that he could consider institution of such a program my resignation. I wouldn't work for someone who did such a thing. He brought someone on board who paid for his own training, and who announced that he just wanted to fly "for fun." Didn't require a salary. Nobody would fly with the guy. I refused, as did everyone else. Partially because of his ethics, and partially because he was incompetent. Competent pilots don't need to do what he did, and it was the only way he got on board.


Several posters here have indicated that they've been involved in programs in which employers brought non-company personnel on board for ferry flights. I was particularly impressed with the poster who indicated that he gave training, endorsements, and manuals to such people. The company was NOT trying to make a buck of those filling the other seat during a ferry leg.


I've done a lot of repositioning flights. I've repositioned five miles away, and seven thousand miles away; empty, non-revenue legs. Certainly my employers could have "sold" those seats, but they'd have needed to get someone else to make the flight. I wasn't doing it. I did have one operator in Saudi Arabia a few years ago who wanted to put local arabs who needed "hours", and who had received their training in the States, on board. I refused. We ended up getting just one of them, and he wasn't competent enough to hold a heading or altitude. No thanks. Not even if they pay me, not even if they pay to be there.


A commercial operation doesn't need people paying to be there. Commercial operations are businesses. A business has no business making business our of employees; making a profit from employees, and making a wringing blood from a stone is not the way to go.


No, nobody's holding a gun to anyone's head. It's worse than that. At least the sorry sap might have an excuse, then.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As usual avbug, you are out of touch with reality. If somebody wants to sell a seat and somebody wants to buy it, knock yourselves out. I really could not give a crap less. The folks doing this are not the not the ax murderers they are made out to be. I would not even say it is unethical. Service provided, service received. Yawn...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Create New...