The Entry-Level Pilot's Level of Knowledge,...or lack there of?

[adam32]

BFR or FR whatever you want to call it...if you go for a job and an old gray haired guy is interviewing you I would suggest calling it a BFR because most likely he hasn't had a current FAR/AIM in years...

[Mikemv]

P47,

 

To move things along, can you tell us what your review consisted of as far as how much ground and what subject areas, how much flight and what maneuvers or scenarios?

 

The minimum of one hour of ground and one hour of flight is something that the IHST, JHSIT training work group is addressing as being too minimal and non-directive. Many pilots take the least expensive route with a CFI willing to sign them off as "satisfactorily completing" and not the most beneficial review according to what they need to stay current and proficient.

 

Let us discuss what you did that you found beneficial to you please.

[helonorth]

 

Couldn’t have said it better myself….

LOL

[pilot#476398]

P47,

 

To move things along, can you tell us what your review consisted of as far as how much ground and what subject areas, how much flight and what maneuvers or scenarios?

 

The minimum of one hour of ground and one hour of flight is something that the IHST, JHSIT training work group is addressing as being too minimal and non-directive. Many pilots take the least expensive route with a CFI willing to sign them off as "satisfactorily completing" and not the most beneficial review according to what they need to stay current and proficient.

 

Let us discuss what you did that you found beneficial to you please.

 

There were basic memory type questions about the aircraft's limitations. Some basic aerodynamic questions, like transverse flow, ETL, types of drag, he even asked about the different types of airfoils,...not sure why he got this basic though? Some regs questions (req. equipment, innop instruments, weather minimums, NTSB, etc), a little weather (types of fog, what I look for in deciding to go/no go) . There was even one about hypoxia.

 

When it came to the emergency proceedures though he asked them using a more "what would you do if you were flying over this area, and this happened?" instead of just straight up asking for the step by step definitions. One was about having the clutch lite come on over this one place I usually fly, asking where I would land and why there? Another was about alternator failure and the possibility of then losing the radio, while having the class bravo between me an the nearest airport,...stuff like that.

 

I've had a few "flight reviews" before (since I fly both the 22 and 44 and they're about a year apart) and the cfis were never this thourough before, it was just the basic ask a few questions and chat for a bit. This was a nice change from that, I actually felt like I learned something, instead of just having my knowledge "reviewed".

 

The flight part was just the basic emergency proceedures thing with an off airport landing thrown in. Nothing special.

 

I definitely liked the scenario approach to asking about the emergency proceedures, no one has ever really done that with me before. As for the flight part, it would have been nice to do more advanced autos like they do at the RHC course, so far that seems to be the only place I ever get to do things like zero airspeed, moving sideways, minimum rate,...and of course touchdowns. No one seems to want to do those,...although maybe its just with me?

[Hand_Grenade_Pilot]

This seems like it might be a good topic of its own?

 

I've always been kind of proud of the fact that if tomarrow I had to re-take the oral part of my checkride, I'd pass with no problem at all. In fact I just passed my BFR with flying colors! However I'm getting the impression that that level of knowledge isn't enough,...even for an entry-level pilot?

 

So, to you experienced commercial pilots (and especially those who do the hiring) in what areas of knowledge do you see that the entry-level pilots whom you come across are lacking?,...and don't say grammer!

 

Entry-level pilots are 'lacking' in every department; aircraft performance, emergency procedures, weather theory, pilotage & dead-reckoning, etc. A pilot's license (whether it's Private or Commercial) is merely a foundation to build on. So read up on everything and continue to challenge yourself.

 

For example, design an Excel Spreadsheet to compute W&B/performance for your aircraft. If you don't know anything about Excel, learn about it. If you've already done this, download a flight manual for an aircraft you've never flown and do it again.

 

Or study weather theory. You could spend years studying weather and still get it wrong...

 

When flying, challenge yourself. Do a couple of long XC flights w/out using GPS, VORs or NDBs (or an iPad). Land at a Class B airport. Find an experienced instructor to teach you stuck pedal landings or advanced auto-rotation techniques.

 

If you ever reach a point where you're satisfied and feel like you know enough... look out. There's always something new to learn or improve upon. Becoming complacent is the most dangerous thing you can do as a pilot.

[Spike]

Land at a Class B airport.

 

Most International Airports charge landing fees. In fact, the last time I landed at a class B airport it cost $400.

[Hand_Grenade_Pilot]

 

Most International Airports charge landing fees. In fact, the last time I landed at a class B airport it cost $400.

 

A valid and good point; landing and parking fees would prevent that from being an economical option.

 

A less costly alternative could simply be planning a flight that requires operating within Class B airspace.

[helipilotm]

 

Entry-level pilots are 'lacking' in every department; aircraft performance, emergency procedures, weather theory, pilotage & dead-reckoning, etc. A pilot's license (whether it's Private or Commercial) is merely a foundation to build on. So read up on everything and continue to challenge yourself.

Exactly!! Just because you have the plastic in hand doesn't mean your done learning. When I got my CFI the examiner handed me the temp and said now is the time your gonna learn so much more than you ever could have in training. When he said that I really didn't understand what he meant. Today almost 9 years later I understand exactly what he meant. If your not constantly learning something it's time to hang it up because your going to kill yourself or somebody else!

[aeroscout]

Exactly!! Just because you have the plastic in hand doesn't mean your done learning. When I got my CFI the examiner handed me the temp and said now is the time your gonna learn so much more than you ever could have in training. When he said that I really didn't understand what he meant. Today almost 9 years later I understand exactly what he meant. If your not constantly learning something it's time to hang it up because your going to kill yourself or somebody else!

You learn the best and the most when you start teaching, no matter how good of a student you were.

[pilot#476398]

 

Entry-level pilots are 'lacking' in every department; aircraft performance, emergency procedures, weather theory, pilotage & dead-reckoning, etc. A pilot's license (whether it's Private or Commercial) is merely a foundation to build on. So read up on everything and continue to challenge yourself.

 

For example, design an Excel Spreadsheet to compute W&B/performance for your aircraft. If you don't know anything about Excel, learn about it. If you've already done this, download a flight manual for an aircraft you've never flown and do it again.

 

Or study weather theory. You could spend years studying weather and still get it wrong...

 

When flying, challenge yourself. Do a couple of long XC flights w/out using GPS, VORs or NDBs (or an iPad). Land at a Class B airport. Find an experienced instructor to teach you stuck pedal landings or advanced auto-rotation techniques.

 

If you ever reach a point where you're satisfied and feel like you know enough... look out. There's always something new to learn or improve upon. Becoming complacent is the most dangerous thing you can do as a pilot.

 

Although your point is valid, its a bit broad. Of course if we continue studying we'll improve, but I was looking for more specific examples of deficiency, like; "A lot of our new hires can't navigate for sh*t without a GPS" (as someone already mentioned), or "The new guys here are terrible at reading the wind outside of an airport environment". I remember reading once that the 1000hr guys a company was interviewing couldn't read a chart to save their lives! Things like that.

 

I suppose this topic question would be a good one to ask at Helisuccess where there are some employers around to answer?

[Hand_Grenade_Pilot]

 

Although your point is valid, its a bit broad. Of course if we continue studying we'll improve, but I was looking for more specific examples of deficiency, like; "A lot of our new hires can't navigate for sh*t without a GPS" (as someone already mentioned), or "The new guys here are terrible at reading the wind outside of an airport environment". I remember reading once that the 1000hr guys a company was interviewing couldn't read a chart to save their lives! Things like that.

 

I suppose this topic question would be a good one to ask at Helisuccess where there are some employers around to answer?

 

It may seem broad, but when a new pilot thinks they know everything, that is a specific deficiency. And, unfortunately, it's a deficiency that a lot of experienced pilots have as well.

 

About a year ago we had to hire a new instructor. Three out of the four pilots we called in for interviews performed very poorly. Each one had a 'specific deficiency' (poor understanding of aerodynamics, poor communication skills, etc.) But those three applicants all had the same problem; they thought that having a piece of plastic in their wallet made them a CFI.

 

The examples you listed (poor navigation, wind reading, and chart reading) are all examples of a personality problem. It's not hard to tell when you suck at something; a good pilot recognizes their weak spots and improves on it.

 

When I was in flight school, I saw that poor personality was the #1 deficiency. And looking at it from the other side, it still is.

[Spike]

As for, "I passed my BFR"! Its a f*cking expression, get over it! Damn! The things you people choose to focus on!

Of course if we continue studying we'll improve, but I was looking for more specific examples of deficiency, like; "A lot of our new hires can't navigate for sh*t without a GPS" (as someone already mentioned), or "The new guys here are terrible at reading the wind outside of an airport environment".

 

 

Remember when I said you’ll get what you deserve? Here is comes….

 

If you believe you should be concerned about entry level pilots and their lacking in aeronautical knowledge, you should think again. Above are the 2 statements you’ve made today. Regardless of the anonymous nature of the internet, these statements are an expression of your personality. More specifically, an expression of your attitude toward yourself, and this business. Simply put, forget about questions some low-time CFI presents you during a fight review. What about the questions during a job interview? Beyond the first stages of this career, job interviewers become a lot more in tune with an overall attitude. That is, they are more like an FBI Profiler than a CP at Joe Schmo Helicopter Company… Therefore, you should forget about concerning yourself with “lacking knowledge” questions and try to work on interpersonal communication techniques because this is where you are obviously “lacking” and surly wouldn’t get past your first interview…..

 

[pilot#476398]

 

It may seem broad, but when a new pilot thinks they know everything, that is a specific deficiency. And, unfortunately, it's a deficiency that a lot of experienced pilots have as well.

 

About a year ago we had to hire a new instructor. Three out of the four pilots we called in for interviews performed very poorly. Each one had a 'specific deficiency' (poor understanding of aerodynamics, poor communication skills, etc.) But those three applicants all had the same problem; they thought that having a piece of plastic in their wallet made them a CFI.

 

The examples you listed (poor navigation, wind reading, and chart reading) are all examples of a personality problem. It's not hard to tell when you suck at something; a good pilot recognizes their weak spots and improves on it.

 

When I was in flight school, I saw that poor personality was the #1 deficiency. And looking at it from the other side, it still is.

 

I remember reading a post a while ago about a company not wanting to hire cfis from a particular school because they seemed to have the "know-it-all" attitude. I know that in my last interview that it seemed like my attempts to lighten the mood through subtle humor most likely came across as a lack of confidence, so I guess we all have some type of deficiency to deal with?

[avbug]

A Flight Review (it's not a BFR) can most certainly be "failed". If you cannot properly demonstrate the knowledge and airmanship, the CFI is not obligated to sign you off.

 

 

You're not a flight instructor, are you? If you were, you would know better.

 

If I give you a flight review, I'm under no obligation to provide you with an endorsement showing satisfactory completion of the review, until I'm satisfied that the review has been completed. It's not pass or fail. You won't find an endorsement in your logbook showing a "failed" flight review. There's no such provision in the regulation, or in any guidance for the flight review.

 

It's a training exercise, with a minimum ground and minimum flight time requirement.

 

There is no maximum specified.

 

It appears that you weren't up to speed, hence you received additional training. I wouldn't have endorsed someone with your attitude, either.

[pilot#476398]

 

 

Remember when I said you’ll get what you deserve? Here is comes….

 

If you believe you should be concerned about entry level pilots and their lacking in aeronautical knowledge, you should think again. Above are the 2 statements you’ve made today. Regardless of the anonymous nature of the internet, these statements are an expression of your personality. More specifically, an expression of your attitude toward yourself, and this business. Simply put, forget about questions some low-time CFI presents you during a fight review. What about the questions during a job interview? Beyond the first stages of this career, job interviewers become a lot more in tune with an overall attitude. That is, they are more like an FBI Profiler than a CP at Joe Schmo Helicopter Company… Therefore, you should forget about concerning yourself with “lacking knowledge” questions and try to work on interpersonal communication techniques because this is where you are obviously “lacking” and surly wouldn’t get past your first interview…..

 

 

Actually my flight reviews have all been with mid to high time cfis, who have flown in the real world. As for job interviews, I can see your point (I think) since in my last one he didn't ask me a thing about aviation, just the basic questions, "Where do you see yourself in 5 years? Why should we hire you? Why do you want to work for us? What types of jobs have you done in the past?", etc...

 

Now if your problem with me is my use of certain "colorful metaphors", then, well, there's nothing I can really say, since I've never understood some people's irrational fear of certain words! And if you really think I use words like f**k and sh*t during a job interview (or even on the job for that matter) then, well...?

[helonorth]

 

 

You're not a flight instructor, are you? If you were, you would know better.

 

If I give you a flight review, I'm under no obligation to provide you with an endorsement showing satisfactory completion of the review, until I'm satisfied that the review has been completed. It's not pass or fail. You won't find an endorsement in your logbook showing a "failed" flight review. There's no such provision in the regulation, or in any guidance for the flight review.

 

It's a training exercise, with a minimum ground and minimum flight time requirement.

 

There is no maximum specified.

 

It appears that you weren't up to speed, hence you received additional training. I wouldn't have endorsed someone with your attitude, either.

More silly little word games. The exact phrasing is important, until it applies to you! Thanks for the review of what a flight review is, but I think we all know what it consists of. You do love to selflessly sprinkle your vast wisdom around (or maybe you just love to hear yourself talk?). I was an instructor at one time. I instructed people with "attitudes" occasionally. Now you assume I had one of these attitudes. Probably because you just don't like me (I don't like you, either, but I generally don't like arrogant twits). But I remember being respectful and receptive to his instruction and I had very few hours. I do recall him telling me beforehand what a big favor he was doing me by doing a flight review as he normally wouldn't do them. He felt they were too much of a liability risk. It seemed he was the one sporting a little attitude? Anywho... when I instructed people with attitudes I didn't like, as long as it didn't affect the safety of flight, I kept that out of the equation. I was there to teach and evaluate based on performance, not whether I liked them or them or not. I would say that is one of the things that separates the professional instructor and the hack with a chip on his shoulder. I can see what category you fall under.

Edited June 15, 2013 by helonorth

[Spike]

Now if your problem with me is my use of certain "colorful metaphors", then, well, there's nothing I can really say, since I've never understood some people's irrational fear of certain words! And if you really think I use words like f*ck and sh*t during a job interview (or even on the job for that matter) then, well...?

 

Make no mistake. I have no fear of certain words or colorful metaphors. The reality is, I use them all the time. However, I’m on the backside of my career and don’t really need to practice “good behavior” in order to establish a good attitude…. On the internet, or anyplace else….

 

Plus, the internet provides a curtain of anonymity allowing individuals to freely express their true personality. IMO, when you say you don’t curse during job interviews, then I can only assume you are a phony……. Phony punks have no place in this business because they eventually turn into a** kissing, egotistical maniacs culminating into a Hazardous Attitude…..

 

Edited June 15, 2013 by Spike

[JDHelicopterPilot]

I didn't know a BFR was Pass/Fail now!

 

It always was, sorta. Instead of "failing" the pilot just continues to receive additional instruction until the instructor is ready to sign them off. As a result it is easy to say it is pass/fail. A pilot really just receives training until they are at the standard they should be. Edited June 15, 2013 by JDHelicopterPilot

[Mikemv]

JD,

 

How you doing buddy?

 

Actually, it was never a pass or fail. It is either a "satisfactorily completed" or no entry at all.

 

The pilot does not require any further instruction by regs but can no longer fly as PIC once the original 24 months is up. If the original 24 months is not up, they could go fly and brush up on their short comings.

 

They could go to another CFI and satisfactorily complete a flight review.

 

Now if they did not get signed off by the first CFI, they should probably do some studying, brush up, get some flight instruction, etc. but it is not required.

 

Best wishes to you and family,

 

Mike

[Spike]

Basically, it’s not what happens beyond the 24th month, it’s what happens before the 24th month.

 

If a pilot seeking a Flight Review, say, 2 months prior to his 24th month, and the CFI conducting the Fight Review had the authority to “fail” the pilot, he’d lose his PIC privileges until he “passed” regardless of the timeframe which makes no sense…. IF 2 months prior, the pilot doesn’t receive the Flight Review endorsement, he can continue to act as PIC and subsequently iron out his deficiencies, with or without a CFI, up until the end of his Flight Review expiration date or, until he receives the endorsement…….

 

In any case, the Flight Review regulation is geared toward the “occasional” or “returning” certificated pilot……

[Counterrotate]

Removed

Edited June 15, 2013 by Counterrotate

[Spike]

Another train wreck thread on the VR forum...

 

Is there any other kind?

[pilot#476398]

 

Make no mistake. I have no fear of certain words or colorful metaphors. The reality is, I use them all the time. However, I’m on the backside of my career and don’t really need to practice “good behavior” in order to establish a good attitude…. On the internet, or anyplace else….

 

Plus, the internet provides a curtain of anonymity allowing individuals to freely express their true personality. IMO, when you say you don’t curse during job interviews, then I can only assume you are a phony……. Phony punks have no place in this business because they eventually turn into a** kissing, egotistical maniacs culminating into a Hazardous Attitude…..

 

 

Behaving differently in my personal life than in my professional one makes me a phoney? f**k'n aye!

[Counterrotate]

 

Behaving differently in my personal life than in my professional one makes me a phoney? f*ck'n aye!

It does. If you cannot behave well in your personal life, what makes us think you can behave well in your professional life? The personal inevitably bleeds into the professional.

[Spike]

It does. If you cannot behave well in your personal life, what makes us think you can behave well in your professional life? The personal inevitably bleeds into the professional.

 

Totally agree….

 

And, posting on the internet is not considered “personal”. Its public…..