Logging Experience as Pilot-in-Command

[zVo]

Hopefully some of you with a good handle on the FARs can help clarify logging military hours as PIC flight time in a personal ["civilian"] logbook.

 

1. Since I joined the Army as an already-rated FAA rotorcraft pilot, would the flight time I acquired in IERW be loggable as PIC time? As a sole manipulator of the controls from the PC's crew station (TH-67/B206 is a single pilot certified aircraft), I would think it would be. Am I missing something?

 

2. Now this question is a little more in-depth as it builds on the previous question. During my time in FSXXI getting trained on the UH-60A/M, is any of that time loggable as PIC time because of my FAA ratings?

 

FAR 61.51(e) says, that a private or commercial pilot “may log pilot-in-command flight time for flights … [w]hen the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated,” or “[w]hen the pilot … acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.”

 

Now let's say I can log that time where I was the sole manipulator of the controls. Since, during training, I probably was on the controls over 90% of the time, what is a fair way of logging that time?

 

Furthermore, FAR 61.51(e) also permits logging PIC time from the SIC's seat “[w]hen the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided (A) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial … pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate; ( The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command is undergoing an approved pilot-in-command training program…; © The supervising pilot in command holds … (1) A commercial pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate, and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; and

(D) The supervising pilot in command logs the pilot-in-command training in the pilot’s logbook, certifies the pilot-in-command training in the pilot’s logbook, and attests to the certification with his or her signature, and flight instructor certificate number.”

 

Now this part is confusing to me because it seems like it would apply if the FAR mentioned previous to this didn't apply, but since the PC and PI stations in the UH-60 can be interchangeable (and the training for the student in FSXII is done from the normal PC station), is this FAR (1) relevant and (2) since the instructor is a military-rated IP -- and let's assume he didn't get his civilian CFI equivalency rating -- would he have to endorse my logbook to make it legal?

 

I've been at my unit for awhile now and am wanting to track my hours very closely since I want to get the new restricted ATP (only 750 hours TT for military aviators). Most of the guys have little to no clue about the FARs, so I'm hoping maybe someone here has some input into how to log time as a -60 aviator. I was chatting with Lindsey earlier and we agreed that question #1 was loggable as PIC, but with #2, we couldn't come to a definitive answer. Maybe someone else has some input.

 

Thanks!

[Lindsey]

I know stearmann4 would know the answer to this; hopefully he sees it.

[Joe_P148]

Most people just log it as Pilot in command time it's really up to you as your civilian book has now regulating authority. There is some debate over it even between SIP's DES ect.. I'd suggest logging it the way you feel is correct. Oh and I don't know what unit you are in but in my unit we discussed FARs regularly.

[Joe_P148]

Also to note some civilian employers will probably ask for you DA 759 so they can review your military experience.

[zVo]

We discuss the FARs as well, but when it comes to rating requirements and logging time, a good number of the guys are disinterested since they never got their FAA military comp. ratings (nor do they plan to... odd, I know).

 

I guess the 'logging it as I feel is correct' has me torn since I don't feel it is right for me to log the entire flight as PIC if I was on the controls for 50% of the flight. Interesting though -- for simplicity's sake, I understand why guys log it all.

Edited July 28, 2013 by zVo

[Velocity173]

On the first question yes, no doubt since you hold a helicopter rating your good to log PIC whenever you're the sole manipulator of the controls.

 

Second question is a little more gray though. It's not because of 61.51 (E) but 61.31 A (3). The UH-60 does have a type rating and unless you have a civilian type rating then you can't log it in your civilian logs. Obviously in the Army we don't have that requirement so it doesn't matter if you have a type rating to log PC. Of course for your -12 it's briefed, acting PC and not sole manipulator of the controls.

 

The final part of 61.51 would be hard to prove also. Are you acting as a PC under an approved PC program with an IP with a certificate number? Well the only part of that requirement would most likely be training under an approved PC program. It would be hard to distinguish if you were actually performing the duties as a PC when the guy (IP/PC) in the left seat is the one briefed for it. There are plenty of times though where we say "I want you to pretend you're PC today." Finally, odds of having an IP next to you with a CFI certificate number might be hard to find.

 

You'll see a lot of people logging total time heavy in their civilian logbooks because of the difference in the FAR definition of flight time and the Army's. Unless you do a serious amount of ground taxiing out for take off, the difference in time is maybe 0.1 per flight.

Edited July 28, 2013 by Velocity173

[d10]

I would agree that #1 is loggable as PIC time. Not because it's a single pilot aircraft, but because there's no Bell 206 type rating. Your FAA license qualifies you to fly it. So any time logged as sole manipulator of the controls = FAA PIC time under 61.51(e)(1)(i).

 

I would say no to #2. You're not rated in the UH-60 yet and it's an aircraft that requires a type rating, so (e)(1)(i) doesn't apply. And if that doesn't apply, you can't justify it under (e)(1)(iii) either. How are you justifying that you're "acting as pilot in command" when you're not the briefed pilot in command for the flight and we've already determined that being the sole manipulator of the controls isn't good enough in a UH-60? I'm assuming the confusion comes in because a lot of people equate being the sole manipulator of controls with acting as a PIC, and throughout most of your career it will be, so it's probably important to point out that this definition doesn't apply for a student pilot in a UH-60.

[Velocity173]

Just to clarify. Personally I only logged PIC in my civilian logbooks where I was acting as PIC IAW 61.51. I really don't think it would be a big deal if you logged it as sole manipulator of the controls though. However, an employer might see the disparity between your 759 and your logbook and might hold more weight on the 759. Mine specifically asked if my PC time was briefed, acting as PC time. Yep, all of it.

[Velocity173]

Hey there is another thread on the UH-60 type rating. Ask this guy FAADPE1604@aol.com and I'm sure he'll have a good answer for ya. I flew Hawks mostly before the April 11, 2011 type rating designation so it's not as muddy for me. Like to hear what he says so if you email him let us know what's up. Good luck.

Edited July 28, 2013 by Velocity173

[zVo]

Thanks for the responses guys -- very informative.

I plan to share this with the guys at my unit should this inevitably come up again in the future.

 

Per the -12, agreed, logging PIC time is an especially gray area for PIs as it depends on how you interpret the regs. As far as the time spent at Rucker in the -60, I agree, d10, that it would be very hard to justify (i.e. don't log it as PIC) that time as an unrated member in a rated aircraft.

 

That being said, I managed to get an S-70 type rating added to my FAA certificate after my time at Rucker. Now if I'm understanding the regs correctly, my flights post-type rating in the UH-60 are loggable PIC but as acting PC or for the time where I'm the sole manipulator of the controls? I agree with you, Velocity, that the disparity between your logbook and the 759's closeout of PC time might take some explaining to employers since the numbers won't mesh.

E-mailing a DPE is scary... but I'll do it.

[d10]

You don't need the S-70 rating. You're rated in the UH-60 after you pass your final checkride and you receive orders from the Army stating you're rated in the UH-60. At that point you can log PIC when you're logging PC by Army standards, and also when you're the PI but you're the sole manipulator of the controls. Yes, this means if the PI flies the entire flight, you can both go to your civilian logbooks after the flight and legally log PIC time.

 

As far as civilian employers are concerned, some will accept your civilian logbook without question, some will question the disparity but be OK with it if you can justify it using the FARs, some will rule you out of consideration if you report anything other than what your 759 shows. If you have enough hours to meet the minimum requirements with your 759 it's a lot easier and safer to just use that. But if you need to log by the FARs to meet the requirements you should have a logbook that reflects those hours and be confident in its legality.

[UH60L-IP]

Here's what I did, and continue to do for my FAA logbook.

 

TH-67 - As a commercial pilot, I was already rated to fly it. I didn't care what the IP wrote on the military -12, I logged my PC time in my book. Other than the fact that I had to go through the Army's FSXXI course, nothing in the regs ever said I had to have an IP with me. I could legally fly it the day before I arrived at flight school. There was no reason I couldn't now. That seems easy for me to justify to any outside employer.

 

UH-60 - I was not yet rated in the aircraft. During the course I logged it all as PI (SIC) time.

 

At the end of the course I was rated in the UH-60. By definition, I could then log my time at the controls as PC (PIC). However, I still did not. Here's my justification.

 

In the military we are pretty specific about who is in command of that aircraft. It is briefed that way before the flight, the flight is approved that way, the crew knows who the PC is, and the PI darn sure knows who the PC is. Regardless of who is on the controls, the military has a very strict measurement by which to define the PC and PI. Much more so than the civilian sector.

 

When I am briefed as the PC, I log the entire flight as PC regardless of who is on the controls. When I am briefed as the PI (even though I am a rated PC), I log the entire flight as PI. My flight log now matches my 759 (at least for my primary aircraft) very nicely and neatly. I find this easy to justify to any potential employer as I can explain (if they don't already know) the relationship between PC and PI in the military.

 

I know that we all want to log a bunch of multi-engine PC time. Truth is, you (hopefully) won't be a PI forever. Your SIC time will be lopsided for awhile but soon enough your PC time will come right back up.

 

While the way I do things may not match up perfectly with the FAA regs, the fact of the matter is that the FAA regs weren't really written with military pilots in mind. There is no absolute correlation to find so don't try. I do try to match the intent as closely as possible though and this is the best that I have been able to come up with.

[Velocity173]

Good explaination above and that's exactly how I logged it as well. As I said, an employer might look at it. In my case they looked at nothing (other than resume). Everyone of my friends who were hired said the same thing. Apparently they figure since you're coming from the Army it's a given that you meet their requirements. Be prepared to show proof though.

[2ndGen]

It seems that everyone agrees that you can log the TH-67 as PIC time, someone correct me, but I was under the impression that if an aircraft (not sure about rotorcraft) has a turbine engine it requires a type rating.

[Cantankerously]

It seems that everyone agrees that you can log the TH-67 as PIC time, someone correct me, but I was under the impression that if an aircraft (not sure about rotorcraft) has a turbine engine it requires a type rating.

Type rating is only required with aircraft with a maximum weight of 12,500 lb and over, regardless of engine type.

[WaterRooster]

It seems that everyone agrees that you can log the TH-67 as PIC time, someone correct me, but I was under the impression that if an aircraft (not sure about rotorcraft) has a turbine engine it requires a type rating.

You can log turbine time for the 67 as well. If you have no helicopter ratings like me, I was logging turbine, rotorcraft, single engine and dual received. P2 checkride was logged as all the above except dual recieved was PIC for 1.0

[Velocity173]

It seems that everyone agrees that you can log the TH-67 as PIC time, someone correct me, but I was under the impression that if an aircraft (not sure about rotorcraft) has a turbine engine it requires a type rating.

Turbojet Airplanes. A Piper Meridian or King Air C-90-no type rating. A Cessna Citation or Lear Jet-type rating required.

Edited July 31, 2013 by Velocity173

[Ardo09203]

What about guys that have no civilian ratings, do they log it all as dual instruction?

[Lindsey]

What about guys that have no civilian ratings, do they log it all as dual instruction?

Dual received.

[Velocity173]

Oh yeah, if you're flying civ outside the mil don't waste 100 bucks getting a class 3 physical out in town. You can use your annual Army flight physical (4186) for that. Used to be you had to get a separate FAA phys.

[Joe_P148]

I'm really wondering though, if you need the PC hours that bad that your scraping by use your TH-67 hours as PC. Maby your not ready to be a PC in a civillan aircraft. Lets be honest, are you in command of the aircraft? No not really. Are you making decisions? Planing flights? Maby.

 

Honestly though, your not a PC in a Helicopter except for mabye lidnsey, so take it upon yourself to log as you like. You can have thousands of hours as a PC but when the rubber hits the road the only thing that matters is how you perform on a check ride with a perspective employer.

 

I know plently of people who have even cooked the books on thier log books to get an edge on the competition for employment. It's not about the number of hours you have it is about the type of hours and the type of flying you were doing when you logged them.

 

A 1,000 hrs of combat time in a UH-60 could be VIP missions to airfields or it could be complex air assaults into heavy dust under goggles. Hours don't make the pilot, IMHO.

[SBuzzkill]

If there is someone next to me designated as the pilot in command I am not logging PIC time. You can't have two pilots in command and the Army makes it very clear through the risk assessment, the 175, the logbook, etc. who is the pilot in command.

 

I really don't think the 40 hours or whatever in the TH-67 is going to make a difference, and I wasn't eligible to get a commercial cert anyway until I got my wings so I don't even worry about that. f**k if I go to an interview and can't make minimums but haven't been shady about my logging well at least I will sleep at night.

Edited July 31, 2013 by SBuzzkill

[UH60L-IP]

I'm really wondering though, if you need the PC hours that bad that your scraping by use your TH-67 hours as PC. Maby your not ready to be a PC in a civillan aircraft. Lets be honest, are you in command of the aircraft? No not really. Are you making decisions? Planing flights? Maby.

 

I don't think that is the reasoning at all. People coming into the Army as already rated pilots log PIC time for it in their personal logbooks even though they are sitting next to a Rucker IP because that most closely matches the civilian standard.

 

Think about it. Civilian trained pilots log PIC time the moment after they get their Private, including all that commercial, instrument, and CFI train up time that they are doing with a civilian CFI sitting next to them, not just when they are flying solo. Who is really the pilot in command? Who is really making the decisions? The student "commercial" pilot or the CFI that's getting paid?

 

Students at Rucker are not likely trying to pad their logbooks with PIC turbine time. That's what some less than honest people do that are trying to get that next job. The military student is already earning a paycheck for flying a turbine aircraft. That kinda takes away the incentive to pad a book.

 

It is totally legitimate for an already rated pilot to log PC time in their personal logbook when flying a TH-67 with a Rucker IP. That's what civilian trained pilots do because that's what the FARs say to do. I'm not sure why Army students should do differently. It's a good way to maintain consistency.

 

It's not about the number of hours you have it is about the type of hours and the type of flying you were doing when you logged them.

 

A 1,000 hrs of combat time in a UH-60 could be VIP missions to airfields or it could be complex air assaults into heavy dust under goggles. Hours don't make the pilot, IMHO.

 

While I can agree with you that hours don't make the pilot, it is about the only measure that anyone has to quantify you as a pilot unless they have personal knowledge of you. Fair or not, that's why companies publish hiring minimums almost entirely by hours and not whether you have flown air assaults instead of resupply. It is why a 2,000 hour pilot is almost always going to be considered before the 1,000 hour pilot and the 3,000 hour pilot will be considered before the 2,000 hour pilot. Hours may not matter to you or even to me personally but they do very much matter.

[d10]

If there is someone next to me designated as the pilot in command I am not logging PIC time. You can't have two pilots in command and the Army makes it very clear through the risk assessment, the 175, the logbook, etc. who is the pilot in command.

 

I really don't think the 40 hours or whatever in the TH-67 is going to make a difference, and I wasn't eligible to get a commercial cert anyway until I got my wings so I don't even worry about that. f*ck if I go to an interview and can't make minimums but haven't been shady about my logging well at least I will sleep at night.

 

According to FAR 61.51, you can have two pilots logging PIC for the same flight. There's nothing shady about it, it's very black and white. You wouldn't claim PC hours for that in the Army because it's safe to assume that everyone in the Army is using AR 95-1 as the standard for logging time. But if you're dealing with someone who likely defines PIC time IAW FAR 61.51, it makes sense to report your hours IAW that standard.

[aeroscout]

 

According to FAR 61.51, you can have two pilots logging PIC for the same flight. There's nothing shady about it, it's very black and white. You wouldn't claim PC hours for that in the Army because it's safe to assume that everyone in the Army is using AR 95-1 as the standard for logging time. But if you're dealing with someone who likely defines PIC time IAW FAR 61.51, it makes sense to report your hours IAW that standard.

What If you have a PIC being trained by a UT, who is being evaluated by an IP, who is being evaluated by an SIP, all on the same flight ? I believe I already know the answer, but for discussion's sake.