Logging Experience as Pilot-in-Command

[iChris]

Hopefully some of you with a good handle on the FARs can help clarify logging military hours as PIC flight time in a personal ["civilian"] logbook.

 

 

2. Now this question is a little more in-depth as it builds on the previous question. During my time in FSXXI getting trained on the UH-60A/M, is any of that time loggable as PIC time because of my FAA ratings?

 

 

 

A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges.

 

The key is rated or has privileges. Unless you've passed a pilot proficiency check (rated military pilot) or equivalent in the UH-60 the FAA doesn’t consider it PIC.

 

 

Legal Interpretations & Chief Counsel's Opinions

[Velocity173]

What If you have a PIC being trained by a UT, who is being evaluated by an IP, who is being evaluated by an SIP, all on the same flight ? I believe I already know the answer, but for discussion's sake.

Army logging it's all about who's briefed as PC. That's only going to be one person and that person has to be at the controls. The IP or SP in the back can log that time but not considered PC for the flight. Most likely the Cdr isn't going to brief the PC up front because they are undergoing training. So the PC while with the UT up front will have to log PI. Although not sure what valuable training a UT could offer a qualified PC while needing an IP and SP in the back.

 

Logging civilian logbooks. The UT can log the whole thing because they are acting as PC for the flight. The PI can log PC in their logbook during the time they were the sole manipulator of the controls.

 

You can bet most SPs and IPs aren't going back and annotating which flights they did as a PC and which ones weren't. I never did any from the back so it all counts as PC. Don't like doing evals from the back seat.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Velocity173

[zVo]

I never did any from the back so it all counts as PC.

 

This actually came up today at work and I had a few questions about this.

I was told that I could log CP/SIC time as a back-seater if the following conditions were met:

1. PC was an IP performing IP duties
2. Rated crewmember in the backseat was acting as a crewmember in a crew chief's station

Is this really loggable time? It seems a little sketchy to me from the perspective that I am not occupying a station with access to the controls. The guys at work thought it was a perfectly fine to log in their civilian logbooks, though nobody could articulate the which FAR authorizes this. Any ideas?

[Velocity173]

 

This actually came up today at work and I had a few questions about this.

I was told that I could log CP/SIC time as a back-seater if the following conditions were met:

1. PC was an IP performing IP duties
2. Rated crewmember in the backseat was acting as a crewmember in a crew chief's station

Is this really loggable time? It seems a little sketchy to me from the perspective that I am not occupying a station with access to the controls. The guys at work thought it was a perfectly fine to log in their civilian logbooks, though nobody could articulate the which FAR authorizes this. Any ideas?

LOL! You guys are getting pretty desperate these days if you're resorting to logging CP time to build hours!

 

4–22. Copilot The copilot (CP), will assist in the performance of tasks as directed by the PC and is an aviator who— a. Is at a crew station with access to the flight controls but is not qualified or current in the aircraft being flown. b. Is at a crew station without access to the flight controls and performing crewmember duties required for the mission. c. Is performing copilot duties at other than a flight crew station and is undergoing training or evaluation conducted by an IP, SP, IE, UT, or ME.

 

a-Isn't going to apply to you.

b-Might apply to you but is it truly required for the mission?

c-Could apply but what are the odds?

 

While they can log it for Army stuff (still pretty weak) they're getting it confused with SIC time. It is not SIC time. SIC is for some guy flying in a type rated aircraft that requires more than one crewmember. That means the First Officer at the controls. This is essentially our PI time in the Army not some dude in the back like a flight engineer.

 

They're also a bunch of requirements in FAR 61.55 that pertain to SIC qualifications that don't mirror Army AR 95-1, ATM or 411 stuff.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Velocity173

[d10]

There's no FAR that authorizes that as SIC time. You can log it as CP time IAW AR 95-1 though. You don't even need an IP on board, as long as you're performing duties required for the flight (a lot of guys will do a fuel check but technically maintaining airspace surveillance should qualify as well).

[eagle5]

 

This actually came up today at work and I had a few questions about this.

I was told that I could log CP/SIC time as a back-seater if the following conditions were met:

1. PC was an IP performing IP duties
2. Rated crewmember in the backseat was acting as a crewmember in a crew chief's station

Is this really loggable time? It seems a little sketchy to me from the perspective that I am not occupying a station with access to the controls. The guys at work thought it was a perfectly fine to log in their civilian logbooks, though nobody could articulate the which FAR authorizes this. Any ideas?

 

What good is SIC time in a civilian logbook?

 

I've only seen a handful of job posts for SIC and they all required a butt-load of PIC time! I've never seen a job ad that required previous SIC time?

[Velocity173]

 

What good is SIC time in a civilian logbook?

 

I've only seen a handful of job posts for SIC and they all required a butt-load of PIC time! I've never seen a job ad that required previous SIC time?

Well if these guys are logging (incorrectly) CP time as SIC time in their civilian logbooks, that will help to get the 2,000 hrs TT that most companies require. Combine that with logging PIC (sole manipulator) while only briefed as a PI, that will get them closer to the 1,000 hr PIC requirement.

 

If an employer is smart they wouldn't even look at an Army Aviator's civilian logbook. I'd look at their last 759 and that's it. Also, who knows how much they padded those hours because of the minor difference in the Army definition of flight time compared to the FAA's.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Velocity173

[zVo]

Well if these guys are logging (incorrectly) CP time as SIC time in their civilian logbooks, that will help to get the 2,000 hrs TT that most companies require. Combine that with logging PIC (sole manipulator) while only briefed as a PI, that will get them closer to the 1,000 hr PIC requirement.

 

If an employer is smart they wouldn't even look at an Army Aviator's civilian logbook. I'd look at their last 759 and that's it. Also, who knows how much they padded those hours because of the minor difference in the Army definition of flight time compared to the FAA's.

Exactly what's going on -- and yeah, with guys getting passed over on the first look for CW3 with even more cuts coming in FY 14, they're getting desperate.

 

I understood CP might be loggable (as you stated, it's weak) for the Army, but logging it as civilian time? As you said, "SIC" resembles PI time. I was wondering how they were justifying logging it toward civilian flight time since I've never heard of backseat time except with a few very specific instances.

[eagle5]

Well if these guys are logging (incorrectly) CP time as SIC time in their civilian logbooks, that will help to get the 2,000 hrs TT that most companies require. Combine that with logging PIC (sole manipulator) while only briefed as a PI, that will get them closer to the 1,000 hr PIC requirement.

 

If an employer is smart they wouldn't even look at an Army Aviator's civilian logbook. I'd look at their last 759 and that's it. Also, who knows how much they padded those hours because of the minor difference in the Army definition of flight time compared to the FAA's.

 

So this is "Fudging the Logbook...Part 2" then?

[Lindsey]

 

So this is "Fudging the Logbook...Part 2" then?

Nope. This ain't the General forum.

[eagle5]

Nope. This ain't the General forum.

 

Too bad, that was a fun ride!

[Velocity173]

 

So this is "Fudging the Logbook...Part 2" then?

No, I'm not saying this is an epidemic in the Army but just like in the civilian world, you're gonna have those who aren't very discerning in their logging practices.

[Velocity173]

Exactly what's going on -- and yeah, with guys getting passed over on the first look for CW3 with even more cuts coming in FY 14, they're getting desperate.

 

I understood CP might be loggable (as you stated, it's weak) for the Army, but logging it as civilian time? As you said, "SIC" resembles PI time. I was wondering how they were justifying logging it toward civilian flight time since I've never heard of backseat time except with a few very specific instances.

Yeah I might be retired but I still keep in contact with my active friends. I know what's going on.

 

I don't know what extent this CP stuff is but it can create problems elsewhere as well. Say a guy is up for PC and needs more time to meet the mins. Oh he's got the 300 hrs now but 50 of it is CP time. Then you have risk assessment issues also. Yeah I've got greater than 500 hrs but 100 of it is CP time.

 

Only time I logged CP was flight school. That's only because the IP does the -12. After that there is no need. A CP in the back is not REQUIRED for the mission. Odds of getting instruction in the back from an IP is pretty slim as well.

 

When it comes down to it it's what your CDR briefs. CP is a briefed position and is required to be annotated on the mission brief sheet. If your CDR supports the use of pilots in the back logging CP, oh well, so be it.

[WaterRooster]

So with all the talk of logging time it being up something i was thinking of. How do you log your BI and AI time during training? I believe the full motions Sims are Class 3? So those should be log-able hours. All the non motion I believe would just be sim or hood time? I'm a Fixed wing commercial pilot, so I am just looking at the overall number of hours that I am able to take out of this and put in a civilian logbook so that the magic number of 750 gets closer Any ideas?.

[CharyouTree]

A CP in the back is not REQUIRED for the mission. Odds of getting instruction in the back from an IP is pretty slim as well.

 

In the guard/my unit, it can be difficult to get a 3rd crew member for NVG flights (100% required, with the exception of Rucker, and possibly EAATS). Get another PI to split time with (particularly if it's two guys in RL progression) and now you've got an IP, performing IP duties, and a rated guy doing a required job in the back.

 

I personally prefer to have an RL1 CE in the back than an RL 3 PI but you take what you can get sometimes.

[Velocity173]

In the guard/my unit, it can be difficult to get a 3rd crew member for NVG flights (100% required, with the exception of Rucker, and possibly EAATS). Get another PI to split time with (particularly if it's two guys in RL progression) and now you've got an IP, performing IP duties, and a rated guy doing a required job in the back.

 

I personally prefer to have an RL1 CE in the back than an RL 3 PI but you take what you can get sometimes.

I agree, there are rare times when you can't find a CE and a pilot can fill in the back.

 

Personally if I was going out flying instruments I could care less about having anyone in the back. All they did was sleep anyway. What used to laugh at was at Rucker I could take students out all night long with no one in the back. In regular units that's almost unheard of.

 

Like I said though its about what the CDR briefs. If the CP thing was becoming a trend and not required because of excess CEs, then they should shutdown that practice immediately. Let's face it. The term copilot (CP) can easily be mistaken by civilians looking at a 759 as being a SIC position when indeed it is NOT. Sitting in the back and performing fuel checks and scanning for traffic should have nothing to do with total flight time. I suppose when it comes down to it it's all about integrity.

[stearmann4]

I know stearmann4 would know the answer to this; hopefully he sees it.

Sorry for the delay, just getting my feet on the ground after returning from OEF. The Pt 91 PIC definition vs AR 95-1 has never fit into a nice neat hole The short version, if you're already a rated rotorcraft pilot when you're in flight school, then you can log PIC (in your personal logbook) through primary and instruments. When you get to the advanced aircraft (all but the OH-58D) common sense would dictate that you log dual received through your FS21 or AQC. The day you graduate from your course is the equivalent of if you went through a civilian type rating COI. You don't need the type rating to log PIC.

 

It gets gray when you log PIC because you're on the controls, but you aren't the Army-recognized PC of the aircraft. Continue to log PIC time IAW Pt 91, and most guys I know also "double dip" and log PIC time when they are actually the briefed PC of the aircraft. I've never seen an employer have an issue with that logging process as they know it's apples to oranges.

 

The best advice I can give is to start and maintain a civilian logbook. Not only will it alleviate you of trying to transfer 20 years of Army flying into a FAA digestible format, it's save your bacon several tikes over when the electronic aircraft logbooks crash and you et an email saying you didn't make your semi-annual minimums.

 

I'm on the way to Rucker in a few days for the WO Staff Course, I'll be there for a month, feel free to look me up if I can be of assistance.

 

Mike-

[av8rnik]

PM sent Mike.

[01CelicaGTS]

Bringing this thread back to life.

 

I think I've figured out how I'm going to log all of my time based on the info in this and other threads discussing this issue since I'm already rated (PIC and Dual Received through instruments, and dual recieved through advanced). However, most of my friends are not previously rated, and they are trying to start their logbooks. I was originally thinking they would log dual received until graduating. However, some of the IPs are not Civilian CFIs.

 

So, if the IP is not an FAA Certified CFI, can the student log dual received? FAR 61.51 states that training time can be logged when receiving training from an "authorized instructor." It also states that the CFI must sign it with their certificate number among other things.

 

Or, does it not really matter since they are not using the logged flight time to "apply for a certificate or rating" or "satisfy recenct flight experience requirements" which is what that section is referring to.

[brackac]

I have a helicopter wallpaper picture on my computer, so I log every work day as PC time.

[Bootcamp]

So, if the IP is not an FAA Certified CFI, can the student log dual received? FAR 61.51 states that training time can be logged when receiving training from an "authorized instructor." It also states that the CFI must sign it with their certificate number among other things.

 

I posed this question to my examiner during my CFII/ATP checkrides last week. He told me that since my logbook could be easily verified against military records, that if I came to him with a bunch of logbook entries from Primary/Instrument/BWS that were logged as "Dual-Received" and simply had the instructor's name followed by "URS, Unable to sign", that it would be good enough for a checkride.

 

That being said, I am logging everything as PIC and Dual-Received.

[Joe_P148]

 

I posed this question to my examiner during my CFII/ATP checkrides last week. He told me that since my logbook could be easily verified against military records, that if I came to him with a bunch of logbook entries from Primary/Instrument/BWS that were logged as "Dual-Received" and simply had the instructor's name followed by "URS, Unable to sign", that it would be good enough for a checkride.

 

That being said, I am logging everything as PIC and Dual-Received.

Well I don't know why you would do that but ok.

 

Your not a PC in the Army so when your DA 759 doesn't reflect your logbook you can use the above paragraph to explain yourself I suppose. The verbage of the PIC log book definition does not meet what PILOT IN COMMAND actually means. You were not a PIC in primary, instruments or BWS.

[Bootcamp]

Well I don't know why you would do that but ok.

 

Your not a PC in the Army so when your DA 759 doesn't reflect your logbook you can use the above paragraph to explain yourself I suppose. The verbage of the PIC log book definition does not meet what PILOT IN COMMAND actually means. You were not a PIC in primary, instruments or BWS.

 

I asked because I have a few students in IERW with me that are looking to take their ASEL commercial and instrument rating checkrides and want to credit their military hours towards their ASEL ratings.

Regarding logging time as PIC, according to 61.51(e)(1):

A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights -

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or as sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

Since I am an ATP and I am rated in Rotorcraft Helicopter, I am legal to log the time that I am at the controls as PIC.

[01CelicaGTS]

Well I don't know why you would do that but ok.

 

Your not a PC in the Army so when your DA 759 doesn't reflect your logbook you can use the above paragraph to explain yourself I suppose. The verbage of the PIC log book definition does not meet what PILOT IN COMMAND actually means. You were not a PIC in primary, instruments or BWS.

 

I don't know why you wouldn't. As a rated pilot, you log PIC anytime you are sole manipulator of the controls. My instructor RARELY touched the controls in Primary, a little more in instruments. You are logging time in an FAA logbook, so I think you have to forget about what the Army designations are when you are filling in the logbook. The regs (FARs) have a definition for PIC:

 

(FAR 1.1): "the person who (1) has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight; (2) has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and (3) holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight"

 

And then there are regs regarding who can legally act as PIC in Part 61. Also, only one pilot can act as PIC during a flight.

 

However, the regs also state who can log PIC time (FAR 61.51(e)). It is clear that there can only be one PIC designated for the flight, but two or more pilots can log PIC time.

 

So you are right, we were not ACTING as PIC during primary, instruments or BWS, but that does not preclude us from logging it as PIC time in the logbook. Hell, on the civilian side, everything after Private is logged as PIC. Why would I stop logging it just because I'm in the Army?

 

Will there be a difference between the 759 and the personal logbook. YES. But there would have been a difference anyway since I had PIC time when we started Army Flight Training.

Can I explain the difference? YES. I just did. The Army definition of logging PC time does not match the FAA definition for logging PIC time. Maybe it will come back to bite me in the ass when I try to get a job in the civilian world, but I think people only say that because they are afraid to dig into the FARs and figure out the answers.

[Joe_P148]

Ok man, your not acting as the PIC and the way I see it your trying to fat pencil your logbook. Your ethics are a bit dicey...

 

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/career-questions/43740-pic-dual-received.html