Logging PIC as student pilot

[apiaguy]

Reason 224466 not to train in robinsons

[jjsemperfi]

And I appologise guys, the supervised solo stuff under 141 is just for the commercial rating. 141 Appendix D (5)C Ten hours of solo flight time in a helicopter, or 10 hours of flight time while performing the duties of pilot in command, in a helicopter with an authorized instructor on board.

[jjsemperfi]

 

Didn't do any solo flights at night during my private training. Is that new too? Also, since its technically a solo flight do you remove the other controls?

 

Plus what does the CFI do on these flights?

 

No not for private training, just commercial. But we have never, and never would send even a comm student solo at night. That's why the supervised solo reg is cool for 141. We don't take out the controls, I may be stupid, but I'm not crazy.

[jjsemperfi]

Thanks for the help gents, all questions answered.

[pilot#476398]

 

But we have never, and never would send even a comm student solo at night.

 

I did my first solo night flight at 103 hours (just checked my logbook). It was over downtown San Francisco, and a bit gusty from my remarks, and I was just a private pilot. Did about 16 more solo night hours before I got to the comm 150.

 

I'm guessing your school is in a sparsely lighted rual area, or perhaps in the mountains?

[Pohi]

I think I combined my night solo with the commercial XC. I was gone all night, stopped for fuel a few times and ate twice. I did a huge loop of the San Joaquin valley in CA.

 

I was lucky to have an ADF in the helicopter so I could listen to UFO conspiracy theories all night :-)

[Jaybee]

While I agree that a few hours of PIC here and there is nothing to get worked up about.

 

You seem to understand that you can log PIC but...

 

I personaly did not log hours as PIC in the R22 until my checkride. My DPE told me it was not dual and it was my first true rated pilot flight. My first 5 hours of R44 time even though I was a rated Pilot, were not logged as PIC, being it took having the 5 hours of transition training to gain that R44 PIC endorsement.

I plan on flying till I am old, fat and happy, or old fat, and a drunken ass which ever comes first! ;D

In those years to come I plan on logging thousands of hours of PIC and probably some SIC, and probably a few more Dual training hours for a transition or three or five along my career.

I never saw the point in scrounging for one or two or twenty hours where the PIC was really the CFI sitting next to me.

If I dont get hired over a 10-20 hr difference....theres always the next offer that realizes that wasnt really the reason.

So log hours as PIC when you truely are Pilot In Command, not a student flailing about the cabin needing desperatly to apply more under arm antiperspirant thinking they are the big dog.... ( students... Low hour pilots.....be reminded and myself included we are the heli's bitch still and she will remind us often! )

Log transition hours as dual, not PIC, or even SIC when no endorsement or type rating has been issued. Be honest, and in the long run it all works out!

 

Your reasons for doing so are completely and utterly wrong. If you are "being honest" then logging PIC for the time that you are "wiggling sticks" when you are rated for category and class IS being honest.

 

The PIC endorsement is only to Act as PIC not log it.

 

FAA Chief Counsel Opinions on the matter supporting what I am saying -

Richards letter

Speranza letter

Herman letter

 

If that was what your were taught they are wrong and if that is what you are teaching then you are wrong.

 

Implying that someone isn't honest, when in fact they are is wrong.

[aeroscout]

I think I combined my night solo with the commercial XC. I was gone all night, stopped for fuel a few times and ate twice. I did a huge loop of the San Joaquin valley in CA.

 

I was lucky to have an ADF in the helicopter so I could listen to UFO conspiracy theories all night :-)

Reminds me of the days and nights I would listen to the mighty 630am. It's a shame so many ndbs are being decommissioned.

[WolftalonID]

Like I said Jay.... Its how it was presented to me... And I agree with that perspective.

 

I cant act like a pilot, I either am one, or I am not one. Until that private rating..... It wasnt important to me to log PIC. For some it seems it is, and i teach my point of view only after the regs are discussed. Its up to the pilot to log how they see fit, and its up to me to make sure the log is legal and true before my signature is added to the entry. If they claim PIC as the regs allow, then I can't argue. If they hold out, its their call.

 

As far as an endorsement for PIC in a new make and model.....explain how your in command if you need an endorsement and a trainer on board to transition you to legally be rated as PIC?

That is dual my friend.

 

Its as honest as it comes.....

[Nearly Retired]

Wolftalon:

As far as an endorsement for PIC in a new make and model.....explain how your in command if you need an endorsement and a trainer on board to transition you to legally be rated as PIC?
That is dual my friend.

 

You don't need to be rated PIC to log PIC.

 

 

FAR 61.51

 

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

 

 

(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided...

 

 

[Jaybee]

Like I said Jay.... Its how it was presented to me... And I agree with that perspective.

 

I cant act like a pilot, I either am one, or I am not one. Until that private rating..... It wasnt important to me to log PIC. For some it seems it is, and i teach my point of view only after the regs are discussed. Its up to the pilot to log how they see fit, and its up to me to make sure the log is legal and true before my signature is added to the entry. If they claim PIC as the regs allow, then I can't argue. If they hold out, its their call.

 

As far as an endorsement for PIC in a new make and model.....explain how your in command if you need an endorsement and a trainer on board to transition you to legally be rated as PIC?

That is dual my friend.

 

Its as honest as it comes.....

 

You seem to be confused about Logging PIC as sole manipulator of the controls vs. Logging PIC as acting Pilot In Command.

 

You do not need a SFAR PIC endorsement for the Robinson aircraft to log PIC as sole manipulator of the controls if you are rated for category and class any more than you need a tailwheel endorsement to log PIC time as sole manipulator of the controls in an airplane that requires a tailwheel PIC endorsement.

 

Again, logging PIC as sole manipulator of the controls and logging PIC as acting Pilot in Command are two very different things.

[pilot#476398]

Like I said Jay.... Its how it was presented to me... And I agree with that perspective.

 

I cant act like a pilot, I either am one, or I am not one. Until that private rating..... It wasnt important to me to log PIC. For some it seems it is, and i teach my point of view only after the regs are discussed. Its up to the pilot to log how they see fit, and its up to me to make sure the log is legal and true before my signature is added to the entry. If they claim PIC as the regs allow, then I can't argue. If they hold out, its their call.

 

As far as an endorsement for PIC in a new make and model.....explain how your in command if you need an endorsement and a trainer on board to transition you to legally be rated as PIC?

That is dual my friend.

 

Its as honest as it comes.....

 

Ok so on your R44 transition you didn't log PIC, just dual, even though you were sole manipulator of the controls (I'm assuming).

 

So what if the situation were reversed. You are the CFI acting as PIC, but the other pilot is sole manipulator of the controls? Do you log that as PIC even though you never touched the controls?

[WolftalonID]

Yes I would and also dual given, being I have been endorsed as a PIC in that platform, and while on board as a CFI, giving dual instruction, I am the PIC the whole time.

 

I am not confused at all on the regs, I made my line for myself for my log book based on how I feel is true PIC for me, not based on every loophole I could find in the text.

 

The regs state what is and isnt loggable PIC hours. So my point was, I dont stress over the minute amount i logged as Dual recieved, or strictly Solo only and not PIC.

 

My log book doesnt have an "Actor" colum. It only has a PIC column, so I didn't feel it necessary to scratch in an "Actor" column so I can seperate my acting ability from my professional actions.

Edited February 20, 2014 by WolftalonID

[pilot#476398]

Yes I would and also dual given, being I have been endorsed as a PIC in that platform, and while on board as a CFI, giving dual instruction, I am the PIC the whole time.

 

I am not confused at all on the regs, I made my line for myself for my log book based on how I feel is true PIC for me, not based on every loophole I could find in the text.

 

The regs state what is and isnt loggable PIC hours. So my point was, I dont stress over the minute amount i logged as Dual recieved, or strictly Solo only and not PIC.

 

My log book doesnt have an "Actor" colum. It only has a PIC column, so I didn't feel it necessary to scratch in an "Actor" column so I can seperate my acting ability from my professional actions.

 

The logic by which you log you PIC time escapes me!

 

Be that as it may, the regulations by which the rest of us have been logging our PIC time are not loopholes!

[Jaybee]

I'd possibly buy what you are selling Wolf if you didn't keep changing your tune.

 

You started out calling people dishonest. You then question how to log PIC and then say you understand the regs. Next you claim people are using a loophole, insinuating that they are doing something wrong. Then you say some nonsensical stuff about being an actor. I'm of the very firm opinion if you truly understood logging PIC and the person who taught you did also you would not be saying such things.

 

I'm not stressed over it either, I logged PIC for wiggling the stick right next to the dual received entry. Not only was it done legally but it was done CORRECTLY.

 

You are right, at the end of the day its small potatoes. However, you seem to be preaching from a high horse and the basis of which the horse stands is rooted in a fallacy. Not only is logging PIC as a stick wiggler when rated in category, class and type rating if applicable correct and legal it is supported by the FAA Chief Counsel.

 

Sorry buddy, no sale here.

[iChris]

Question for you guys. Lets say someone was a rated fixed wing pilot and transitions to the helicopter for an add on private.

 

Why couldn't they log PIC for all flights (weather solo or not) after either their initial helicopter solo or a PIC endorsement (in Robby's)?

 

I realize we can't, but I just don't understand, and probably shouldn't try, the thought process behind this. Even though it is a different category, the pilot is proficient enough to either solo or receive a PIC endorsement, why can't they log PIC from thenceforth?

 

FAA’s original intent was that pilot-in-command time should require a pilot to have authority over the flight, and that the pilot not merely be manipulating the controls. In that respect, clarification was necessary to preserve the meaning of “pilot in command” as it is defined in §1.1

 

Pilot in command means the person who:

 

(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;

 

(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and

 

(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.

 

You can always find the “WHY” in the proposed and final rules published in the Federal Register or Recently Published Rulemaking Documents at: http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/rulemaking/recently_published/

 

Click the following link for information on rulemaking:

§11.25 How does FAA issue rules?

 

The quote below is from a 1997 final rule preamble that published the FAA’s reasoning regarding §61.51, pilot in command time.

 

 

A significant change proposed was the elimination of the distinction between the concept of acting as pilot in command and the logging of pilot-in- command time. This represented a fundamental change to a 30-year policy, and although one intent was to eliminate much confusion over the proper logging and authority over a flight, the change was directed toward reestablishing the FAA’s original intent that pilot-in-command time should require a pilot to have authority over the flight, and that the pilot not merely be manipulating the controls.

 

The FAA acknowledges there has been confusion in the past regarding the logging of pilot-in-command time by these pilots and that inconsistent policy opinions have been issued by the FAA. The FAA has determined that clarity is necessary to preserve the value of pilot-in- command time.

 

In light of the inconsistent policy opinions issued by the FAA, however, this clarification is meant to be prospective and not to require pilots to ‘‘revisit’’ past logging. The FAA’s position regarding the proper logging of pilot-in-command time for a recreational, private, or commercial pilot applicable after the effective date of this final rule is set forth in this response.

 

There are only three ways for a recreational, private, or commercial pilot to properly log pilot-in-command time in accordance with section § 61.51. These pilots may properly log pilot-in- command time:

 

(1) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated;

 

(2) when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or

 

(3) except for recreational pilots, when the pilot is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

 

See pages #16247 – #16251 (Section 61.51 - Pilot logbooks) in the reference below:

 

Final rule; request for comments. [Docket No. 25910; Amendment Nos. 1–47, 61–102, 141–8, 143–6] Federal Register / Vol. 62, No. 65 / Friday, April 4, 1997 / Rules and Regulations

 

Note, the quoted above states only three ways to log PIC; however, a forth way was add in a 2009 amendment. Here again, the FAA’s intent was published in the final rule document.

 

 

The 2009 amendment permits a pilot who is performing the duties of PIC while under the supervision of a qualified PIC to log PIC flight time. This rule is designed to allow operators to train new hires to eventually become PICs.

 

Saudi Aramco initially petitioned for the rule. Saudi Aramco wanted permission to allow new hires’ training in their Bell 214 helicopter to eventually become PICs in the company and allow logging PIC flight time while under the supervision of more experienced and senior PICs.

 

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2009-08-21/pdf/E9-19353.pdf

 

Don’t get confused by this forth way, §61.51[e][1][iv], it still requires the pilot to hold category and class for the aircraft being flown.

 

It’s intent is to allow pilots training in aircraft requiring a type rating to log PIC time while undergoing training toward obtaining a type rating and becoming fully rated.

 

§61.51[e][1][iv] when the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided—

 

[A] The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate;

Edited February 20, 2014 by iChris

[WolftalonID]

Thanks iChris that pretty much sums up why my log book is as it is.

 

I never insinuated, said, or pointed a finger at anyone about their perspective of honesty. By now you guys should have realized if that were the case I just come out and say so. I am not someones wife who never says what they mean and hope the men figure it out. f**k man that was pretty f*cking shitty to blame a guy and yes now I am saying it, you pissed me off.

 

I said what I said about how I...... Let me be f*cking clear here..... How I. Log my time based on exactly what iChris just laid out for all to read, as I. see fit for my log book, as it was put out for my consideration during training per FAA regulations FAR 61.51

 

My primary instructor didn't conform to the way a lot of guys seem to, and he made it clear to me, I could log my time as I saw fit so long as it was legal by the regs he would sign it. All entires I made for flights with him he has signed. I hate it when guys say the words....."Well thats how I was trained....."

 

Back it up brother with regs or go home.

 

Want to be a dick and say I call you dishonest? Want to insinuate I think loopholes are cheats?

 

Well I didn't, I merely said I drew a line for myself, not for you. I drew my line with black and white regulations in my copy of the FARs.

 

I also stated, if a student of mine didn't see it as I did for their log book for their time, and logged it differently for THEMSELVES,

 

THEN, AND ONLY THEN

 

would I sign the entry if it met legal regs to which represented the time being logged.

 

Can a student pilot log PIC on a solo? Yep if solo endorsed, and Sole occupant of the ship.

 

Did I for myself? Nope it was logged as solo so I can see the difference during training for myself in my log book.

 

Can a student pilot log PIC with a CFI on board before being rated? Hmmmm.... Nope, but they could on a solo flight as a Sole occupant. ( read FAR 61.51(e) (iv) (D) (i,ii,iii).

 

There is a very important word choice to pay attention to. It reads in between the i, ii, and iii. That word does not say "or". It says "and". That means all three items are in play at the same time, not individually.

 

Solo endorsed, sole occupant, does ship require more than one pilot( pilots hold ratings not student pilot), check POH for required crew, AND is under going training for a pilot certificate.

 

Did I? Nope, just dual until I was rated. Even my solo was just logged solo so I can keep it separate in my own book. ( looks good in my logs too! )

 

Am I on a pedestal for choosing to do so? Nope.( still waiting on it from the FAA, they said they are about six months out on pedestals that were earned )

 

Do I feel for me that was how it needed to be? Yep. ( Makes me happy )

 

To each their own, but don't be saying I called anyone anything if I didn't. ( that pisses me off )

 

I am sure now a pissed off someone will try and quote my words, but read them carefully before you do and understand who is being talked about and what was said.

 

Last but not least....was that how you were trained? Read these regs...I do often and find that I gave liberty more than I should have, and the regs never said it was allowed.

 

Read them, don't paraphrase or take out of context, keep the whole part whole and that way we preserve our integrity, and our certs!

[Jaybee]

Log transition hours as dual, not PIC, or even SIC when no endorsement or type rating has been issued. Be honest, and in the long run it all works out!

 

This is what you said. You called people dishonest for putting transition hours in their log book as PIC. You are incorrect.

[Jaybee]

Last but not least....was that how you were trained? Read these regs...I do often and find that I gave liberty more than I should have, and the regs never said it was allowed.

 

 

 

Incorrect.

 

I already linked the letters in the first post to back up my position.

 

PS - You are the only one talking about Student pilots here. Read what I said, rated for category, class and type rating if applicable. That is probably why you are so confused.

[Jaybee]

I am sure now a pissed off someone will try and quote my words, but read them carefully before you do and understand who is being talked about and what was said.

 

 

Might want to heed your own advice.

[WolftalonID]

Incorrect.

 

I already linked the letters in the first post to back up my position.

 

PS - You are the only one talking about Student pilots here. Read what I said, rated for category, class and type rating if applicable. That is probably why you are so confused.

Did you seriously just say that? Wow.. Makes sense though... Makes sense.

 

You see...I like to read....should try it sometime.... Like the title of this post as an option for ya...

 

? I am the only one talking about student pilots here ?

 

As far as transition hrs logged.... Type rating is still required to log the PIC if the ship requires a type rating. If its not required, then you can log it I suppose as a rated pilot your signature is all thats needed. I personally will separate my transition hrs from my endorsed hrs for my own record keeping.

 

Yes many have mentioned student pilots as the thread was started as such, as well we have tried to cover PIC as a CFI, rated pilot in transition, and even add on so far.

 

Maybe we need to include discovery flights too being no student pilot certificate has been issued for most that happen?

 

Your letter you posted still quotes the regs as did the clarifications posted by iChris....

 

So.... Back to logging hrs as PIC as a STUDENT pilot like the OP intended....

 

How was it justified in your log book to log it as PIC after you received your solo endorsement, and were being given dual training?

 

If you were solo and chose to log solo AND PIC, as is ok per the regulations I understand, and if you were my student, I would sign that off....

 

But as far as PIC under dual instruction with or without at solo...its not loggable as PIC by a student pilot. They have to be the sole occupant with a solo endorsement...not my words its in the book.

[WolftalonID]

This is what you said. You called people dishonest for putting transition hours in their log book as PIC. You are incorrect.

 

Like my statement.....read who was being talked about..... It was me..ok me. Honest for me is still me...

 

If you like I could go back and edit that for you and include Jaybee in that sentence? Then it would be you but I didn't did I? Nope...

[Joe_P148]

Honestly,

 

There are a lot of loopholes and contradictions regarding the PIC logging. I personally believe that if you are flying with an instructor you cannot log PIC time at all since you are not responsible for the general safety and operation of the aircraft. If you are NOT rated in type and you are solo you cannot log PIC, which I can understand but I also think is kinda dumb if your PIC endorsed in other airframes. I know you guys hate us military folks but it's so much easier in the military when it comes to logging PIC because Pilot In Command means exactly what it says, not where in the civilian world it means your wiggling sticks. I think this is a huge loop hole in the system. What is stopping me from logging all my time in my civilian logbook as PIC time? No one knows if I'm manipulating the controls or not.?!

 

https://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources/Learn-to-Fly/Aviation-Subject-Report-Logging-Pilot-in-Command-PIC-Time.aspx

[C of G]

Out of curiosity, what helicopter are pilots soloing that requires a type rating? What student pilot is flying a helicopter that requires a type?

[helonorth]

Out of curiosity, what helicopter are pilots soloing that requires a type rating? What student pilot is flying a helicopter that requires a type?

Thank you.