zaurus Posted April 21, 2014 Posted April 21, 2014 Looking for opinions from you old heads out there. When Ft Rucker has their full complement of Lakotas for training purposes, is there a real need in teaching autorotaions all the way to touch down since the Lakota is a dual engine aircraft. There would obviously be a cost savings if the autorotations terminated at a 5-10 ft hover. Fiscal responsibility is the name of the game in the upcoming peacetime Army. 1 Quote
Velocity173 Posted April 21, 2014 Posted April 21, 2014 I don't think they'll do them to the ground. Don't do the to the ground with 64s, 47s and 60s. Even some companies that fly single engine these days don't do them to the ground outside of the simuator. Too much risk and wear and tear on the aircraft. I think the students will be missing out on some cool training but the odds of a dual engine failure are pretty slim to warrant that type of training. Quote
zVo Posted April 22, 2014 Posted April 22, 2014 The current AR 95-1 says "no" to full-down autorotations in dual engine aircraft, too. Obviously the Army could change that, but I'd guess terminating with power will be the new norm. Quote
akscott60 Posted April 22, 2014 Posted April 22, 2014 The Army took chinooks full down into the 90s. Its a super easy aircraft do land smoothly. It has huge trailing link landing gear in the rear. As for autos, yea, they are going to go away along with single engine army aircraft I fear. Although the slick 58Ds at Rucker are the last time I did one to the ground.... Quote
ShaneWey Posted April 22, 2014 Posted April 22, 2014 Would that sort of thing hurt your resume/flight experience (never having done a full autorotation)? Quote
DaveC Posted April 22, 2014 Posted April 22, 2014 Don't think it would matter in the job search. Not like there's a logbook column for autos. 1 Quote
Joe_P148 Posted April 22, 2014 Posted April 22, 2014 Would that sort of thing hurt your resume/flight experience (never having done a full autorotation)?Not really, I'd imagine most if not all Army aviators when they leave the Army will work for a part 135 company flying mid size twin engine turbine helicopters. This is just my speculation however, if you look at the numbers. Operators are increasingly buying more multi engine turbine aircraft, hence the demand for full touch down auto experience although valuable, will shrink in the near future. Again this is purely my speculation as operators become more risk advers and multi engine aircraft become more affordable. Quote
apacheguy Posted April 22, 2014 Posted April 22, 2014 Looking for opinions from you old heads out there. When Ft Rucker has their full complement of Lakotas for training purposes, is there a real need in teaching autorotaions all the way to touch down since the Lakota is a dual engine aircraft. There would obviously be a cost savings if the autorotations terminated at a 5-10 ft hover. Fiscal responsibility is the name of the game in the upcoming peacetime Army. There's a need for sure. Imagine a whole generation of army aviators who've never done an auto to the ground. Up to now we've not been doing autos to the ground in the Lakota though. Maybe that'll change but I doubt it. We did do a few run on landings in the sod but that was at the Eurocopter school. Speaking of terminating at 5-10 feet, I had a crew who dragged the left tailfin down the runway because they terminated too low. I'd suggest you be stopped a little higher than 10 feet just in case... Quote
Velocity173 Posted April 22, 2014 Posted April 22, 2014 I fly a 407 and they couldn't care less about auto experience. We do autos in quarterly training but terminate (10 ft) with power. Also, while they prefer type aircraft experience, it's not a big deal. Most of the guys I know had no B407, EC135 or EC145 time prior to joining EMS. They went straight from the military and rolled into a completely new airframe. Even if you're rated in their aircraft you still have to go through their training program anyway and then take a 135 ride at the end. They want hours, a solid IFR background and be incredibly good looking. 4 Quote
brackac Posted April 22, 2014 Posted April 22, 2014 Straight from the bible. c. Helicopters–multi-engine.(1) In multi-engine helicopters touchdown autorotations and antitorque touchdown emergency procedure training isprohibited. Autorotations with power recoveries and terminations with power will be conducted per the ATM. Quote
brackac Posted April 22, 2014 Posted April 22, 2014 Would that sort of thing hurt your resume/flight experience (never having done a full autorotation)?It does. The technique taught for terminating an "autorotation" teaches bad muscle memory. Take a 500 hour Army dual engine rated aviator, put him in the simulator, and without warning cut both engines and watch how the auto terminates. Quote
Yamer Posted April 23, 2014 Posted April 23, 2014 Challenge accepted... Later on, at some point I'm sure Quote
akscott60 Posted April 23, 2014 Posted April 23, 2014 It does. The technique taught for terminating an "autorotation" teaches bad muscle memory. Take a 500 hour Army dual engine rated aviator, put him in the simulator, and without warning cut both engines and watch how the auto terminates. Truth. I have seen this first hand. An auto is something my community doesnt even think about, and its what my last community thought about all the time. Quote
apacheguy Posted April 23, 2014 Posted April 23, 2014 We had 3 real world autos at NTC in a year. All 3 were OH-58Cs; 1 was a turbine coming apart during a MTF, 1 was an ECU failure at cruise flight, and 1 was pilot error during SEF training. 2 of them happened at airfields, thankfully. 1 of the aircraft was demolished, the other 2 landed safely. Nobody was hurt in any of them. I really hope the army doesn't get out of the autorotation to the ground business. Quote
brackac Posted April 24, 2014 Posted April 24, 2014 We had 3 real world autos at NTC in a year. All 3 were OH-58Cs; 1 was a turbine coming apart during a MTF, 1 was an ECU failure at cruise flight, and 1 was pilot error during SEF training. 2 of them happened at airfields, thankfully. 1 of the aircraft was demolished, the other 2 landed safely. Nobody was hurt in any of them. I really hope the army doesn't get out of the autorotation to the ground business. My last Battalion Commander is over at NTC now. Quote
apacheguy Posted April 24, 2014 Posted April 24, 2014 My last Battalion Commander is over at NTC now. Eagle Team was supposed to field the UH-72 a long time ago but they fought it tooth and nail. I hope your old BC likes flying the 58C... Quote
Hobbit64 Posted April 24, 2014 Posted April 24, 2014 Just my humble opinion, but I don't see touch downs happening. At the factory course you do 'run ons' in the grass but if your Uncle owns it, no bueno. While I truly enjoy flying it, I can't see it being a good trainer. Modulated starts, complex avionics&systems and a rigid rotor will get in the way of learning. Oh, don't forget the Mast Moment! Oh what fun it would be to endure... I gotta ask, just what did Bell do to get totally kicked off the Army Aviation reservation?!I loved the 58A/C's and -67's. Quote
brackac Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 Eagle Team was supposed to field the UH-72 a long time ago but they fought it tooth and nail. I hope your old BC likes flying the 58C...Are you still at NTC? He is an Apache guy coming from the 101st. Quote
apacheguy Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 Are you still at NTC? He is an Apache guy coming from the 101st.Nope. I ran away from that place as fast as I could. Quote
Yamer Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 Speaking of 72s at Rucker, has anyone seen them replacing th-67s yet? Quote
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