Quick Stops?

[Nearly Retired]

Over on the "other" JH forum someone posted a video of a CH-53 doing some sort of fast approach to a huge decel. Looked pretty exciting for everyone onboard, as well as anyone watching and filming.

 

As usual on that board there was much discussion about the maneuver, and quick stops in general. It got me thinking, and you know how dangerous that is.

 

I've never...that's *NEVER* done a quick-stop in real life. Plenty in training, but never a for-real, "Hit the brakes!" quick-stop.

 

Given that a "quick-stop" is not an emergency-stop but actually just a slow and coordination deceleration maneuver, does it have any value in the real world?

 

When I was down in Honduras undergoing my initial 747 training/checkout...oh wait, that's not me, that's someone else...lessee... Oh yeah, I was flying an FH1100 for a guy. (It's basically like a Bell 206.) The owner and I would sometimes go out and play...err, practice. We'd do autos, sure...autos until we got tired of them.

 

But the real fun was doing quick-stops on the runway...but here's the kicker, we'd try to time it so our termination was over an exact spot, like an intersecting taxiway or something. Usually didn't work. It's harder than you'd think!

 

Soooo, is there an argument to be made that a quick-stop has any value *other* than in training?

[Pohi]

I can see the theory and reasoning behind quick stops outside the training environment, however I haven't had to do one.

 

I haven't had to slam on my breaks (instead of going around something) in my car in quite some time either. However, I'm glad I have anti lock breaks.

 

if I had to draw a parallel between the quick stop and something non aviation related, that would be it. An effective way to stop quickly when going around or normal aborted takeoff isn't an option.

[Spike]

IMHO, in the training environment, the Rapid Deceleration maneuver is mostly a flight control coordination exercise. And yes, I’ve used those inputs from time-to-time to avoid a collision with birds or other aircraft but, mostly to spot-drop on veg-fires. Plus, it’s a good way to prep a student for flares for auto’s…….. Oddly enough, the JCAB (Japans FAA equivalent) PTS requires the maneuver to be conducted at 1000 feet terminating HOGE….. In any case, beyond training, when the maneuver was performed, it was done for a reason……

[Eric Hunt]

Once my students had the basics of the into-wind and downwind q-stops in their minds (turn and flare, or flare and turn), I would set up a scenario for them. I showed them a particular patch of grass or a bush that stood out from a distance, then fly away in any direction for about half a mile.

 

Then I tell them "Get back to that area as fast as you can, and finish in a hover into wind over that patch of grass / bush".

 

This makes them take into account the weight/momentum of the machine, where the wind is from and how strong, planning how fast to get the machine going, when to start the turn and the flare, how hard to hook into it and so on. A wonderful training exercise, and comes in handy when you are qualified and doing short hops back and forth between pads.

[ShelbyFlyer]

My operation treats the rapid deceleration maneuver training as an aborted take-off. We normally take-off from a short field area with not great safety areas outside of the heliport. The rapid deceleration allows us to abort a take off after ETL and return to a hover or ground within our heliport.

[avbug]

It's got a lot of value in cattle work, and netgunning and bulldogging wildlife from the skids. It has some real application when ingress to a landing site needs to be fast and abrupt, with a quick drop.

[Matt321]

Never done cattle or wildlife stuff but I've seen some videos, appears to be an operation where quick stops would be valuable. As far as practicing for a fast abrupt decel into an LZ, I can't totally agree. I was taught a more controlled version for landing off airport at high gross weight/DA, but it's not really the pts quick stop. I was also taught a quick approach for a hot LZ, also very different from a quick stop. It's also important to remember that when stopping quickly at low airspeed the tail rotor will swing down. I like the idea of stops to a point to build proficiency in a/c control and have done it myself for fun. Like other pts tasks, it has training value when thoroughly explained and done correctly.

[superstallion6113]

I saw some comments over there, even some about the nose up attitude of the aircraft. The 53 has a 5 degree forward tilted main rotor, that when doing quick stops, obviously puts the aircraft at an extreme nose up attitude. It was never an issue because the pilots kept ground reference by looking through the side windows and chin bubbles, and by listening to the calls in the back from the aircrewman on the cargo ramp, and left/right crew windows. It really was nothing out of the ordinary when comparing the video to what I experienced and saw during my time in the Corps. An aircraft that has 3 engines, over 12k shaft horsepower, a 7 bladed fully articulating head, the ability to carry 31k lbs of crap, and cruise at over 150 knots turns into a very maneuverable aircraft when empty. The safety and need to perform the maneuver can be debated all day long to no end. But the aircraft is certainly capable with no ill effects other than blowing over anything not tied down within 200-300 feet or so of the landing area.

 

Obviously outside of the designed flight parameters of the aircraft, but they even successfully did a nose up loop, and a barrel roll in the old twin engined CH-53A back in the 60s as a test of the aircraft's maneuverability. That aircraft had one less engine and one less rotor blade than the E model.

 

When we were deployed to Iraq, the quick stops were not so much an aborted take off, but more of a fast way into a potentially hot LZ while inserting or picking up troops. A 100 foot long, 80 foot wide, 30 foot tall slow moving target doing a normal approach is pretty easy to hit with an RPG.

Edited October 18, 2015 by superstallion6113

[BH206L3]

Out side of training, I never did any! I look at it as a training thing to teach smooth application of the controls. Like Lazy 8's turns about a point Chondells and flight and MCA in airplanes, it teaches the student pilot to be smooth and to be in charge of the aircraft no the other way around! Dose it have a place in real life flying, I guess it dose, I just never did that sort of flying! Its a confidance building thing! Maybe in Cherry Drying but I would not know!

[Joe_P148]

I do not see any application for a quick stop other than tactical.

 

A quick stop / deceleration can be used to maintain a speedy infiltration for Fast Rope Insertion as this video demonstrates. Some guys do them more aggressively than others.

 

 

https://youtu.be/kGIi27phQaQ​

[Nearly Retired]

I guess I worded my original question inelegantly; I probably should have asked if the "quick-stop" maneuver has any value in civilian ops? In any case, thanks to those of you who replied - you all brought up things I had not considered. Every year a "friend" of mine tries to get me to stay on the west coast over the winter and fly Christmas trees. Do I look like someone who wants to end up YouTube?? Meh- maybe some day when I'm feeling younger and more ballsy I'll do that. That ought to get me good at quick-stops!

 

Might remark on something superstallion said:

 

When we were deployed to Iraq, the quick stops were not so much an aborted take off, but more of a fast way into a potentially hot LZ while inserting or picking up troops. A 100 foot long, 80 foot wide, 30 foot tall slow moving target doing a normal approach is pretty easy to hit with an RPG.

 

 

Thank you, superstallion-whose-icon-is-a-phrog! I did not think it was possible, but you've just convinced me that I *never* want to be flying a heavy V-22 into a hot LZ in hostile territory. Talk about a sitting duck! Or sitting Osprey, either/or.

[r22butters]

Well the RFH simply says "In normal operations, use the quick stop maneuver to slow the helicopter rapidly and bring to a stationary hover",...doesn't seem to say why, or when we would want to do this? It goes on to say, "...it is performed slowly,...", which I must say, I find amusingly contradictive. Really? You want me to slowly, slow the helicopter rapidly?

 

Anyway, I do them from time to time, purely for the fun of it.

[Wally]

Soooo, is there an argument to be made that a quick-stop has any value *other* than in training?

 

The skills required to do a "quick stop" are pretty basic, but one usually doesn't have to use a maneuver as aggressive as the school quick stop in ordinary day to day flying. When you do it for real, it won't much matter if you do it to the nit-picky training parameters, ie 50' agl @ 50 kts, coordinated decel, then rotating around the tail rotor as you settle into a 3, 4 or 5 foot hover.

 

Parts of it ARE useful in day to day, the smooth max decel and turning into the wind, for instance. Which I never get to do in EMS...

 

Good training maneuver, way, way too emphasized.

[adam32]

I thought picking up a cone with the toe of the skid and setting it upright then knocking it over again was more fun then quickstops...lol

Edited October 19, 2015 by adam32

[r22butters]

I thought picking up a cone with the toe of the skid and setting it upright then knocking it over again was more fun then quickstops...lol

 

This might not be as fun, but afterwards it leaves you with a reason to celebrate!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUT-d_ZmIPY

 

[video=you tube;YUT-d_ZmIPY]

Well kiss my grits! I finally learned how to put a video directly onto a post!

Edited October 27, 2015 by r22butters

[Pohi]

I know pilots who do quick stops/rapid decelerations when landing on a platform doing field work 50+ times a day. Not quite how the GOM says to do, but it's done.

[Pohi]

And with more and more helicopters being equipped with monitoring systems, those numbers are going down

[Pohi]

And with more and more helicopters being equipped with monitoring systems, those numbers are going down

[superstallion6113]

 

Might remark on something superstallion said:

 

 

 

Thank you, superstallion-whose-icon-is-a-phrog! I did not think it was possible, but you've just convinced me that I *never* want to be flying a heavy V-22 into a hot LZ in hostile territory. Talk about a sitting duck! Or sitting Osprey, either/or.

 

 

Hahah, yeah I am a 53 guy at heart, but I've been fortunate enough to have a great job for 2 years now working as an A&P on the U.S. State Dept phrogs in Kabul just like the one in my avatar. Didn't care so much for the 46 since they are a huge PITA to turn wrenches on, but it led to the opportunity to work on their Bell 212s and S-61s in Iraq a few moths ago, so at least I'm back on some old Sikorsky stuff again.

Edited October 19, 2015 by superstallion6113

[Radam]

I would agree that in my opinion Quick Stops are more for learning coordination of the controls and just becoming more comfortable with handling and maneuvering the aircraft. I always wanted to see my students perform them smoothly and coordinated rather than "quick".

 

As far as real world applications...I wouldn't say they are performed often generally speaking, but I tend to do more of a quick stop than a normal approach when I am coming back to the truck for another load. It would be a little annoying for some if I came in slow and stable every time I came back to the truck. Not saying I come screaming in and slam on the breaks, but its closer to that than a normal approach that's for sure.

[Pohi]

I think that you are right on, Radam. Most cases a rapid deceleration is how I usually saw my friends landing back to the truck during ag. True, it wasn't as abrupt as during training, but on a scale between normal approach to landing and a quick stop, the final approach is way closer to quick stop.

[Joe_P148]

You know, I was thinking about it.

 

You may use a quick stop if you need to Auto into a confined area. In that case practice it thinking about doing a zero ground run Auto.

[Wally]

I know pilots who do quick stops/rapid decelerations when landing on a platform doing field work 50+ times a day. Not quite how the GOM says to do, but it's done.

 

13 years and about 70,000 landings offshore, and I can't think of a worse place to do quick stops than to an elevated pad. That will catch you eventually, guaranteed. Tail rotor strikes, hard landings, settling with power... Every one of which happened to other pilots on my contract.

 

Here's a relatively common one, which I managed to repeat twice without scratching paint or getting wet while doing about a hundred, hundred plus landings a day over those 13 years:

Coming up to the pad, downwind, 300' and cruise speed. Plan is decel as I pass abeam, reduce power sufficient to descend and 180 onto the pad- the way I do half my daily landings after a couple years of it.

Power down, nose up, bank into a descending 180, on path and speed as I pass the 90, and deceling, out of ETL at some point, not much wind, rolling out nose up, bring hover power in as I level, there's the pad and it's coming up fast!.., more power, no change... My choices are hit the pad hard but level: risk catching the tail rotor as I decel onto the pad; or roll to the side; do one or the other NOW! Off to the side, power to max, nose down to fly, levelled out way too frickin' close to the Gulf.... and I'm down wind. Perhaps that's what happened to the other 3 pilots who elected to continue to the pad?

Elevated pads are THE PLACE you want to be all airplane: stable, slow and at attitude as you cross the fence.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Wally

[R22139RJ]

I use a gentler version of a quick stop going back to truck as Pohi spoke of. I usually hit top speed and have a point where I begin a very long decel. I get to the truck, flare and level and if all goes well I'm about 5 ft up and 5 ft back from the loading deck. I make sure to enter it smooth and give the rotor rpm a gentle ride.

 

This is my technique. There is a pilot I fly with that flares hard every time as if it were a quick stop. Ag has the benefit of going back to truck very, very light though.

 

We have all seen the pilots sling Christmas trees. That's some she i it right thur.

Edited October 20, 2015 by R22139RJ

[Jaybee]

 

I've never...that's *NEVER* done a quick-stop in real life. Plenty in training, but never a for-real, "Hit the brakes!" quick-stop.

 

 

That's not true, I can think of at least two times.... Small woods and the Bakery