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Bell 505 Jet Ranger X


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#41 Nearly Retired

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 00:26

Palmfish:

 

You mean like those clueless Hughes designers did with the 500? Now there's a helicopter that nobody will buy... ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

 

 

Seems to me that like the OH-4/206, the original OH-6/369 had the PIC on the right...which is where the fuel port is, no?  Then, for the civilian version Hughes moved the PIC over to the left because they realized they had to stick five schmucks into that thing, and the back seat only had room for two schmucks.
 



#42 palmfish

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 01:00

Palmfish:

 
 
Seems to me that like the OH-4/206, the original OH-6/369 had the PIC on the right...which is where the fuel port is, no?  Then, for the civilian version Hughes moved the PIC over to the left because they realized they had to stick five schmucks into that thing, and the back seat only had room for two schmucks.


You mean for use "in the real world?"

#43 aeroscout

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 03:12

Palmfish:

 

 

Seems to me that like the OH-4/206, the original OH-6/369 had the PIC on the right...which is where the fuel port is, no?  Then, for the civilian version Hughes moved the PIC over to the left because they realized they had to stick five schmucks into that thing, and the back seat only had room for two schmucks.
 

2 hunched over and squeezed in schmucks with a screaming transmission in one ear.



#44 Nearly Retired

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 03:39

Hey Palmfish, you intentionally being an a-hole here or are you just playing at it?  I'm just cranky enough tonight to not want to  put up with your inane crap.

 

We weren't talking about the H-500.  But since you brought it up, yeah, Hughes pulled the same boner Bell did when they (Hughes) moved the PIC to the left side while the fuel filler remained on the right (wrong) side.  But so what?  What's your point?  There are lots of helicopters with the fuel filler on the "wrong" side: AS-350/355 series for one.  Big deal.  Who cares.  Does not matter.

 

The POINT here is that Bell already had a good thing going with the pilot/fuel filler arrangement of the 206, then they DELIBERATELY moved the fuel filler to the other (wrong) side, which strikes *ME* as pretty stupid.

 

I suggest you stay in the military. Your limited knowledge of aviation will probably serve you well there   <_<  ;)  ;)


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#45 palmfish

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 10:36

Bell did it. Hughes did it. Eurocopter did it.

 

I'm glad we were able to come to a consensus! :)



#46 Nearly Retired

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 10:48

Interesting point of view:  "If everybody is doing it, it must be right!"



#47 Whistlerpilot

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 12:51

I for one am looking forward to this "new and improved" Jet Ranger. One comment that hasn't been brought up is disc loading. The R66 has issues with disc loading because it's so light (1350 LBS) with a bigger rotor chord than the R44. This means it's not a great helicopter lightly loaded or in high or gusty winds, and at least two fatal accidents were inflight breakups likely caused by the pilots suddenly unloading the disc.

 

The new Jet Ranger presumably will be lighter than the original, but it has the Long Ranger L4 rotables. Tail rotor will be great, as will the nodal beam and bigger transmission. But that big 37 foot diameter main rotor on a light aircraft? Hope they get the disc loading right, at least it's a high inertia rotor, but might not be a good aircraft to fly around solo in gusty winds like the R66. I had a chance to fly the R66 16 hours this winter and have to say it's pretty impressive as long as you understand it's limitations. It's not a great entry level helicopter, not very forgiving of unloading the disc, not my first choice for winds in the mountains. But it has the performance, view and simplicity.

 

Like NR brought up I hope Bell has a team of operational pilots guiding the engineers. Sounds like with the 500 HP Arrius and the transmission to take the power it will be a big improvement on the 317 HP transmission limited Jet Ranger. Agree fuel should be on the pilot side, but got used to the Astar so perhaps Bell think Eurocopter/Airbus was onto something there?

 

Personally I love Long Rangers, it may not be the most powerful or fast in it's class but they are a noble helicopter. A hard act to follow, would probably buy a used Long Ranger over this new Jet Ranger X if I had the money. It will be interesting to see if Bell can compete with Robinson for the light market. Price and performance will decide and time will tell...


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#48 Astro

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 13:12

What are these pilots doing to unload the disk in the R66?



#49 Whistlerpilot

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 14:17

Hey Astro that's purely speculation on my part the NTSB hasn't ruled a definitive cause yet. However I do have lots of R44 time, and the R66 has the same quirks but magnified in my opinion. Anything that really unloads the disc or induces low rotor RPM can be really dangerous in any helicopter but especially so in the Robinson. It's the only semirigid rotor head with 3 bolts or hinges. Those coning hinges will allow more flapping when RRPM is low and less centrifugal force is holding them rigid. One tail chop, and one mast bump in the R66 so far. The other 3 fatal R66 accidents were not inflight breakups just pilots missing the edge of the sky.

 

Be gentle on the controls and she will be gentle back to you. We all know "no low g pushovers" but that's only one way to unload the disc. Next time someone's doing a hover auto in an R44 watch the disc cone as RPM decays. Now imagine a panicky pilot doing some big avoidance at the same time. Bye bye to your tail or rotors.

 

Light helicopter in big winds me no like. Any helicopter can tail chop if you do something extreme enough, but not all are so prone to mast bumping. Don't get me wrong I love flying the R44, kinda prefer it over a straight 206B3, but know your helicopter's idiosyncracies.

 

The Jet Ranger statistically is the safest single engine aircraft, hope that holds true for the New and Improved Jet Ranger X!


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#50 adam32

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 20:17

The disc unloading issue sounds a lot like why the FH1100 got nicknamed the Killer Hiller..

Edited by adam32, 10 March 2014 - 20:18.


#51 Nearly Retired

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 01:02

With respect to the "Killer Hiller" remark...

 

First let us keep in mind that the FH1100 beat the 206 to the market by a bit.  Fairchild-Hiller just started selling the same aircraft to civilians as they proposed to the military.  Bell had to redesign their OH-4 LOH entry into what we now know as the 206A.  In 1966, Bell's focus was on winning the LOH re-bid.  Fairchild-Hiller had already given up on that contract and started selling the FH1100 on the civilian market, getting a slight jump on the boys from Fort Worth. As a kid, I remember seeing FH1100's around before 206's.

 

Also, there is nothing different about the FH1100's rotor system today than back when it was first introduced.  So why were rotors coming off?

 

We have to remember that back in the mid-1960's helicopters were 70-80 mph aircraft.  Then along came the FH1100 which would cruise all day long at 127 mph.  You simply cannot get away with stuff at 127 mph that you can at 80.  I believe that the instances of mast-bumping in the early FH1100 were simply due to unskilled pilots being unfamiliar with cruising at nearly double the speed of their former 47J's. 

 

Whistlerpilot says:

The new Jet Ranger presumably will be lighter than the original...

 

 

Really?  How do you figure that?  The last 206B I flew was not plushed-out, had no rotor brake and was on high-skids.  It weighed 1832 pounds. 

 

I'm pretty sure that the 505 will be heavier than a 206B.  Bigger transmission, bigger rotor system, bigger (non-composite) cabin, heavier seats, bigger engine...  I'd be really, really surprised if Bell can bring it to production at much under 2,000 pounds (low skids, basic Utility interior).  I'd love to eat these words!  There may be a reason Bell hasn't even published any anticipated empty weight for the thing. They probably don't want people going, "Good GOD! That pig's heavier than my old B-model...the one with IFR instruments and the Janitrol heater!!"



#52 Whistlerpilot

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 13:27

Nothing new here, but a short video from the marketers.

 

http://skiesmag.com/...#.UyChM4WwXg8st

 

After thinking more about the 505 I think the CG issues with the mast location will not be a problem because the passenger locations are on average a shorter arm than a Long Ranger. Such a long diameter rotor and high mast on a shorter (than the LR) cabin will work fine. The fuel tank(s) location will be better than the LR and 407 with the CG Forward Back Forward fuel burn situation. Sounds like it will be fast, great visibility, all comes down to price to compete with the R66. Will blow the EC 120 away (especially price) in everything except looks and compact size. It's a long helicopter with those big rotors and long tail so not the best for really tight confines. However you can usually get a Long Ranger into an Astar hover-hole so it will get the job done.

 

I think the concept of using existing technology will work to keep the price down. What fun to be an armchair critic! I feel so damn important, Bell should be putting me on payroll. Now if they manufactured it in China it could be really cheap...

 

How does the saying go, you can have Fast, Good, and Cheap, but only two at a time.


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#53 aeroscout

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 13:59

 

 

How does the saying go, you can have Fast, Good, and Cheap, but only two at a time.

Add easy into the mix !



#54 Jaybee

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 14:11

If they just change the skids the looks would improve about 143.6%.... so other than the skids it looks as good as a Robbie to me....


"In flying I have learned that carelessness and overconfidence are usually far more dangerous than deliberately accepted risks." — Wilbur Wright in a letter to his father, September 1900. 
 
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#55 Nearly Retired

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 23:00

What I got out of the video posted by Whistlerpilot is:

 

1) They're claiming a 125 knot cruise speed!

 

2) They hope to have the first flight at the end of 2014.

 

If they get 125 knots in cruise out of that thing I will eat my shorts.  That's over 140 mph.  On a two-blade system with only 500 h.p.?  No friggin' way.

 

A lot can and will change between now and first flight.

 

 

 

P.S.  And you know what?  I just thought of something else...

 

125 knots with all that glass windscreen out front?  Two words: Bird strike.



#56 aussiecop

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 08:54

I did part of the filming of that video.  I spoke to a lot of the Bell people about the 505 during filming, I think the numbers are going to be less than what they advertise now, but for anyone who saw the first artist conception of the Bell 407 and what it ended up as a final product, we all know that the first iteration of something is usually vastly different from the production model.  From crawling around in it, I do love the new cabin feel, but flying it will be the big test.  I can't wait to hear some feedback once it flies from someone who gets some stick time.



#57 Spike

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 11:35

“People don’t buy what you do, they buy why you do it”

 

When Airbus (Eurocopter) decides to R&D new concepts, they go to their customer base and asked what they would like to see in their (Airbuses) new platforms. From there, the EC130 (tour market) and 135 (EMS market) were developed.   Bell on the other hand seems to hold steadfast to development of a new concept in hopes of attracting the customer base, after-the-fact (refer to quoted 1st sustenance). In the recent past, this philosophy has let them down ala 427 and the 210. With this being said, on the surface, it would appear Airbus wants to satisfy the customer while Bell wants to make a profit…. 

 

It’s clear, the 505 is being developed to compete with the R66. Why? Simply because people will want the additional passenger and, the fact there are folks who refuse to buy a Robinson product….

 

Simon Sinek speaks of the “why” idea along with relevant story telling (Samuel Pierpont Langley and TiVo) in addition to true business concepts (The Law of Diffusion of Innovation).  Bell could learn from this. I know I did…. Checkitout……

 

http://www.ted.com/t..._inspire_action


Edited by Spike, 13 March 2014 - 11:36.


#58 Nearly Retired

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 10:03

Spike:

It’s clear, the 505 is being developed to compete with the R66. Why? Simply because people will want the additional passenger...

 

 

Both the R-66 and 505 are 5-seat helicopters, no?  If anything, I think Bell is trying to win back the defectors who went and bought an R-44 and are now looking for a turbine ship that's better-looking than the goofy R-66 (oopsie!).  Or is that what you meant?


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#59 Whistlerpilot

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 11:16

275 hours of flight testing so far, and all reports sound positive for the 505. Looking forward to the first post on VR from someone who has actually flown the 505. With certification anticipated before Christmas that could be soon...

 

http://www.verticalm...s/article/32307

 


Edited by Whistlerpilot, 30 July 2015 - 11:20.

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#60 adam32

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Posted 30 July 2015 - 13:41

Looks like an oversized Guimbal G2...






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