busy airspace

[Rat]

As a student do you think it's beneficial to learn in busy airspace ? What are the positives and negatives ? Thanks in advance for your responses.

[rick1128]

As a student do you think it's beneficial to learn in busy airspace ? What are the positives and negatives ? Thanks in advance for your responses.

 

You would be much better off learning at an airport that is near a busy airport. All a busy airport does for you besides improve your radio work is cost you money. I would train at an airport near a Class B or C airport and fly in and out enough times to become comfortable. For the most part, helicopters work outside of busy area, but you do need to know how to handle flight into these areas.

[rotor91]

IF you learn in a busy airspace, then you can handle any airspace. It's overwhelming at first, but you get used to it. My .02!

 

R91

Rob

 

As a student do you think it's beneficial to learn in busy airspace ? What are the positives and negatives ? Thanks in advance for your responses.

[kodoz]

Train close to busy airspace. The benefits of learning to talk to controllers who never take a breath isn't worth $4/minute.

[Goldy]

I'm leaning with Rob on this one. I flew out of VNY for about 3 years. Talk about busy airspace!! Having done that, I don't even hesitate to call LAX Class B, or any other controller. Years ago as a student I first flew out of a non towered airport. We did everything possible NOT to have to talk to a controller....big mistake.

 

Being a pilot requires more than just driving the helicopter. Good radio work and not being afraid of controllers is a good start.

 

Goldy

[CharyouTree]

I'm leaning with Rob on this one. I flew out of VNY for about 3 years. Talk about busy airspace!! Having done that, I don't even hesitate to call LAX Class B, or any other controller. Years ago as a student I first flew out of a non towered airport. We did everything possible NOT to have to talk to a controller....big mistake.

 

Being a pilot requires more than just driving the helicopter. Good radio work and not being afraid of controllers is a good start.

 

Goldy

I learned in a busy class D, and all of my pattern work was done at multi-'lane' fields with towers (Rucker). I'm actually the opposite, I don't like NOT talking to a controller (when I'm around a field, not just cruising along)

[ADRidge]

Being a pilot requires more than just driving the helicopter. Good radio work and not being afraid of controllers is a good start.

 

Goldy

You're absolutely right about that. I started my training in an area where the nearest C was 20 minutes north, the nearest Bravo was a good 1.5 flight east, and even then it was a pretty "tame" one. I say get the best of both worlds. Find yourself a Delta within the Mode C Veil of a Bravo. At first it'll blow your mind, but after a while it's just part of the daily routine. I think it's just another one of those things that improves you as a pilot overall. People shouldn't be scared of Bravo, yet some are. I think that's mildly ridiculous.

 

However, there may be times, especially if you have to talk to Ground, that you will sit for a very long time waiting for your clearance. There have been a few occasions where I'd sit there for 20 minutes before I was handed my clearance. But generally, it's a few minute wait and I'm golden.

[helikriewall]

It's definitely beneficial to learn at or near busy airspace. I did most of my training at Van Nuys as well and learned right from the beginning what it's like to operate in such busy airspace. I don’t think there should be any reason for a student or an instructor to be intimidated to go through or train in class B, C, or D. It makes cross country’s more fun, and you don’t have to worry about navigating around airspace when it's just as easy to get a transition through someone’s airspace.

 

Just my .02$ as well

 

Alex

[Linc]

Learned in the same place as Charyoutree, then went to Texas where my commander made the directive that we would not conduct cross-country flight to experience Class B or C airspace. The problem was, we were moving to a place just outside of a Class B. So, our first experience was when nobody had valid experience for a Class B.

 

It intimidates for about the first two or three times, and then you learn to spit your calls out in the appropriate-sized chunks to get permission to do what you are asking. The earlier you gain that experience, the better.

[Rick McWilliams]

I am a new helicopter pilot. I fly at Camarillo CMA and find that the controllers sometimes take a while before I am cleared for departure. I usually hover up and do some pedal turns. I can always use some precision hovering practice. Sometimes the tower is snitty and asks me to hold on the ground. I then request to hover in place awaiting takeoff clearance. Clearance delivery at a larger airport can take 10 minutes.

 

What is the proper procedure? Is hovering in place flying?

[JDHelicopterPilot]

I never had to wait to long to take off. Most larger airports have pretty set routes that keep helicopters and airplanes seperate. Some with have a Letter of Agreement between the Tower and Helicopter Operators. Long Beach,Ca for an example.

 

Train close to or in a Class D or C airport. Don't worry much about radio work, your instructor will go over that with you and teach you what you will have to do. Getting exposed to it sooner will make it easier to grasp.

 

VNY is a great place, it's or was the busiest GA Airport in the Country.

 

JD

[adam32]

I've hovered for almost 25 mins one time in Class D...pretty sure they forgot about me...

[HeliZach]

I got my PPL-H and CPL-H in class D. Had only ventured into C once or twice. I am now down here at Naval Flight School for the Coast Guard and I must say, this airspace is OVERWHELMING! I'd recommend training near a busy airport, you will be better off and more comfortable in the long run. You may waste some money waiting for clearances, but it is worth it.

[Goldy]

What is the proper procedure? Is hovering in place flying?

 

Hey Rick- I keep meaning to call you and stop by!. In short, yes, hovering is flying! My experience has been at VNY or BRB, if they want you to stand by, they need you on the ground. Good reasons too, if a gust of wind came along, the ship could move around quite a bit and could intrude upon the space of a passing aircraft. Of course, in the R22, a mouse fart could cause the tail to swing wildly, and you may get into Low G just trying to recover!

 

I have learned at CMA, that if you are down in the transient parking areas...non movement areas, you are pretty much on your own. So at the restaurant or east transient pads you can hover all you want while waiting!

 

Fly safe, we'll catch up to you soon !

 

Goldy

[Vassago]

I'm a student out of KHEF (Manassas, VA), its a great place to learn

KHEF is Class D airspace, so get familiar with towered airports, we fly out to Warrenton with no tower just CTAF for lower traffic area to do maneuvers, autos etc.

Have to deal with the SFRA (ADIZ whatever they call it this week) so requires flight plans +communication to potomac arrival/departure to leave/enter the area, and we have Dulles Airport (Class B ) right around the corner to get experience doing a transition

 

If you can fly here, you're good to go most anywhere

 

Thankfully as a student I haven't had to deal with flying into the FRZ (Flight Restricted Zone around the DC area)

Edited May 24, 2009 by Vassago

[DeLtaFoxY]

i think going to un-towered airports is good too [if you are learning in busy/controlled airspace]. there are busy airports without towers and knowing how to properly make tha calls without atc and how to LISTEN makes everyone happy ....ex: boulder city

Edited May 24, 2009 by DeLtaFoxY

[Darren Hughes]

I learned in Fresno, CA Class C airspace and always thought it a pain in the ass having to do ATIS, Ground, Tower, and Departure at the start of a flight and then ATIS, approach, tower on the way back. But, after a few flights I'd be able to get the ATIS and Ground out of the way while waiting for the chopper to warm up and we would rarely be delayed by tower for the takeoff.

 

As it turned out for me I found that it was good experience when it came to the instrument training as the calls were more natural and one less thing to think about. That is something my instrument students struggle with at the start of their course now as I'm now instructing out of a non-towered airport now.

 

Also flying regular flights into the various New York Class Bravos is really a non-event now, especially the Newark Tower freq, I love those guys!!

 

Hey Vassango, do you know Ryan Smith, one of the CFIs down there in Manassas? If so tell that "wee bastard" I said hi!!!

[Hedge36]

The busier, the better. I spend plenty of time stumbling and feeling like a dope (you know, hovering over the taxiway intersection having been told to switch to Tower, but didn't pre-set the Tower freq... now what?), but figure it's kind of like a language immersion course.

 

Living next to the airport I find that keeping my scanner on during the course of the workday keeps my brain in tune with the chatter. If that's not an option, you can always play a busy Class B sector off LiveATC.net - it makes your coworkers and family a bit nutty, but I swear it's good for the brain.

[Loves Dauphins]

I have to admit - I was pretty intimidated with talking to any sort of tower when I first started. I learned at a pretty busy non-towered airport (KFDK) so self announcing took some getting used to but one of the hardest things for me was understanding some of the lingo (cleared for the option etc). Eventually I filed on my own a couple of times to go through the ADIZ that surrounded the Baltimore/Washington corridor...I learned fast. If you learn at a non-towered just try to make some flights into busier airspace as soon as you are comfortable! just my 2 cents - good luck!

[Hammster]

Hey guy, here is a video of the process and radio calls to get in and out of Bravo airspace. I got to help make it and want some feedback. Let me know if you like it, hate it, or would change something about it. They use it at our school to help us become familiarized with the steps we will need to go threw to get in and out of the airspace quickly. Any way thanks for watching.

[JCM5]

I train at KBFI - class B airspace intersects SEATAC and Renton. All three are busy airports with every type of aircraft coming and going daily.

 

Personally I don't get overwhelmed at all and haven't had much trouble at all learning radio communications. I wouldn't really want it any other way.

[avbug]

Is hovering in place flying?

 

Yes, being in the air in controlled flight and not on the ground is flying.

 

Insofar as radio work goes, remember that of the three staples in aviating, talking is last place. Aviate, navigate, communicate, in that order.

 

Learning to fly is best done, and most inexpensively done, by learning to fly the aircraft first, then talking. If you are in a position to do both at the same time, more power to you; many have no choice. However, for the amount of time you will take getting cleared in and out of airspace and transiting busy airspace to a practice area, you're many dollars ahead getting the basics down outside of busy airspace, then learning to properly integrate into Class B, C, and D operations.

 

I had a few incidents of late in which a crew member first reached for the radio when he should have been doing something else. The urge to talk should never supplant the urge to fly the aircraft. Busy airspace is easily handled with a little exposure; it's not that complicated once one has done it a few times and then one has it down for the rest of one's career. Flying the aircraft, however, is a lifetime endeavor, and failing to do it right every single time will hurt or kill you. Talking on the radio, not so much.

 

Spend some time listening to the radio. Get a scanner and get familiar with the calls; you can buy a decent scanner for a lot less than an hour of flying time in busy airspace, and once it's in your hot, sweaty palm, it won't cost you anything to listen.

 

Get in the habit of writing things down. Take care of ATIS and clearances, where you can, before starting engines. Save yourself time and money. Start listening to ATIS early on the way back to the field, while you're not in a high-density environment. Jot it down. Use the acronym CRAFT to make it easy to compy clearances; have it all written in advance. Know what other traffic is being assigned, so you know what you can be assigned, to follow

 

C--Clearance

R--Route

A--Altitude

F--Frequency

T--Transponder

 

If you have that down, it's easy to copy, whether VFR or IFR. It makes your life more simple. We can all use that.

 

Rehearse what you're going to say in your mind before you say it. It's very frustrating on a busy frequency to hear "Ah, Wonderlust Tower, Yabba Dabba Xray Two Victor Hushpuppy is, ah, about fifteen or so miles out here to the west over a red barn and we're, ah, going to be, ah, coming over where you are, and we want to land. And oh, ah, yeah, we have information, ah, x-ray, with the weather and the landing information, and we, ah, want to know if we're still using runway 06, cause that's what the ATIS said and it might be old, and oh, we're wearing a green plaid shirt and, ah, I'm a scorpio and my turn-off's include corn beef hash and the number three, over."

 

Know when it's appropriate to talk and when it isn't. Some airports are too busy to hear you read back much. VNY seems busy, but try taxiing at LAX some time, when a clearance readback must be truncated to only your callsign and the transponder number, because they don't have time to listen to anything else.

 

Listening to a scanner and picking up any of the training programs or tapes from places like Sporty's will make it a lot easier and more familiar for you when you do fly into busy airspace.

 

You can also engage in table-top exercises with other students and an instructor; everyone sits around a table and talks using only the procedures and lingo that you'll use in the air. This seems silly at first, but it gives an opportunity to get instruction and feedback on what to do and what not to do, what to say, when to say it, and how, before you're spending a lot of money on an expensive machine (that's demanding most of your attention).

 

Remember, the aircraft makes the worst classroom. Choose your place of learning; save yourself some money and do it on the ground, before you get in the air.

[rotor91]

GOOD STUFF HAMMSTER! I honestly believe that visual training, rather than a book is the way to go! Something very complex as you can see from the video, and making it quite simple. Very well done!

 

Gotta love the GoPro camera's!

Cheers

Rob

R91

[aeroscout]

Not for nothing, but in busy center sectors your flying better be second nature, because if center calls you better be responding immediately, and you better not be missing any calls.