Professional Helicopter Instructors Making $200/Hour

[RockyMountainPilot]

Imagine this.

 

If helicopter pilots actually felt they had value, then the major players would pay for time building. Right now, why should they pay if they can still get you to pay for it yourself?

 

If flight Instructors made $200/hour, what do you think EMS pilots would make a year? $100K? Would you sign a 5 year contract to an EMS company if they gave you use of an R22 to build the 1,000 hours but only paid you $50K a year those first 5 years? I bet most pilots would. And most EMS companies would think they are getting a bargain.

 

They would probably be willing to take someone from scratch and say "Ok, you have good grades, you have a good driving record, you make good decisions, now lets make you an EMS pilot." They could send you to a school where you would train as an EMS pilot from day one. Private, Instrument, Commercial, Turbine, NVG, and focus on being an EMS pilot. At 1,000 hours, you will be ready to jump into a VFR ship single pilot.

 

However, as long as they can get you to pay for your schooling and hours, they will keep paying pilots poor wages.

[Rogue]

How about just starting with a paying job ! that seems to be a bigger concern to me, lack of entry level jobs.

 

this isn't a new subject by any means.... just people are finally willing admit there is a problem.

 

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I know plenty of people that are happy to make in the $50k range, they are more worried about how to get from 200 hours and NO JOB to 1000 hrs and a GOOD JOB.

 

Look, there isn't a trade in the world where people don't think they are worth more. Trying to get people in general to agree that "elitist" ( because that is how were viewed, especially when we want to be considered white collar ) pilots deserve more, good luck with that. Of course all the pilots will.

 

The problem is that you suggest that will somehow fix all the problems with the industry and how we train. I don't see it as the biggest issue.

[RockyMountainPilot]

No, that is supply and demand at work. The instructor flying for free has a need for something that the student provides - the hours that they log, presumably - and is prepared to exchange their time for those hours. It's an investment in that instructor's future, and it's theirs to make.

 

--Dave

 

Supply and demand is a very simplistic idea that does not work in the real world. It assumes that consumers are educated, and Ralph Nader can attest that consumers are not educated. The reason that Walmart is so successful is that consumers are not educated. If you buy an Audi and pay more money, you expect that because you know the Audi is a better product over a Ford Taurus. However, if a student who knows nothing about flying has two fully licensed flight instructors in front of them and one has 5,000 hours and charges $100 an hour and the other has 200 hours and charges $25 an hour, the student probably doesn't know enough to make an intelligent decision. If the $100/hour instructor is smart, they will also know how to sell themselves.

 

Supply and demand also assumes that the seller understands the value of the product or service they are selling. We all know of products that are overpriced and others that are underpriced. Our shop that does our maintenance charges $85 an hour. They are booked for 4 months solid. This can sometimes create a problem when we have a small issue to be fixed. We are willing to pay much more for more timely service. I have even said that to the owner. But they still keep the same shop rate because others charge the same rate. He does not know the value of his services. Therefore, supply and demand doesn't work. If he raised his prices and determined how much business he lost, he could work at establishing a supply and demand curve, but if he never changes it, he will never know the optimum value of his services.

 

Hasn't anyone taken a marketing class here?

[Oil Pilot]

Within the next decade, it is very likely that EMS and Oil Rig operators will all go to dual pilot. This will create a huge demand for pilots that can be hired as SIC with a commercial/instrument rating. If we don't do anything, these pilots will likely be making less than $30K a year for years. At least on the EMS side. It would probably take 5 years to get 1,000 hours in EMS because you don't fly that much. Oil rig flights probably much more.

 

I disagree with you on this. Lets come back to it in ten years and see which one of us is right.

 

FYI, SICs at PHI make more than 30k now.

 

Even if all of the oil contract companies went to dual pilot operations on the helicopters they don't currently have that way, you're not talking about a huge demand for new pilots and it's not something the smaller oil companies would accept.

[RockyMountainPilot]

I disagree with you on this. Lets come back to it in ten years and see which one of us is right.

 

FYI, SICs at PHI make more than 30k now.

 

Even if all of the oil contract companies went to dual pilot operations on the helicopters they don't currently have that way, you're not talking about a huge demand for new pilots and it's not something the smaller oil companies would accept.

 

PHI doesn't use VFR SIC's as far as I know.

 

This is not something that companies would have a choice to accept or not, but a regulatory change. There is a big push in the FAA and industry groups that carrying of passengers under any part save 91, to require dual pilots.

[adam32]

I do pay myself $200 an hour.

 

Trying to convince helicopter pilots they can get a lot more pay is like trying to convince a battered spouse that s/he is being battered.

 

Who would pay the difference? You think a tourist in Vegas or Hawaii would pay $200-400 more for their 1hr tour? Or the newspaper photo dude wanting some pics of town? How about the student that did the right thing and saved $50k for training, now has to save another $50k?

 

Maybe just get the Gubermint (aka taxpayer) to subsidize the entire helicopter industry? The FAA, EPA, DHS etc...already have WAY too much control over our lives, I would rather have them stay out of the marketplace altogether...

[RockyMountainPilot]

Who would pay the difference? You think a tourist in Vegas or Hawaii would pay $200-400 more for their 1hr tour? Or the newspaper photo dude wanting some pics of town? How about the student that did the right thing and saved $50k for training, now has to save another $50k?

 

Maybe just get the Gubermint (aka taxpayer) to subsidize the entire helicopter industry? The FAA, EPA, DHS etc...already have WAY too much control over our lives, I would rather have them stay out of the marketplace altogether...

 

 

Yes, the customer pays. People are willing to pay. its not a problem.

[adam32]

Yes, the customer pays. People are willing to pay. its not a problem.

 

Maybe in your little utopia, but not in the real world...

[ADRidge]

Yes, the customer pays. People are willing to pay. its not a problem.

 

Seems to me the ability to pay is the hurdle to overcome.

 

I do like your idea in theory, I just think 200/hr is excessive. 75/hr would be realistic, I think.

[RockyMountainPilot]

Maybe in your little utopia, but not in the real world...

 

 

Actually, it is my reality.

[yzchopper]

Everyone is stuck on this $200/hr figure and has forgotten what the original post stated:

For example, September 1st, 2010 would be $100, then 6 months later $150, and anther 6 months would be $200

As it is stated it is an example, not set in stone. You would work upto this amount. You have to work for it. I would say you have to meet some hr requirement along with the pay raise, not just 6months, then in another 6 months. I would recommend having employee evaluations every three to six months to justify the raises. That is what big businesses do. Nothing says you have start at or top out at those numbers either.

I have talked to several banks about this It is easier to get a $100K loan with a $100K earning potential, than $60K with a $35K earning potential and they do prefer you make more because it shows you have a better chance of paying back the loan. Along with the job paying you more you stand a better chance. A large loan, low paying job is a bad combination, the banks see this now with what happened with the housing industry, that is why it is so hard to get loans now.

I see the pros and cons with this but with everything in life that is the norm. I see more pro than con.

[Oil Pilot]

A large loan, low paying job is a bad combination, the banks see this now with what happened with the housing industry, that is why it is so hard to get loans now.

 

It's difficult to get loans now due to the fact that there are no federally backed loans for pilot education. It used to be fairly easy to get a private education loan to cover training costs, but those days are gone with the majority of the rest of the unsecured loans. You can thank the bank blowup partially for that, but you can also send out a nice big thank you to schools like Silver State for exploding the private education loan industry and then imploding themselves, leaving a lot of students in a position to declare bankruptcy or get loans forgiven due to lawsuits.

 

PHI does use VFR SICs on contract for Exxon in 206L4s.

 

Exactly what sector of the industry are you in that you "pay yourself" 200 dollars an hour?

 

I suppose if I only account for the hours I fly, I make 200 dollars an hour too.

[ADRidge]

YZ, RMP... I was the first reply to this thread and I'd like to clarify my opinion, as I think I might in part be responsible for the fixation on the figure... I guess I never really stated my opinion clearly enough. I'm totally in favor of better wages for qualified instructors. If you look at one of the links rogue posted, I mentioned my ideas about fixing the flight instruction industry. That includes bringing more high-time folks into flight instruction as a career instead of as "charity".

 

Your thoughts have merit, to be sure. But I see this as only part of the answer, not the end all, be all solution in itself. I think we need to focus on pt 91 operators... the folks who do random helicopter stuff... pipeline patrol, predator control, cattle mustering, tours, photo flights. If we can get a relationship between those types of operators and the quality flight schools across the nation (and for the most part, we all know which schools are great and which aren't) then we might find an hour-building job that doesn't involve flight instruction.

 

Assuming we do that, and make it a journeyman type job and put flight instruction back into the more capable and experienced hands of people who have the hours, but also more importantly, those who WANT to do it, this could become a feasible goal.

 

One of RMP's main points, and I think some other posters as well, seems to be that there are CFI's out there who are doing it because they have to, not because they want to. We've all either experienced this first hand, or we know someone who has and we've seen the results. That is what breeds these supposedly inferior CFI's.

 

The main hurdle I see is insurance. Everyone is insurable at a cost. The question is who has the least money to spend? Is it the company who hires the helicopter for contract x, or is it the guy/gal who wants to learn to fly? In my experience, it's the person wanting to learn to fly. Most photo people/ranches/whatever are really only paying for a few hours of work. They'd be more willing to eat additional cost than the person who is spending 65,000 right now and might be looking at 110,000 in the future. If we can convince the pt 91 operators with primarily piston aircraft to take on commercial pilots who show acceptable skill, those folks could one day build up enough hours and real-world experience to become very good CFI's worthy of the title and the wage RMP wants to bring.

 

I dunno, something to think about.

[ChopperJ]

I don't even know what to say, $200 an hour is ridiculous. I have struggled as a flight instructor to make enough to pay the rent but you can't make it all back in one year! It doesn't work that way. You pay for the service you receive. I haven't found ANY flight instructor worth that much.

Edited January 19, 2010 by HeloJVB

[Oil Pilot]

The big thing we all need to remember is there are not and probably never will be enough entry level jobs (Mustering, SIC, pipeline patrol, air photo) to keep all of the current low time guys employed and improve the instruction environment with more experienced instructors.

 

Most of those jobs just contract out because they don't need a full time pilot all of the time. It's awful hard trying to feed your family when you're only flying on a summer mustering job. So we're just exchanging one scraping by trying to feed your family aspect of the industry for another! Not only that, now we have to pay twice as much to get instruction in the first place to compete for the few part 91 jobs we can now do since flight instruction will be a higher time job.

 

Banks are sure going to be lining up to give 100k loans to people who will have to compete for a job even rarer than flight instruction and making crap wages doing it!

[ADRidge]

The big thing we all need to remember is there are not and probably never will be enough entry level jobs (Mustering, SIC, pipeline patrol, air photo) to keep all of the current low time guys employed and improve the instruction environment with more experienced instructors.

 

You're absolutely right. Either way, this is still a pyramid scheme. I don't have an answer for that. But I think if we could somehow shift the newly-minted pilots somewhere else, it'd make the model work. I hate to say it, but it's something we've all known (or should have) from day one... not everyone who wants to be a professional helicopter pilot will be one.

 

I dunno. I don't have any answers, only ideas.

[RockyMountainPilot]

I don't even know what to say, $200 an hour is ridiculous. I have struggled as a flight instructor to make enough to pay the rent but you can't make it all back in one year! My girlfriend is a Veterinarian and has a huge student loan, so she should charge $2000 to neuter a cat? It doesn't work that way. You pay for the service you receive. I haven't found ANY flight instructor worth that much.

 

That is because you have been brainwashed to believe that a flight instructor should make $35-$45 an hour. How can an inexperienced dance instructor charge $115 for a 45 minute lesson? Even the instructor that I found working from her home charged $60 an hour. These aren't competition winning dancers, they are newly minted and would be the equivalent of a new 200 hour CFI. People are willing to pay that much, so that is what they charge. I know people are willing to pay $100-$200/hour for flight training because that is what I charge and I make a living primarily as an instructor. I could make a lot more money if I worked more, but I prefer time off over money.

 

The big thing we all need to remember is there are not and probably never will be enough entry level jobs (Mustering, SIC, pipeline patrol, air photo) to keep all of the current low time guys employed and improve the instruction environment with more experienced instructors.

 

Most of those jobs just contract out because they don't need a full time pilot all of the time. It's awful hard trying to feed your family when you're only flying on a summer mustering job. So we're just exchanging one scraping by trying to feed your family aspect of the industry for another! Not only that, now we have to pay twice as much to get instruction in the first place to compete for the few part 91 jobs we can now do since flight instruction will be a higher time job.

 

Banks are sure going to be lining up to give 100k loans to people who will have to compete for a job even rarer than flight instruction and making crap wages doing it!

 

If pilots demanded more pay, then it would make it economically feasible and desirable for companies to pay for your time building. This is exactly like an Intern. No experience yet, so you work with us and under our guidance until you can go it alone. Many other industries do this because they want loyal people who will stay with their company for years to come. We can make this happen in aviation as well. In fact, it used to be this way. Airlines you to train pilots from scratch. Then they figured that the pilots would pay for it themselves, so they stopped the program.

[Oil Pilot]

If pilots demanded more pay, then it would make it economically feasible and desirable for companies to pay for your time building.

 

What? So if companies had to pay more for a pilot in the first place they would be more likely to want to spend even more money on the guys initial training?

 

Whatever you're smoking, I want some.

[RockyMountainPilot]

What? So if companies had to pay more for a pilot in the first place they would be more likely to want to spend even more money on the guys initial training?

 

Whatever you're smoking, I want some.

 

Please read all the posts of a thread before replying.

[permison]

Hey guys, look we all agree there is an issue here with the pay low time pilots receive, the job market, and available funding for training. These are important issues to almost all of us. Any chance we can focus on some constructive comments rather than turning this into a "Just Helicopters" type free for all. This is a serious issue and one that deserves serious discussion.

 

Not all ideas sound great when you first hear them. This has merit but needs to be fleshed out. Yeah $200 an hour is probably not the number but it's somewhere between that and what we get now. The only way we are going to change things is to have open and civilized debate about it. Basically if you don't have anything constructive to add shut the frack up.

[ADRidge]

Hey guys, look we all agree there is an issue here with the pay low time pilots receive, the job market, and available funding for training. These are important issues to almost all of us. Any chance we can focus on some constructive comments rather than turning this into a "Just Helicopters" type free for all. This is a serious issue and one that deserves serious discussion.

 

Not all ideas sound great when you first hear them. This has merit but needs to be fleshed out. Yeah $200 an hour is probably not the number but it's somewhere between that and what we get now. The only way we are going to change things is to have open and civilized debate about it. Basically if you don't have anything constructive to add shut the frack up.

 

Well said, sir.

[R22139RJ]

You will probably have a couple seconds to think it is a big deal.

 

Then I hope my ass will pucker like ol' sky king.

[SuperPilot]

RMP said-

"They would probably be willing to take someone from scratch and say "Ok, you have good grades, you have a good driving record, you make good decisions, now lets make you an EMS pilot." They could send you to a school where you would train as an EMS pilot from day one. Private, Instrument, Commercial, Turbine, NVG, and focus on being an EMS pilot. At 1,000 hours, you will be ready to jump into a VFR ship single pilot."

 

That is a BAD idea! One of the worst ones I have ever come across... here let me show you:

 

They would probably be willing to take someone from scratch and say "Ok, you have good grades, you have a good driving record, you make good decisions, now lets make you an Law Enforcement pilot." They could send you to a school where you would train as an Law Enforcement pilot from day one. Private, Instrument, Commercial, Turbine, NVG, and focus on being a Law Enforcement pilot. At 1,000 hours, you will be ready to jump into a VFR ship single pilot.

 

That is already being done and then you will get topics here like "what do other pilots think of EMS pilots......."

[Eric Hunt]

Rocky gets $200 an hour?

 

Pah! I get $406/hr for instructing. You are at the wrong school, Rocky.

[R22139RJ]

Rocky gets $200 an hour?

 

Pah! I get $406/hr for instructing. You are at the wrong school, Rocky.

 

I think charging $115 for a dance instructor and charging $200 an hour for ricky bad ass super pilot comes down to finding the right people to screw.

 

Times up, lets do this. I just made the call to my student to have $200 for tomorrows ground lesson. LLEEEEEEEEROOOOY nnnnnnJENKINS style. This forum is all talk. Lets see action.