Professional Helicopter Instructors Making $200/Hour

[RockyMountainPilot]

A couple things, it won't matter if the CFI is paid $200/hr or $15/hr when it comes to safety. And it won't matter to a bank if a guy has the "potential" to make $100k+ a year, they still won't give you a $100k+ loan unless you have equity, co-signers etc...

 

 

Why is it that as industry pay increases, safety increases? This is fact. You offer higher pay, the experience doesn't leave when it tires of low wages.

 

It is easier to get a $100K loan with a $100K earning potential, than $60K with a $35K earning potential.

 

Stop being a slave to the industries indoctrination.

[adam32]

Why is it that as industry pay increases, safety increases? This is fact. You offer higher pay, the experience doesn't leave when it tires of low wages.

 

It is easier to get a $100K loan with a $100K earning potential, than $60K with a $35K earning potential.

 

Stop being a slave to the industries indoctrination.

 

Go to a bank these days with that line and you will be laughed at...

 

Not a slave, people should just research to see what kind of career they are getting into. If they don't like it then stay in school and get a desk job...

[mechanic]

All I can say is its hard being an adult going through any type of training. Working and training is hard.

 

I have had the oppurtunity to know several Dr's through my business, brother in-laws brother in-law and co-workers brother in-law is a Dr.

 

Those students rack up some major school loans. One retired Dr told me if he had to take those loans that these kids are taking on he would have done something else. The weird thing is his son didn't follow him down the road to being a Dr. His son learned to fly helicopters and works for PHI. The Dr. said he thinks that being a pilot was a better return than going the route of Dr these days.

 

I guess he is right. What if you make it half way through to being a Dr and washout? You still have this hugh loan load to repay and no big paying job. I can relate Dr's to pilots. It's time consuming, you need a passion for it to be successfull and VERY expensive to get into, but the rewards can be great in time.

 

The best story I heard of was my ex co-workers brother in-law. This guys dad was a Dr, paid all his school all the way through to surgeon. Graduated with ZERO loan, worked his way through internship with a wife and kid driving a 200,000 mile Chevy Tahoe, making minimum wages. This guy was top 5% of all surgeons that year. The last 4 months of his intership he signed a letter of agreement to come to work at a Hospital close to me here out in the country. The hospital was paying him 4k a month just to think about coming to work for them. The first day they paid him a 50,000k sign on bonus and his SALARY IS 40,000k per MONTH! He turned down a Hospital in the Houston area for 1 Million a year so he could work in the same Hospital with his dad. He was to take his sign on bonus and special order one of those new Dodge Crew Cabs. His house they had plans drawn up for was 400,000 bucks.

 

As a great a story as that was how many kids go through and make being a Dr? What if they can't make it through internship with that loan load? How do they get loans of up to 250,000K?? But yet they do all the time. I think that the drive to be "what ever" your out to be will drive those to "Just Do It" and do what ever is required of them if they feel its worth it.

 

I think combining this with some sort of standard of college level education has already been proven that the banking industry will loan to these types of degrees and needs to be a major part of the solution. I don't mean a 4 year degree as the standard but a good solid Jr College type of education being the minimum and should be part of the solution. I have found that the Jr College level education seems to be the most economical type and beneficial training. All the core and electives should mesh well. No crazy electives should be allowed. But things such as basic electrical or hydraulics, robotics or the such..

 

Maybe combining some standard education that meshes well with aviation like meterology/weather, business, mechanical or aviation law for a few examples of Major/minor education paths would make obtaining loans easier.

 

Maybe dual rating education is the answer? Would help keep the costs down for sure. Banks would see that students are not locked into one field of aviation. There are way more college level fixed wing courses than rotorcraft. I spoke to a State of Texas Trade College, the Dean of the Dept expressed interest in having some sort of contract add on heli rating, but didn't think the college would go for a in house helicopter program.

 

I hope I have not skewed up my thoughts too much, lol..

 

I wish you success with this idea.

[RkyMtnHI]

Wow,

 

This is a great topic, and one that i knew would raise some eyebrows when it came up. When my concept of Aviation Futures was broached on another topic a few weeks ago one of my comments was that it is a complex idea and would be complicated and challenging to bring to fruition. In discussions about AF over the last year and a half the unreasonably low prices paid to instructors has come up a few times and the need for a solution was put high on the objective list. When CJ came into my office and discussed his ideas i was very excited that other people were thinking along the same lines, he had not heard of AF and yet was sitting there telling me about parts of it as he had been thinking of some of the same stuff (as i am sure many out there are). Do not misjudge this guy, he is very smart, and has been in the business his whole life and i believe sees the overall picture better than most. We are meeting later this week and i sincerely look forward to discussing this and other ideas with him (if anyone else wants to participate send me a pm).

 

Everyone that has posted here so far has made good comments, and i agree with almost all of them. I hope you will focus on the goal as a whole and not the $200 price tag CJ suggested for an hourly wage. I believe he picked that number as a starting place or "in a perfect world" because that is around what he makes. I totally agree with him on his concept and was extremely excited that others were seeing things that we had been discussing in our brainstorming sessions about AF. I have an instructor that teaches at my school that has 22,000 hours (he just retired from a major airline), he has about 1000 hours of RW time and has flown over 200 different types of aircraft including around 20 types of helos. He has been a CFII and has taught constantly for over thirty years, he charges $75 an hour for his time and NO ONE minds paying it (we do not add any to that to make it easier for our students to afford him). He has forgotten more than most instructors know and loves to teach. He and i have talked about this subject many times and agree that something has to be done. The current industry model as a whole needs some fine tuning and we are having to address that fact whether some wanted to or not.

 

I believe that CJ is also right that learning from people that have more knowledge and actually want to be teaching will get you to your goals quicker and make better/safer pilots. Is this the solution to the crisis we see our industry in right now, no, not the total fix, but it is piece of that solution and a step in the right direction and i applaud CJ for thinking out of the box and speaking out.

 

I hope this topic will continue to grow, and more of you will chime in, even if your thoughts might seem negative, it keeps us all thinking and we certainly haven't thought of everything. I can't wait to hear Mike's thoughts on the subject as he falls into that category that you probably couldn't afford to pay him what he's really worth.

 

I will close with this, as i said, CJ is a really smart guy, so clearly smart that it intimidated me a little when we met, most important, his intentions are pure.. he would gain nothing from his ideas except seeing our industry get better, we need more of that everywhere.

 

nuff said, i'm going back to bed.

 

dp

[Mikemv]

OK DP here goes! I also think this is a very good thread, started with extremely good intentions. The $200 number is not the most important element of the thread but has been viewed and responded to that way by some.

 

Flight Instructors and entry level pilots either FW or RW do not make a life sustaining level of pay let alone have a surplus to pay back student loans. We all recognize that as a problem.

 

The thought of Aviation Futures and increasing the quality of Safety, Training, Employment and Salaries with a logical and clear progression through a Helicopter Career is something that interest me and others.

 

HAI is coming up next month and DP and I will be spending some time together. Maybe Lyn, DP, CJ, myself and others can sit down and discuss ideas, thoughts and possible paths to solutions?

 

In the '80s I was paid $10 for formal, classroom Ground and $25/$30 for Flight Instruction. At that time, CFI's were not paid for pre and post Instruction. Things have changed thru 2 decades+ for CFIs! For the last 15 years or so I charged $100 for Instruction (ground was free) during long cross country flights with young/new CFIIs. This sounds like a lot but consider at this time that the Bell407 or Eurocopter EC120 time was FREE and I paid for hotels and meals along the way. I made some money but was giving back to the Industry at the same time. This is how I came to indentify the "Pilot Shortcomings" elements of previously posted items in threads about my Seminars. I want to state that during these flights, the pilots worked very hard to absorb everything and gain experience but I always "Out Worked" them because I felt that was part of my Instructor Responsibility. I put out the same effort whether it was for free or $100 because of my pride and approach to teaching.

 

There are many of us that have the knowledge, experience and time to work toward changing the Helo Industry. I am willing, as are others. Can I respectfully ask for positive approaches and comments to this subject of better pay for pilots?

 

I am looking forward to HAI and meeting many of you there. Be Safe & Positive, MikeMV

[Tom22]

I think $100 an hour is feasible for a CFI – if and only if you are good. To pay a CFI $200 an hour; however, I would expect more experience and education from an instructor. For example, I would expect the instructor hold an ATP certificate in addition to having a Ph.D. or at least a Masters degree in something related to aviation or education. People are going to want to see more credentials for that kind of money – just my thoughts.

[RockyMountainPilot]

I think $100 an hour is feasible for a CFI – if and only if you are good. To pay a CFI $200 an hour; however, I would expect more experience and education from an instructor. For example, I would expect the instructor hold an ATP certificate in addition to having a Ph.D. or at least a Masters degree in something related to aviation or education. People are going to want to see more credentials for that kind of money – just my thoughts.

 

The ATP is not a rating most pilots need. I don't have one and I never intend to get one. Possibly, if I end up getting a type rating someday, I might add it on because the type rating checkride counts as an ATP ride if you have the written done.

 

If you want a PhD, you will pay a LOT more than $200 an hour. Now you are talking about 8+ years of school and hundreds of thousands of dollars.

 

There are thousands of helicopter instructors who have the credentials right now, but many of them don't know how to instruct. The whole idea behind this is to bump up helicopter training to a more professional level.

 

Most students are taught to be pilots from day one. They train to be pilots through private, instrument, commercial, and then after their commercial, they fly for 10 hours from the IP seat, take the FOI & CFI written, and they are suppose to now teach? If someone comes to a school and they want to be a CFI, you train them to be a CFI from day one. Not a pilot with CFI as an after thought. This is like some of my college professors. PhDs even! They were very very smart people with advanced degrees, but they couldn't teach a dog to sniff butts! Those were the teachers who made learning difficult and not fun.

 

When I first got my CFI, I didn't know how to teach. I would talk and talk and talk, but never taught. Now I keep my mouth shut and teach more than I did when I wouldn't shut-up.

 

If you ask most new CFI's what power setting to establish when abeam the numbers on downwind, they can probably throw out an exact number. I have students ask me this all the time and I tell them "Use power settings to achieve a constant rate of descent to the threshold." They are forced to think for themselves. Giving too much instruction is the worst way to teach. You want critical thinkers and decision makers in the cockpit and not someone who memorizes numbers.

 

I think most people are reading my first post and they see $200 an hour and think that is crazy. For most new CFI's at present, that is probably true. However, I also mentioned an increase in the standards for CFI and making Helicopter Flight Instructors a truly professional career choice. Combing the training with a degree is a good idea, but I would never recommend an aviation degree. I have an aviation degree and it hasn't done a thing for me. No one wants to see an aviation degree, they want to see hours and ratings. If anything, it should be coupled with a backup degree in case you can't fly. Ideally, something in another industry in case of no jobs in aviation.

 

Within the next decade, it is very likely that EMS and Oil Rig operators will all go to dual pilot. This will create a huge demand for pilots that can be hired as SIC with a commercial/instrument rating. If we don't do anything, these pilots will likely be making less than $30K a year for years. At least on the EMS side. It would probably take 5 years to get 1,000 hours in EMS because you don't fly that much. Oil rig flights probably much more.

 

We need to change the industry now if it is ever going to be looked at as a white collar career. Today, it is still very much looked at as blue collar.

[Rogue]

Ideally if we had instructors of caliber worthy of $200 per then again ideally the insurance companies shouldn't have any problem insuring low timers for entry level jobs.

 

Lots of people out of work because there are no entry level jobs. Fix that and instructor wages will fix themselves. Yes I believe in free market.

 

I don't get why you bemoan the impotence of a degree but then go on to say it should be a white collar job, you are majorly contradicting yourself there.

 

I believe it to be a blue collar job and I'm definitely more than ok with that. I think if more people accepted that for what it is then there would be less whining about what they wish it was. Bottom line its a business. Every EMS pilot wants NVG and twin engines, again its a business bottom line is single engine VFR to maximize the profit.

 

Meh - with the exception of the lack entry level jobs and wet ink instructors the system isn't that bad, it is good at weeding out the weak mind you.

[R22139RJ]

If your instructor screws up and kills you, you will think it is a big deal.

 

I'll try not to screw up and kill my students. If my instructor did screw up and I died, I don't think i'll have the chance to think its a big deal, because I'll be dead.

[RockyMountainPilot]

Ideally if we had instructors of caliber worthy of $200 per then again ideally the insurance companies shouldn't have any problem insuring low timers for entry level jobs.

 

Lots of people out of work because there are no entry level jobs. Fix that and instructor wages will fix themselves. Yes I believe in free market.

 

I don't get why you bemoan the impotence of a degree but then go on to say it should be a white collar job, you are majorly contradicting yourself there.

 

I believe it to be a blue collar job and I'm definitely more than ok with that. I think if more people accepted that for what it is then there would be less whining about what they wish it was. Bottom line its a business. Every EMS pilot wants NVG and twin engines, again its a business bottom line is single engine VFR to maximize the profit.

 

Meh - with the exception of the lack entry level jobs and wet ink instructors the system isn't that bad, it is good at weeding out the weak mind you.

 

Instructor wages will not fix themselves. Supply and demand does not work in an industry when you have some instructors willing to backstab others and fly for free. In my opinion, those are the greedy instructors. They take food out of the mouths of the families of other instructors.

 

I never said a degree was not important(however, it might be impotent). I said an aviation degree is pretty much worthless. I know, because I have a BS in aviation. Not one employer has ever considered my degree. If I had the hours and experience, they would hire me. A degree that will get you a job outside of aviation is much much more important. Also, a degree does not make a job blue collar or white collar. A helicopter pilot is a white collar job by definition, but the wages are blue collar.

 

If more people accepted it? They do accept it! That is the problem! Less people need to accept the poor wages and start demanding more pay. I have always charged more than average and most students never balked. This is because people value your time more if you charge more. The pilots in this industry need to value their time more and stop making it difficult for other pilots to make a decent living.

[RockyMountainPilot]

I'll try not to screw up and kill my students. If my instructor did screw up and I died, I don't think i'll have the chance to think its a big deal, because I'll be dead.

 

You will probably have a couple seconds to think it is a big deal.

[adam32]

I know I'll be totally against any "mandates" or union takeovers of the helicopter industry...just look at the UAW and the automotive industry if you want an example...

[permison]

You will probably have a couple seconds to think it is a big deal.

 

Naw...I've been through a few wrecks. All I had time to think was "Aw sh..."

[RockyMountainPilot]

I know I'll be totally against any "mandates" or union takeovers of the helicopter industry...just look at the UAW and the automotive industry if you want an example...

 

Not from Detroit? I am. And for all the bad things about the UAW, the workers are much better off with them. And if you own a car, so are you.

[rotowing]

Greed!!! Look how short the lines have gotten at $35-$40 now and think how hard it was for you to pay what you did for your training. Pilots with years of experance don't make that much, even the ones getting shot at. At $200 an hr CFI's would most likly make less than they do now!

Edited January 18, 2010 by rotowing

[adam32]

Not from Detroit? I am. And for all the bad things about the UAW, the workers are much better off with them. And if you own a car, so are you.

 

Ha, too bad my DODGE was made in MEXICO! And yeah they do all kinds of good for the workers...but when they bankrupt an entire company and industry they don't help anyone but themselves...

 

I'll tell ya what, go try it. Go open a school and pay your instructors $100-200/hr and we will watch and see how long you stay in business...

 

And compare profits of union owned/ran auto companies (losing billions) to non-union companies (making billions)...

Edited January 18, 2010 by adam32

[Rogue]

Instructor wages will not fix themselves. Supply and demand does not work in an industry when you have some instructors willing to backstab others and fly for free. In my opinion, those are the greedy instructors. They take food out of the mouths of the families of other instructors.

 

I never said a degree was not important(however, it might be impotent). I said an aviation degree is pretty much worthless. I know, because I have a BS in aviation. Not one employer has ever considered my degree. If I had the hours and experience, they would hire me. A degree that will get you a job outside of aviation is much much more important. Also, a degree does not make a job blue collar or white collar. A helicopter pilot is a white collar job by definition, but the wages are blue collar.

 

If more people accepted it? They do accept it! That is the problem! Less people need to accept the poor wages and start demanding more pay. I have always charged more than average and most students never balked. This is because people value your time more if you charge more. The pilots in this industry need to value their time more and stop making it difficult for other pilots to make a decent living.

 

ah grasshopper, IF there were entry level jobs then instructors wouldn't be backstabbing and flying for free !

 

who's definition makes it white collar ? though there is a lot gray out there I would most definetly say that in most lines of work managers have degrees and the worker bees don't.

 

I say accept it because as long as management keeps our focus off the ball then that's what we'll get. If we quit arguing about EMS having twin engines and NVG and living in crappy trailer in Louisiana because IT IS WHAT IT IS then we can all focus our energies on being professional first and demanding professional wages second.

[Rogue]

In fact I believe it better to think of it as a blue collar job else you'll be fighting the same elitist fight that AOPA and general aviation is fighting. Heck you even back your argument with mention of UAW which is a blue collar job. Sorry but people just don't feel empathy for people with white collar jobs. Think about it, if you somewhere watching the news say in a bar or something and there was a story on about some blue collar stiff getting laid off most people would be saying "poor guy" same story about a white collar guy I believe you wouldn't hear much nice.

[Inferno]

And compare profits of union owned/ran auto companies (losing billions) to non-union companies (making billions)...

 

Sorry, I don't mean to nitpick, but almost every auto manufacturer was in the red last year (except Toyota who barely broke even...)

 

The unions may have been a contributing factor in the demise of US Auto, but another major contributing factor was a lack of foresight on consumer demands. Theres a reason Ford Europe is doing well, while dealers all across the us are closing down. They have a better selection of cars for the market. If ford started selling their Focus RS and the Diesel Focus that gets 70 MPG in the US, even with the unions, profits would go way up.

[RockyMountainPilot]

Ha, too bad my DODGE was made in MEXICO! And yeah they do all kinds of good for the workers...but when they bankrupt an entire company and industry they don't help anyone but themselves...

 

I'll tell ya what, go try it. Go open a school and pay your instructors $100-200/hr and we will watch and see how long you stay in business...

 

And compare profits of union owned/ran auto companies (losing billions) to non-union companies (making billions)...

 

Oh sure. It was the UAW that created all the problems. Not the executives in charge who failed to have any vision of what people wanted to buy.

 

Ford made it through the bad spot on their own. Is their union different then GM and Chrysler?

 

And non-union plants still benefit from the UAW. No one would work for $10 an hour non-union if they knew they could get a union job making $35 an hour. Even with all the dues.

[RockyMountainPilot]

In fact I believe it better to think of it as a blue collar job else you'll be fighting the same elitist fight that AOPA and general aviation is fighting. Heck you even back your argument with mention of UAW which is a blue collar job. Sorry but people just don't feel empathy for people with white collar jobs. Think about it, if you somewhere watching the news say in a bar or something and there was a story on about some blue collar stiff getting laid off most people would be saying "poor guy" same story about a white collar guy I believe you wouldn't hear much nice.

 

I'd rather know the skies are filled with well trained, professional, helicopter pilots than worry about empathy if i get laid off. In your story, both guys are without a job. However, the white collar guy had a better opportunity to establish financial security before being laid off. And he has a better chance of getting another well paying job.

[permison]

Back to the original topic. Can anyone tell me another industry where the least experienced professional trains the next? This is not how it is done in "most" other countries. I suspect the reason that the first real opportunity available to a freshly minted pilot is more a cost cutting measure than a logical thought process.

[adam32]

Back to the original topic. Can anyone tell me another industry where the least experienced professional trains the next? This is not how it is done in "most" other countries. I suspect the reason that the first real opportunity available to a freshly minted pilot is more a cost cutting measure than a logical thought process.

 

Would you rather have a 200hr fresh CFI flying you to the hospital with NVG's in the mountains? You gotta start somewhere, I don't have an answer but everyone can't have 3000hrs and an ATP from the beginning...

 

As far as the union thing...go try it and see how long your company will survive with $200/hr pilots...you will be the next one begging Uncle Sam for a handout, excuse me "loan".

 

Hyundai and VW also did just fine btw...

[RockyMountainPilot]

Would you rather have a 200hr fresh CFI flying you to the hospital with NVG's in the mountains? You gotta start somewhere, I don't have an answer but everyone can't have 3000hrs and an ATP from the beginning...

 

As far as the union thing...go try it and see how long your company will survive with $200/hr pilots...you will be the next one begging Uncle Sam for a handout, excuse me "loan".

 

Hyundai and VW also did just fine btw...

 

I do pay myself $200 an hour.

 

Trying to convince helicopter pilots they can get a lot more pay is like trying to convince a battered spouse that s/he is being battered.

[DaveKnell]

Instructor wages will not fix themselves. Supply and demand does not work in an industry when you have some instructors willing to backstab others and fly for free. In my opinion, those are the greedy instructors. They take food out of the mouths of the families of other instructors.

 

No, that is supply and demand at work. The instructor flying for free has a need for something that the student provides - the hours that they log, presumably - and is prepared to exchange their time for those hours. It's an investment in that instructor's future, and it's theirs to make.

 

--Dave