r22butters Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 There's no need to continue arguing!,...just vote! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick McWilliams Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Unfortunately voting does not determine facts. People are able to believe just about anything, and vote that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r22butters Posted July 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 (edited) Unfortunately voting does not determine facts. People are able to believe just about anything, and vote that way. This whole issue is about opinions! A reckless person, will be a reckless pilot, and a responsible person will be a responsible pilot. No amount of (or lack there of) flight hours will change that. Otherswise there would be no "pilot error" accidents above a certain number of hours, that's what the facts show. And that's my opinion,...crap! I'm not trying to start another four page debate here,...so please,...just vote! Edited July 20, 2011 by r22butters 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Posted July 21, 2011 Report Share Posted July 21, 2011 Too funny.. You’re thinking to small here bro… That is, why stop at tours? Howbout, can a 200 hour pilot fly fires? Can a 200 hour pilot sling logs? Whatabout, can a 200 hour pilot fly Donald Trump? Or, can a 200 hour pilot fly to an oil rig, find a bad guy, or follow a pipe? And, why not start a poll like; should the US government provide civilian flight training to willing students for free? Or, should all flight schools be required to guarantee employment after a student graduates? Let not forget, should insurance companies eliminate flight time requirements altogether? Should 206 time cost the same as an R22? Or, should 200 hour pilots dictate how the helicopter industry should operate? True, everyone is entitled to their opinion and people are free to believe what they want to believe… However, when discussing the helicopter business, whose opinion do you think should carry more weight, the experienced guys or inexperienced folks? Not long ago, a whole lot of people chose to ignore the opinions of the experienced and found them selves in a huge quagmire buried in debt… This is a fact, not an opinion.. The reality is opinions don’t mean cuss… It’s what you believe that counts. And, it’s having the ability to take those beliefs and turn them into results that really count…. Otherwise, you’re just dreaming…. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r22butters Posted July 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2011 I'm just interested in how my fellow pilots feel about flying tours, since sight-seeing flights pretty much make up the bulk of my experience,...and flying tours is the job I got into this to do. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helonorth Posted July 21, 2011 Report Share Posted July 21, 2011 (edited) The poll doesn't make much sense the way it is worded. To me, It seems like you are asking the same question twice (oh, I get it now). The real question, to me, is "can a pilot safely fly tours at 200 hours." I say, of course, yes. Another question: Can a pilot, at 200 hours, fly tours as safely as a 1000 hour pilot. We all know the answer is no. We also all know the answer is yes. Edited July 22, 2011 by helonorth 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r22butters Posted July 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2011 Temsco and Papillon seem to hire entry-level (official) Tour Pilots every year, starting at 1000hrs. Therefore, I figured that would be a good dividing line between experienced pilots (who are, or have been) in the Tour Industry, and the CFIs and Commercial Pilots below 1000hrs, who get to fly tours every so often for their school,...as well as, of course, that lucky bastard who gets hired every year at Old City (or any other low-time Tour Operator). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun Posted July 21, 2011 Report Share Posted July 21, 2011 How many roads must a man walk down. Before they call him a man. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clay Posted July 21, 2011 Report Share Posted July 21, 2011 How many roads must a man walk down. Before they call him a man. 200 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 flying tours is the job I got into this to do. Way cool, I go into this to fly tours as well!!! Unfortunately, it didn’t work out for me either. Lord knows I tried… Got my certificates and ratings along with an A&P and built time instructing as a CFI. Then I went to Guam and hung around until I begged my way onto a tuna boat flying a turbine… After that, I thought I was a shoe-in for the Hawaiian tours. So with roughly 1300 hours TT and 200 turbine, I pounded the pavement around the island of Kauai looking for a seat. Sadly, they laughed at my experience and told me to come back when I had an additional 1000 hours and then, -maybe.…. Since then, I’ve only went back to vacation.. Bummer, maybe later… Tell me, what have to done to achieve your goal? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r22butters Posted July 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 (edited) Way cool, I go into this to fly tours as well!!! Unfortunately, it didn’t work out for me either. Lord knows I tried… Got my certificates and ratings along with an A&P and built time instructing as a CFI. Then I went to Guam and hung around until I begged my way onto a tuna boat flying a turbine… After that, I thought I was a shoe-in for the Hawaiian tours. So with roughly 1300 hours TT and 200 turbine, I pounded the pavement around the island of Kauai looking for a seat. Sadly, they laughed at my experience and told me to come back when I had an additional 1000 hours and then, -maybe.…. Since then, I’ve only went back to vacation.. Bummer, maybe later… Hawaii is the pinnacle of the Tour Industry. Maybe you should try a slightly lower rung, like Tempsco or Papillon. A company in NYC told me they liked my resume, but couldn't hire below 1000hrs. Try places like that,...1300hrs and 200 turbine, that was Maverick's minimums for the first few years I was looking. Kauai,...I couldn't even get a job at Pizza Hut over there,...and I had experience too! Tell me, what have to done to achieve your goal? Back in high school and college I worked at Round Table Pizza. I started as a bus boy, then I moved up into the kitchen, where I worked my way through the various stations, then I worked the register, then phones, finally I made it up to manager. Eventually I took a pay cut, and became a delivery boy (because that's the job I really wanted). Some jobs are worth the journey,...some are not, and as I wrote in another post (somewhere out there), a job flying Tours isn't worth what it takes to get one! However,...I don't really understand what my interest in knowing what my fellow pilots think about a 200hr pilot's ability to fly Tours, safely, has to do with what I am (or am not) willing to do for a job? Edited July 22, 2011 by r22butters 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copterkeith06 Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 r22butters- How many hours do you have ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r22butters Posted July 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 r22butters- How many hours do you have ? 649 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wally Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 (edited) Could a 200 hour pilot fly a "tour" profile safely? Certainly, and the FAA expects it to be so in issuing that "license to learn" that says "commercial certificate". Next time you're in for surgery, refuse the board certified surgeon and opt for the intern. Refuse to allow the experienced surgeon into the operating theater, have the intern do it "single pilot". Edited July 22, 2011 by Wally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helonorth Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 Why are we always comparing helicopter piloting to medicine? I realize that both jobs hold peoples lives in their hands, but as far as the training and complexity of the job, flying a helicopter VFR is not much more difficult than driving a car. In many ways, it's easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r22butters Posted July 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 Why are we always comparing helicopter piloting to medicine? I realize that both jobs hold peoples lives in their hands, but as far as the training and complexity of the job, flying a helicopter VFR is not much more difficult than driving a car. In many ways, it's easier. Yes, and now it seems flying Tours is as hazardous as having your appendix taken out! ,...awh man,...here we go again. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wally Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 Why are we always comparing helicopter piloting to medicine? I realize that both jobs hold peoples lives in their hands, but as far as the training and complexity of the job, flying a helicopter VFR is not much more difficult than driving a car. In many ways, it's easier. Medicine is an imperfect analogy as there's no apples and apples comparison between a commercial pilot's formal training and the 8+ years of formal training of a physician. What suggests the example to my mind is that the people who determine acceptable risk to both professions, which defines regulation/protocols/SOP/GOMs used to define how and when each does the job, are not the people producing the revenue. And that's the real reason 200 hour pilots are so rare in tours... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbo2181 Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 Anyone that has been in this industry more than a year has met a 200 hour pilot they would ride with and a 5000 hour pilot they would not. It's not the hours its the person. Unfortunately insurance companies haven't found a way to judge people. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 Hawaii is the pinnacle of the Tour Industry. Maybe you should try a slightly lower rung, like Tempsco or Papillon. A company in NYC told me they liked my resume, but couldn't hire below 1000hrs. Try places like that,...1300hrs and 200 turbine, that was Maverick's minimums for the first few years I was looking. I gotta hand it to ya, your samarium is up there with the best of em.. Just in case you’re not trying to be sarcastic, my effort to be a tour pilot was back in early 90’s. You can do the math… And yes, I have more then enough hours to meet the minimums for Temsco, Papillion, NYC, Mavericks, and Hawaii….. Combined…. Thanks for the advice, tho.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdminLB Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 As a 5800 hour pilot I voted yes. I do however apply the caveat that it must be the right person. It would have to be a mature, responsible, safety conscious, predictable, honest, hard working pilot with average to excellent stick skills, good judgement and a positive attitude. If a 200 hour CFI can safely teach a new student how to autorotate the helicopter......surely he/she can take off from a helipad with a few pax, fly a short specified route, then return to the helipad and land. C'mon......it ain't rocket science. You would not believe what I was doing at less than 200 hours TT and only about 90 in a helicopter as a Commercial/CFI. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r22butters Posted July 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 I gotta hand it to ya, your samarium is up there with the best of em.. Just in case you’re not trying to be sarcastic, my effort to be a tour pilot was back in early 90’s. You can do the math… And yes, I have more then enough hours to meet the minimums for Temsco, Papillion, NYC, Mavericks, and Hawaii….. Combined…. Thanks for the advice, tho.. Just in case you were not being sarcastic when you said, you got into this to fly Tours, I must say I am curious to know why someone with your qualifications is not doing that now? What suggests the example to my mind is that the people who determine acceptable risk to both professions, which defines regulation/protocols/SOP/GOMs used to define how and when each does the job, are not the people producing the revenue. And that's the real reason 200 hour pilots are so rare in tours... Most likely the risk to the million dollar aircraft, I suspect? If flying Tours was the "sucky", low-paying (where you could make more money at McDonalds) job that nobody wanted to do, and A-Stars and Jet Rangers cost the same as an R22,...I bet we'd be seeing 200hr pilots flying Tours everywhere. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trans Lift Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 I must say I am curious to know why someone with your qualifications is not doing that now? I presume he found a better, higher paying job!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 I've flown helicopters for 41 years. A 200 hour pilot can safely fly tours if given an adequate helicopter for the job and clear Standard Operating Procedures (SOP's). "Adequate helicopter" in this context means enough horsepower and a reliable turbine engine. "Clear SOP's" means "do this and don't do that" in writing and accompanied by daily leadership. As for flying skill, in my experience it tends to plateau at about 500 hours and, after that, one simply gains specialized job knowledge (off shore, long line, mountain operations, camera, customer relations, etc). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 (edited) As a 5800 hour pilot I voted yes. I do however apply the caveat that it must be the right person. It would have to be a mature, responsible, safety conscious, predictable, honest, hard working pilot with average to excellent stick skills, good judgement and a positive attitude. If a 200 hour CFI can safely teach a new student how to autorotate the helicopter......surely he/she can take off from a helipad with a few pax, fly a short specified route, then return to the helipad and land. C'mon......it ain't rocket science. You would not believe what I was doing at less than 200 hours TT and only about 90 in a helicopter as a Commercial/CFI. Not rocket science, I 100% agree. Shoot, a newly certified private pilot with 60 hours can do the same given the same set of character traits. Furthermore, private pilots give rides safely all the time but is that the real question here? Sure, a 200 hour can fly a tour. However, a tour where? Are you saying it would be appropriate for a 200 hour pilot to fly tours over the Grand Canyon or a volcano in Hawaii or a glacier in Alaska? How about Niagara Falls, NYC or somewhere in the Rockies? As initially stated, are we talking about giving rides over a beach or a legitimate helicopter tour operation? In my book, there’s a huge difference…. Furthermore, are you contending the advertised minimum requirements for a Canyon pilot or Hawaiian tour pilot are that far off base? Maybe I should’ve just added my own caveat to the question…… Can a 200 hour pilot fly tours, safely? As long as he has both of his arms and legs. Otherwise, I'd say no….. Edited July 23, 2011 by Spike 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 I presume he found a better, higher paying job!! Yep. Glad someones paying attention... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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